Ways to join LH and RH.

[gleeok]

So I can do LH perfectly, and then RH hand too, but joining them is a pain! Because the LF arpeggios are not like anything I've played so far, but oh they sound wonderful.

I've been playing around with some ways to bake this beautiful cake a little faster than just practice the whole thing and then try to mindlessly join hands.

First I tried highlighting reference points in the sheet for the Lh, to play with more accuracy:



After a while I decided this method was too technical and was slowing me down and distracting me, leading to poor tempo and less concentration.

Then I tried something I had already done but not realizing a detail. Using the handy built-in recorded in my keyboard I recorded the left hand at normal speed and set it to play, at the same moment I did the right hand (manually) and it came out like a charm. Then I figured out "What if I JUST play LH without thinking much about it and follow with RH, Just like with the recorder?" Well I did it, and seems to be a much faster method.

Now...Theres only the need to adjust a bit and ..well. practice : P.

But I'm not dropping the highlighter method but I guess its only useful at a very initial stage.

I bet these are not unheard of strategies, have you had these "strategic" moments and took different approaches and ways to learn a piece/difficult passage? Mind sharing : P ?

* This piece is "Canon in D (arr. by Lee Galloway)" *

[ajspiano]

For you, I would probably say "cycle" it in minim length groupings (try crotchets if this is too hard, but they won't cycle very well for the LH). Slow enough that you can play it both physically and mentally fluent (which may be really slow at first for you) - no stalling. A few correct repetitions and you should be able to speed up.

Just think, you can play it faster separately right? SO, your primary objective HT is to coordinate your hands perfectly, speed is not a factor you know you can play it fast.. get them coordinated and speed will come easily if your separate work is adequate.

https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.2 - HS cycling explained - yours will be slightly different because its HT and for coordination not HS for technique.

If the coordination is still problematic, "drop" the RH notes in 1 at a time with each repetition while keeping the LH consistent and complete for each minim cycle.

Cover 2 bars worth in minims, then connect them so you have 2 separate segments 1 bar in length, then the whole 2 bars..  then do another 2 bars, connect to have 4..  etc. Consider that you may need to do overlapping of the connections..  so you practice bars 1-2, then 2-3, then 3-4, then 1234, rather than just 12, 34, 1234.

EDIT:
Also, whats your LH fingering?

[hfmadopter]

For you, I would probably say "cycle" it in minim length groupings (try crotchets if this is too hard, but they won't cycle very well for the LH). Slow enough that you can play it both physically and mentally fluent (which may be really slow at first for you) - no stalling. A few correct repetitions and you should be able to speed up.

Just think, you can play it faster separately right? SO, you're primary objective HT is to coordinate your hands perfectly, speed is not a factor you know you can play it fast.. get them coordinated and speed will come easily if your separate work is adequate.

https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.2 - HS cycling explained - yours will be slightly different because its HT and for coordination not HS for technique.

I agree though never called it this ! What I really agree with is slow playing, as slow as is needed to put the two hands together, it could be agonizingly slow at first. But this is the most sure route, IMO.

[j_menz]

I still don't understand why people don't just learn pieces HT from the start, and this is only confirming me in that view.

I can see that there is some use for HS for short technically challenging small bits, but whole pieces???

[ajspiano]

I still don't understand why people don't just learn pieces HT from the start, and this is only confirming me in that view.

I can see that there is some use for HS for short technically challenging small bits, but whole pieces???

Its because if you are not given any tools or technique in your lessons entire pieces present an initial HS challenge. That was certainly my experience, as well as being not what I'd do anymore.

When I say "assuming HS work is adequate" its not suggesting that one should've spent too much time playing it over and over HS..  just that you should have identified whether or not you have the technical capacity to play HS, and if not practiced it first.

If you read up on the bernhard/chang process (and think about it - not just assume its a gospel that applies everywhere) it can be generalised to "take X number of bars for study, resolve any HS technique issues if they exist, put together.. move onto next set of bars"

Bernhard openly says "identify whether there are issues, if there aren't any don't waste your time practicing that part"

..and since as a teacher I'm practically a Bernhard copy (minus a crapload of experience) now i tend to spout his opinions and posts a lot..

I tend to accept his perspective (subject to testing obviously) most times based on his bibliography..

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=5298.msg132846#msg132846

[outin]

I still don't understand why people don't just learn pieces HT from the start, and this is only confirming me in that view.

I can see that there is some use for HS for short technically challenging small bits, but whole pieces???

In a way I agree, because for me it works best to start HT. This doesn't mean that I don't need HS, but I do both at the same time. I found starting hands separate tedious and it was difficult to find the correct rhythm (so much counting needed). Of course it depends on the piece too.

Maybe if I was more obsessed with speed I'd do more HS, but for me accurate is more important than fast. Even if I still tend to try to play real tempo too soon...

[gleeok]

EDIT:
Also, whats your LH fingering?

Here:

[ajspiano]

..*fingering*..

I would possibly consider using your thumb in a few places to facilitate easier leaps at the harmonic changes..

such as, from the beginning of the show passage.. 52121251, 5..  etc.

..where the leaps are octaves this may be more practical.

[gleeok]

I can see that there is some use for HS for short technically challenging small bits, but whole pieces???

Well, at least in my case its not exactly the whole piece, note by note HS and then HT. I just like to get as polished as possible with the left hand, or right hand, depending of which one presents more challenge for me, and then join them right way. But this is very dependent on the piece. I remember  easier pieces where I would prefer to go HT right way. I guess it depends of the piece and who is practicing in the end.

I value speed because accuracy is already built-in my method (at least what I believe), thats that "special" time where I stop and do left or right hand solo to make sure I'll be doing the right thing when I speed up (if the part is problematic).

[gleeok]

I would possibly consider using your thumb in a few places to facilitate easier leaps at the harmonic changes..

such as, from the beginning of the show passage.. 52121251, 5..  etc.

..where the leaps are octaves this may be more practical.

Wow I can't believe I didn't notice that, thanks, I will change that in my practice. I made the "pattern" and generalized the whole thing (except the black keys where I use 3).

Well, its official, I DO have a problem with fingerings XD

[hfmadopter]

I still don't understand why people don't just learn pieces HT from the start, and this is only confirming me in that view.

I can see that there is some use for HS for short technically challenging small bits, but whole pieces???

I can only speak for myself as well. When I had a teacher she taught HT from the get go, no matter how slow you had to go. If there were rough spots then she would help to break those down which might include HS but very briefly and then back to HT.

That was a long time ago, now I tend to go it one time through HS unless the pattern is so familiar I don't need HS at all. Then when I begin to put a piece together I have an idea where the trouble spots are likely to be in each hand. And just as when I had a teacher, I break down the rough spots. Often my roughest spots going into a new piece become the strongest in the end because of the extra work put into them. Overall I'm a fan of HT and go as agonizingly slow as you have to to get through, probably because that is how I was taught. For me that is the surest route to overall success. tHe agonizingly slow feature only lasts for a relatively short period when compared to the whole picture of learning a large piece of music.

Going back even longer ago, as a kid I was taught accordion. If you read most accordion sheet music there is no bass clef, just bass notation above the treble bar. You are taught to read the time signature and assume a beat from your home key of the chord written and two other fingers following ( third and fifth early on and actually for the most part). What you played in the bass was defined by the notation of the chord ( C maj, D minor, G7 etc). So imagine my surprise when starting piano and you had this bass clef to read with no notation. Sometimes to this day I get a sense of freedom when I see a sheet with bass notation and no bass clef. With accordion it's the old term oomp pah pah applied to the bass, there is no traveling bass sort to speak ( arpeggiated chords over a broad range of bass notes) or I never made it that far if there is. Witrh piano you are free to go all over the keyboard from bass notation. So from that beginning I tend to need to work on piano bass more than the treble and may need to bone up a bit on the bass alone in rough areas, especially when the melody swaps over to the bass..

In the Liszt transcription of Ave Maria there is a whole section in there with shared melody. I have that music but it will be a bit till I get to it, when I do I know that part is going to require some extra effort. I just hope my personal result is worth the work ! I.E. Lazar Berman made it look easy.

[gleeok]

Going back even longer ago, as a kid I was taught accordion. If you read most accordion sheet music there is no bass clef, just bass notation above the treble bar. You are taught to read the time signature and assume a beat from your home key of the chord written and two other fingers following ( third and fifth early on and actually for the most part). What you played in the bass was defined by the notation of the chord ( C maj, D minor, G7 etc). So imagine my surprise when starting piano and you had this bass clef to read with no notation. Sometimes to this day I get a sense of freedom when I see a sheet with bass notation and no bass clef. With accordion it's the old term oomp pah pah applied to the bass, there is no traveling bass sort to speak ( arpeggiated chords over a broad range of bass notes) or I never made it that far if there is. Witrh piano you are free to go all over the keyboard from bass notation. So from that beginning I tend to need to work on piano bass more than the treble and may need to bone up a bit on the bass alone in rough areas, especially when the melody swaps over to the bass..

Same happened to me, but it was with digital keyboard instead. I was taught to read sheets that way, so the respective noted chords would lead the background accompaniment. My teacher was not teaching piano, but specifically keyboard.

At that time I had seen scores with both tremble and bass clefs for piano, but never tried them. Almost 8 years later (now) I decided I'd start playing again, but now I started with piano pieces, deep inside I love to play them more than arrangements for the digital accompaniment where you basically only have to do the melody and play around with the features.

With the previous knowledge I had for reading, and a guide book, I basically "learned" the bass clef myself. I don't think the way I first learned sightreading made much difference now, I don't really feel any big differences between the clefs but sometimes it does feel weird when the notes are too high (or low) in the bass clef.

Well, that doesn't matter too much right? I still have to stop and count line by line, more than I would like :T


Now I see this situation is fairly common, with other instruments too, thanks for sharing your story!

[hfmadopter]

Well, that doesn't matter too much right? I still have to stop and count line by line, more than I would like :T


Now I see this situation is fairly common, with other instruments too, thanks for sharing your story!

I think what matters is you are moving along. It's been many years, no decades, since I touched an accordian but sometimes it's a kind of going home feeling to see the chord indication written out above the treble. I'm sure I can still play one with a bit of practce.

I can read deep into the bass these days, so that's not a problem. It's just sometimes i like a simple piece of music to work up. In those I tend to like my own chord arrangements better than whats written but if they have that chord indication i almost don't even look at the bass clef and just arrange off of the indications.

Sure thing on sharing the story ! It's fun, I'm glad someone could relate.

[fleetfingers]

For HT, after HS, I have had success with students when I focus on ear training and counting. Similar to what you did with the record function on your keyboard, I play the LH along with the student playing RH, and vice versa. This seems to be very helpful to them, because they are listening to how the two hands coordinate together - and they already know both parts well, so they can discern what they're listening to and play accordingly.

Maybe this is too close to the highlighting method you show above, but it might help to draw lines connecting the notes when both hands will play together. Then, notice the "longs" and the "shorts". In this piece, the 8th notes are long and the 16th notes are short (and the quarter notes are even longer, played against 4 16th notes). Whenever you see a grouping of 8ths on one hand and 16ths on the other, then one hand is going to play by itself every other note. This will simplify the process, and help you to feel the rhythm.

For example, in the first measure, your hands will play the first note together, then count 2,3,4 while your LH plays alone. Then together every other note, and the LH will have notes in between. Repeat the same pattern for measure two. Measure 3: Together, 2, 3, 4, 1+2+, together, 2, 3, 4, 1+2+.

If you continue recording and playing along with yourself on the keyboard, you can listen for these patterns of counting. When starting HT, it will be slow, but do a measure or two at a time, with several repeats, and feel the rhythm. Pretty soon your hands will know what to do.

[gleeok]

If you continue recording and playing along with yourself on the keyboard, you can listen for these patterns of counting. When starting HT, it will be slow, but do a measure or two at a time, with several repeats, and feel the rhythm. Pretty soon your hands will know what to do.

Been doing exactly that, progress has been very promising. I'm already at the first half of the 3rd page, 4th page is only 1/4 filled with stuff so its pretty much the deadline for this piece, soon I will be able to play everything!

Hearing videos of people playing is of great help too, I was able to get the rhythm by hearing the video and then reproduce it with automated LH and myself playing RH, then HT (turned off the replay), that was it. The first two measures came out like a charm that way . Working on reading and memorizing the rest, after that all I have do to is apply the method with the recorder and after a few tries turn it off.

Thanks for putting into words. Without the rhythm we can't play right? Hahah, Specially on this piece where (for me) reproducing some parts for the first felt rhythmically weird, because of misunderstandings on my interpretation.