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Topic: Do grands increase in value over time?  (Read 16325 times)

Offline Rockitman

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Do grands increase in value over time?
on: October 12, 2004, 06:12:41 AM
Was at the local fair last night and a piano dealer had some Yamaha baby grands on display.  Of course they were on sale for the fair.   Really liked the GC1 (5'3") and it was on sale for $14500.  First of all, does this price seem reasonable or can I do better with another brand or dealer?  
He then showed me a chart that tracked the value of previous Yamahas from years past, that showed the original price and the price they are worth today.  If it's true, buying a grand piano would seem like a solid investment.  Just wondering if you all agree that they do in fact appreciate over time.  

Offline xvimbi

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #1 on: October 12, 2004, 06:28:31 AM
Quote
Really liked the GC1 (5'3") and it was on sale for $14500.  First of all, does this price seem reasonable or can I do better with another brand or dealer?

If you are looking for investments, there are better options. Vintage Port, to me, seems more reliable than investing in a $14,500 piano.

If you plan on actually playing on a piano, its purchase must primarily be driven by how it sounds amd how it feels. Therefore, the question "can I do better with another brand" is not a good approach, unless you LIKE a piano from a different manufacturer better. You may compare dealers though, but since you can't buy the same piano from different dealers (even two pianos from the same series will sound different) you still have to find the ONE that you like best, independent of the dealer.

Quote
He then showed me a chart that tracked the value of previous Yamahas from years past, that showed the original price and the price they are worth today.  If it's true, buying a grand piano would seem like a solid investment.  Just wondering if you all agree that they do in fact appreciate over time.

I think, only the really good pianos appreciate over time. The really good ones, however, start at around $60k. I don't think low-end pianos are good investments.

Offline Rockitman

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #2 on: October 12, 2004, 07:15:01 AM
I'm sorry, I should have been more specific in my question.  I am brand new to the piano shopping world.
I am an advanced player and am very tired of my Baldwin spinet and my yamaha S90 synth.  I want a grand dammit!!  :)
Have browsed here since my last post and have already picked up much but still have much to learn.
Basically, I guess I'd like to know what you and others think of the Yamaha product.  If I am looking for a new baby grand, and I'm looking to spend up to $15,000, what other brands and models would you suggest I look at besides Yamaha.  
I liked the GC1's action, it's tone was adequate, (although I wish the lower end had more), but what can you expect for a 5'3" piano?  

Offline donjuan

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #3 on: October 12, 2004, 08:20:23 AM
Rockitman, which country do you live in?  If you live in the US, I would say $14500 is a horrible price for a GC1.  If you live in Canada, I would say $14500 is an average price for a GC1.  

Now, I hope you realize the GC1 doesnt have a full sostenuto pedal- only a bass sustain.  I went with a C2, and got it for $18000 canadian, which is what? $12000 american? Make sure you arent getting ripped off, because those smooth talking salespeople will jump at every oppurtunity.

Yeah, the bass notes on the GC1 are not very deep.  I actually spent a long time on one when I was looking for my grand.  Play a C series, like the 5'3'' C1.  The bass is much more definitive, even though the piano is the same size.  It's important to consider the woods used in the piano.  Personally, I like tend to like pianos made with lots of beech (the sound is usually warm and resonant).    

If you like great tone, you may also want to check out Petrof Grands from the Czech Republic- they have my favorite tone of all grands I have played.  it is very bell like in the high notes and thunderous in the low end.

I agree 100% with xvimbi on this one.  Only the best grand pianos will appreciate in value.  and, this requires you to maintain it to super strict standards.  It takes a lot of experience and dedication to invest in musical instruments.  maybe you shouldnt jump from taking care of a crappy spinet to a 9' Steinway Grand, so take steps, and if you prove to be good at it, go for it!  Believe me, the GC1 will most definately NOT appreciate in value, being very cheap in workmanship, materials, and reputation.  I think you will be very dissapointed with it and wanting to sell in a matter of 3 years, tops.
donjuan      

Offline Axtremus

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #4 on: October 12, 2004, 06:29:00 PM
Rockitman,

1. NO, pianos do NOT appreciate, in general, over time. It's like asking if cars appreciate in value over time -- only 0.0000001% of cars do that as collector's items. So it is with pianos. (OK, may be I exagerated with the 0.0000001% figure, but you get the point.) I am pretty sure that the GC1 will NOT appreciate over time. If most pianos appreciate over time, then the dealers should just lock the pianos up in the warehouses and let them "appreciate."

2. Assuming 15,000 US Dollar budget in the US, brand new, you might be able to get a black Kawai RX-2 (5'10") or slightly larger Korean-made grand pianos (Young Chang/Pramberger, Samick/Knabe). The Czech-made Petrof V, Petrof IV, and Estonia-made Estonia-165 may also be worth looking at, but they are harder to find than the Japanese and Korean instruments because they don't produce as many pianos as the Japanese the Koreans do, and they have fewer dealers as well. You can use the RX-2 as a baseline to compare with the other options. If you want Yamaha, up your budget to get a C3 (6'1") or better (or at least find one a play it for comparison).

3. If you disclose your general location (e.g., US West Cost, US North East, state of Illinois, etc.), then people can better help point you to dealers that carry the different brands.

Good luck.

Offline Rockitman

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #5 on: October 13, 2004, 04:57:19 AM
Thanks both of you for the wonderful information.  I should have known that half of the dealer's shpeel is a bunch of phony baloney.  
Now that I have found this forum, I will take my time and learn.  Impulse buying is not what I want to do.  I need to "see the world" before I settle on something like this.  
I live in central California and that piano at the fair was the first grand I ever tested.  
I play classical music and it is very limiting, playing on a synth, although it beats the hell out of my spinet.  
There is a new plug board coming out from Yamaha that is the talk of the town regarding acoustic piano voices.  It's sampled from a concert grand CIIIS and I guess I'll just spend the $300 for now and see how it sounds.  
I have had the opportunity to play on a grand at a local hotel and it is just so much more rewarding than what I have at home.  The "power" feeling is incredible.  
My living room is not extraordiarily large, so I don't believe anything over 6' would be feasible but one day,,,, one day.

Offline donjuan

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #6 on: October 13, 2004, 05:15:41 AM
Quote
Thanks both of you for the wonderful information.  I should have known that half of the dealer's shpeel is a bunch of phony baloney.  
Now that I have found this forum, I will take my time and learn.  Impulse buying is not what I want to do.  I need to "see the world" before I settle on something like this.  
I live in central California and that piano at the fair was the first grand I ever tested.  
I play classical music and it is very limiting, playing on a synth, although it beats the hell out of my spinet.  
There is a new plug board coming out from Yamaha that is the talk of the town regarding acoustic piano voices.  It's sampled from a concert grand CIIIS and I guess I'll just spend the $300 for now and see how it sounds.  
I have had the opportunity to play on a grand at a local hotel and it is just so much more rewarding than what I have at home.  The "power" feeling is incredible.  
My living room is not extraordiarily large, so I don't believe anything over 6' would be feasible but one day,,,, one day.

oh dear god!! whatever you do, DONT take the gc1 deal! it is a bleeping ripoff!!! (Now, I know the kind of currency we are talking)

Seriously, have a look at Petrof.  I bet you could find a 5'3'' grand for the same price as the gc1, or lower.
AND believe me, IT IS WORTH IT, if you find the right kind.

You could also take a look at the 5'8'' Yamaha C2.  (But try not to get it from that place that is trying to get you to buy the gc1- check other towns, make sure there isnt a monopoly on yamaha in your area.)
donjuan

Spatula

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #7 on: October 14, 2004, 04:44:57 AM
Thanks both of you for the wonderful information.  I should have known that half of the dealer's shpeel is a bunch of phony baloney.  
Now that I have found this forum, I will take my time and learn.  Impulse buying is not what I want to do.  I need to "see the world" before I settle on something like this.  
I live in central California and that piano at the fair was the first grand I ever tested.  
I play classical music and it is very limiting, playing on a synth, although it beats the hell out of my spinet.  
There is a new plug board coming out from Yamaha that is the talk of the town regarding acoustic piano voices.  It's sampled from a concert grand CIIIS and I guess I'll just spend the $300 for now and see how it sounds.  
I have had the opportunity to play on a grand at a local hotel and it is just so much more rewarding than what I have at home.  The "power" feeling is incredible.  
My living room is not extraordiarily large, so I don't believe anything over 6' would be feasible but one day,,,, one day.

Kind of interesting that you mention about impulse buying because that is DEFINATELY NOT the strategy in investing in a new piano.  It's just like hopping onto a car dealership and blindfolding yourself and let the salesman choose for you.

Always be open to as many resources as possible (like this forum) because I wouldn't be surprised if your next purchase is a "jewel in the hidden closet".

And always test out the piano first (like don't bid $10000 for some what looks like an awesome deal on Ebay for crying out loud, even if it's a Steinway), because you have no clue who that person is etc.

I'm sure you're alread smarter than what I mentioned, but have also a look in the newspaper classifieds etc.  ".  Also consider what colour looks best in your living or music or whatever room.  because you want your piano to be a jewel of the crown, not a pile of brown dog spit junk that takes up half the house everytime you enter that room.

Yeah so I guess just use common sense.  And also be adventurous in your brands, don't be just limited to Steins and Yamas...although you should consult with your references before buying some exotic brand like "ABC ACME piano" or whatever.

Happy piano hunting!   

Offline ghostclaws

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #8 on: March 18, 2005, 08:24:28 AM

<<Now, I hope you realize the GC1 doesnt have a full sostenuto pedal- only a bass sustain.  I went with a C2, and got it for $18000 canadian, which is what? $12000 american? Make sure you arent getting ripped off, because those smooth talking salespeople will jump at every oppurtunity.>>

donjuan:
You mentioned that you got a C2 for CA$18,000. Which part of Canada are you from? I live here in Vancouver and Tom Lee recently quoted me CA$24,000 for a brand new one. When did you buy yours?
Thanks in advance!

GC

Offline donjuan

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #9 on: March 19, 2005, 12:14:53 AM
Ghostclaws:
I bought mine from St. Johns Music in Calgary.  They are not allowed to quote prices over the phone, but the guy told us he would make the trip to Calgary worth it. (and he absolutely did!) ;)  this was about 2.5 years ago.

Offline jr11

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #10 on: March 20, 2005, 02:28:44 AM
He then showed me a chart that tracked the value of previous Yamahas from years past, that showed the original price and the price they are worth today.  If it's true, buying a grand piano would seem like a solid investment.  Just wondering if you all agree that they do in fact appreciate over time.  

There are better places to put your money, but a good piano should hold it's value. 'Increasing' in value does not necessarily mean keepin gup with inflation though.

Some dealers have a buy-back guarantee in which they will give you the full price back on what you paid for the piano when you trade up a few years from now. Good deal.

You should be aware that the Yamaha products built today are not the same pianos of a few years ago. Now is the time to shop with eyes closed to brand names, and nation of manufacture. 'nuff said.

Offline pianowelsh

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #11 on: March 22, 2005, 06:07:53 PM
I can only say that it seems to be the gen trend that they atleast hold their value if they are quality instruments (and maintained properly). My old petrof upright was bought ages and ages ago for 2300 and is now around 3500 in current book price which ok over a long period is not much but it is an investment of sorts. BUY PETROFS theyre great!!! :D

Offline brokenagraffe

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #12 on: March 23, 2005, 07:41:53 AM
oh yea.. petrofs are great. i have a mahogany petrof baby grand (5' 6"). the price has gone up about 7-8k from when my grandmother bought me it 5 years ago.

Offline pianowelsh

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #13 on: March 25, 2005, 05:53:05 PM
thou shalt not covet brokenagraffes piano! thou shant!!!! :-[ :'(

Offline haarmonika

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #14 on: March 28, 2005, 09:39:36 PM
hi brokenagraffe - dan-san
We should tell them about the Mozart House that we have in Hawaii.
My cousin in Japan recently wanted to buy a grand, and he left it up to me to choose one for him.  There is a world-class piano tuner named Yoshi Nishimura - who has a whole showroom named Mozart House, that is full of various pianos on a gr8 deal.  Mr. Nishimura is annually asked to go on trips around the world to tune for some of the greats, such as Ashkenazy.
I played through all of his pianos and I came across a beautiful white Petrof Grand (which was shipped to Japan) - since it was a good deal alltogether.  I have a black Baldwin Grand w/ a conductor's signature inside. 
I think you should choose your own piano - based on how you enjoy performing on it.

Offline mainelymusic

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #15 on: March 29, 2005, 10:58:11 PM
I also do not think that you were offered a good deal, actually, I think the price you were quoted was very high. 15K can get you a nice instrument.  How do you feel about a used piano?  If you like Yamahas', see about a used C series piano.

After a long search, I have decided on a Petrof, so I would also suggest tahat you try a Petrof grand.  I found the sound to be richer than a Yamaha (and I've ALWAYS been a Yamaha fan!)  and the action to be more expresive.

Good luck!

Offline Glyptodont

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #16 on: April 30, 2005, 12:55:30 PM
Let me take this interesting question a slightly different way.

How do new piano prices change over the decades? 

We purchased a Korean-made 5'8" grand piano in 1990.  I have the exact date because I came upon the receipt recently when looking for something else.

We paid about $7500 in 1990.  Recently I was at a big piano dealer where I take my lessons. I went around noting the prices.  I would guess a comparable new piano today would be about double that price. That is after 15 years. 

They have Yamaha grands priced in about the low and mid $20,000 bracket.  Low- cost small grands are about $14,500  -- a Young Chang, for example.  This can be a little misleading, because I am talking sticker price, and the dealer may trade down a bit to close the sale.

So over the years, they don't seem to get any cheaper.  The other responses are right--  replacement cost will go up, but resale value of pianos is probably going to go down as they age.

Offline donjuan

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #17 on: April 30, 2005, 02:48:48 PM
We paid about $7500 in 1990.  Recently I was at a big piano dealer where I take my lessons. I went around noting the prices.  I would guess a comparable new piano today would be about double that price. That is after 15 years. 
Inflation can do a lot to a price tag in 15 years.  You know, there was also a time when you could buy a decent car for $200, or a hamburger for 10 cents.  I think your experience sounds more like the changing value of a dollar over the past little while, rather than the actual value of a piano.  $7500 today is not nearly worth $7500 15 years ago.   

Offline lagin

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #18 on: April 30, 2005, 03:58:20 PM
I bought my 5'8 yamaha grand piano used, for $16,000 Canadian, so definitely do not spend $14,500 on a 5'3, especially when that's American money.  I had a piano tuner track it down for me and check it out.  She found it at a reputable music store.  I had them put it on hold, went down and played it, and now I'm in love ;D.  Try asking some tuners if they would do this for you.  They might charge, but being that this was my own personal tuner, who is a great gal, she did it for free.
Christians aren't perfect; just forgiven.

Offline Rockitman

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #19 on: June 03, 2005, 03:54:01 PM
My search is over.
I know I started this thread a long time ago.  I took the advice of many of you and finally found a Petrof dealer and fell in love with a III Majesty in ebony gloss and have just purchased it.   I even got this big beast at the price range I originally stated.   Its sound beats the heck out of the Bostons, Yammies, Pearls, Kawais that I've tried.  The piano sings!   The action is a bit heavy but I think that is good for me technique wise.  Don't want the fastest action in the world as I would suffer if I had to play on another grand that didn't have it.   
I've played on this piano for a good 3 hours total now and the first thing I noticed is that there is an una corda pedal and I need to learn to start using it!
I've been playing on a synth for the last 2 years that only has a sustain pedal and this Petrof is just plain overpowering!  Anything PP or below definitely needs the Una Corda.  The bass is thunderous too.   I can only imagine what it's going to sound like in my home.  Probably shake the windows like my home theatre. 

I'm in piano heaven!    I can't wait for delivery.   

Have already signed up with a teacher and am going to pick up the pace,  practice wise.   

Offline LJC

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Re: Do grands increase in value over time?
Reply #20 on: June 03, 2005, 08:25:33 PM
Rockitman, Congrats. While I do not think a piano ought to be considered an investiment you may be interested to know that I bought a new Yamaha C3 in 1982 and paid about 9K including NY sales tax which was around 7 1/2% at that time. I sold this piano a few months ago for 12K. So I think I got my money's worth if not quite what a true investment would yield.
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