Compact Piano

[tomgreen]

Hi,

I've been playing piano for twelve years on my parents' Steinway grand piano. Starting October I will be going to University living in a 22 square meter dorm. Since I have no space for an acoustic instrument I am looking into digital pianos.

My favorite composers are Brahms, Chopin, and Grieg, so an instrument with good bass would be nice. I also cannot cope with the action mechanism of keyboards - an instrument that feels like a piano is therefore a necessity.

As I am living my own life now, I earn my own money. This means I only have a budget of one or two thousand euros. I hope that there is a decent instrument that fits these criteria (I cannot survive without a piano).

Any advice is highly appreciated.

Edit: How is the Roland F-120? Again, I'm not looking for a replacement for the Steinway, just a decent, small-sized piano that has good action.

[outin]

I tried the Roland 120 just recently. Based on my experience on acoustic pianos (My own piano is Yamaha U1 and my teacher has a Yamaha grand and another one) I didn't like the 120. It felt too different to the acoustics.

If you can pay a bit more, I also tried Roland 505 and that one I liked a lot.

[hfmadopter]

About as good as you will get in a digital would  be Roland with their Supernatural sound system and real ivory feel. You can get that in your price range I believe. The lower end Rolands have plastic feel and lighter touch, not very true to what you get on a real piano.

Second would be Kawai with their new wooden key system and grand piano let off style action. And they have great tonal quality. Again as digital goes. These two brands and a long shot following of Yamaha is about all I personally would bother with ( well I liked the Korg Work Stations too).

Coming from both a grand and then the Steinway besides, don't expect magic. Understand in terms of ergonomics you are entering into a compromise, but what you can do with these is not a compromise. I tried out a bunch of digitals just yesterday and I own a grand piano myself. The Rolands are close but you don't feel that let off on a slow drop of the key, otherwise the feel is familiar, the closest of what I tried out at least. I felt right at home on a stage piano/ stynth , the Roland RD700nx with both the Ivory Touch Keys and Supernatural sound sytem. Sound wise they all are stereos not vibrating strings but the tone is getting there these days and Roland has the decay down pretty well, long sustain with even fall off ( decay), as digital goes.. Understand that the sound is coming through speakers ! The better the sound system you tie into if to tie into one, the better the sound will be. If you go to try out some pianos, understand that default settings are nothing like you can get after some tweeking.

I was really surprised with the Korg work Station with 88 keys ( want to say the model was M 5088). It had decent feel and touch for the money and endless sound arranging options. Course work stations are a bit different from a piano in a wooden case but super portable and intensely strong for recording options with built in software etc.. You can build a symphony on the thing ! I'm not suggesting this, I was just surprised for the money that it even felt decent ( on sale $1299 US).

Good luck but certainly try them out first.  Steady changes have been happening in the last couple of years with new models coming out now from several brands.
David

[ranniks]

The Roland pianos are fine, just as my two teachers above here have stated. I've tried them out myself (not sure which model though) and they were fine. Perhaps even better than the yamaha ydp 141/161.

David suggested you try them out and you should definitely! I wanted the kawai cn33/43 based on reviews and such, but when I tried it out I despised it......But when I played the acoustic kawai k15e, I thought it was wonderfull, lol.

I don't think dp's of this age are better than each other. In my opinion you should just check the pianos out and pick the one with the best action/sound you yourself perceive. I mean, if I told you the ydp 161 is absolutely fine (which it is >.<) and you went ahead and tried it out but thought it was disgusting, we would have a totally different view of perspection.

The acoustic I have right now (mind you, old model, not expensive at all) has a pretty heavy action compared to the ydp, but I like it that way, lol.

[tomgreen]

Thanks for the replies!

@Outin
I liked the 120 mainly because of it's size. It has the perfect dimensions for my small room. If I can get my hands on one, I'll give the 505 a try.

@hfmadopter
Over the course of my search I came across quite a few reviewers claiming the ivory feel wore off after a few months, especially on the RD700nx. Have you heard of that phenomenon? I need an instrument that will last at least four years. Furthermore it seems that the higher priced stage pianos tend to have loads of options and extras that I don't need. I prefer simplistic design and better quality. Take for example the RD300nx - isn't that just the 700 with a few hundred extras less?

Hmm I don't know how I should feel about the work stations. Portability is not important to me. If anything I prefer a sturdy instrument.

@ranniks
Perhaps even better than the ydp 161? The ydp seems like a budget piano for beginners. Why do you think it can compete with stage pianos? I am really interested in your experience with the 161, as it certainly looks spartan. Moreover I'd like to quote hfmadopter: "The lower end Rolands have plastic feel and lighter touch, not very true to what you get on a real piano." Does this not apply to the yamaha?

[hfmadopter]

Thanks for the replies!

@Outin

@hfmadopter
Over the course of my search I came across quite a few reviewers claiming the ivory feel wore off after a few months, especially on the RD700nx. Have you heard of that phenomenon? I need an instrument that will last at least four years. Furthermore it seems that the higher priced stage pianos tend to have loads of options and extras that I don't need. I prefer simplistic design and better quality. Take for example the RD300nx - isn't that just the 700 with a few hundred extras less?

Hmm I don't know how I should feel about the work stations. Portability is not important to me. If anything I prefer a sturdy instrument.

I suspect the reviewers are heavy users. The RD 700 NX is a professional level stage piano ( synth and work station with upgraded software) and as such, probably gets hammered many nights a week. I've read the reviews as well but I have no practical experience regarding the wear. All I know is I tried a bunch of digital pianos and kept gravitating back to the RD 700 NX. I will say for a dorm piano it probably is over kill in terms of added features and portability. Just saying it played well is all and of the pianos displayed it felt the most like my grand at home, even compared with some console style pianos..

I tried the Arius series Yamahas, basically a P155 in a wooden case I gathered. It sounds a bit better with the built in speakers  when in the wooden case. However I'd guess equal ground would be found when tapping into external speakers. The touch was ok, not like that of the Roland but ok. The light med and heavy action function doesn't offer a whole lot of change. THe again I played a P155, it was ok too but even less solid feeling keys.  The 161 has GH hammers and the 141 GHS. The latest Yamaha action/hammer system is GH3.

I suspect in your case, much as in my own, you will find the throw or travel of the keys to be a bit shallow in all the digitals. My keys aren't too weighty, but even so, I noticied that my keys compared to the digitals have more variation in weight from deep bass to high treble than any digital I tried offered.. I  have not played the new model Kawais with wooden keys as yet though. THey may be a win. Lot's of people who are used to light keys or play keyboard a lot don't care for the Kawais,  saying the keys are too heavy or stiff. Probably just right to someone used to acoustic keys from several brands.

Guitar Center is a well stocked supplier 40 miles away. As near as I can tell the nearest Kawai dealer is 100 miles away. I like that Roland. I've been hung up on the Kawai MP 6 for myself though and it is $1000 less. I've been researching digitals for months and can say the latest generation is improving all the time. Some day I'll buy one for my arranging and to play with head phones. It may be sooner than later. I'm stuck myself on Work Stations vs Digital stage pianos to be honest ! You guys can keep your wooden cases, I have the grand with it's wooden case.

[schuf]

I had been looking into a compact digital for similar reasons. I have since put off the purchase for now.

The Roland F-120 and Kawai CL-36 both came up when I was looking. They are about as small as you can get. Both of them are entry level so neither have the best of what each respective company offers. No key cover on the Kawai.

I wish I could try either but I have no Kawai dealer nearby and the local Roland dealer doesn't stock the ones with the keys on the F-120. Those two would be a good starting point. They only get bigger from here.

[tomgreen]

You're probably right. Seeing as I only play on average two hours a day, it should take a while to compromise the durability of the instrument.

The main problem that I have is that I live in Germany and can't find any Kawai or Roland dealers in my vicinity. Some local piano stores have more expensive models for 4 grand upwards, but those won't represent the quality of the lower end models well I feel. It's going to come down to me intuitively choosing one and hoping for the best. Based on what you said it looks like I'll go for one of the Kawais (that is if I can find a retailer) - the MP6 seems to fit my criteria well.

[hfmadopter]

You're probably right. Seeing as I only play on average two hours a day, it should take a while to compromise the durability of the instrument.

The main problem that I have is that I live in Germany and can't find any Kawai or Roland dealers in my vicinity. Some local piano stores have more expensive models for 4 grand upwards, but those won't represent the quality of the lower end models well I feel. It's going to come down to me intuitively choosing one and hoping for the best. Based on what you said it looks like I'll go for one of the Kawais (that is if I can find a retailer) - the MP6 seems to fit my criteria well.

I highly suggest playing the pianos that you are interested in or make sure there is a good return policy if not.

[schuf]

You're probably right. Seeing as I only play on average two hours a day, it should take a while to compromise the durability of the instrument.

The main problem that I have is that I live in Germany and can't find any Kawai or Roland dealers in my vicinity. Some local piano stores have more expensive models for 4 grand upwards, but those won't represent the quality of the lower end models well I feel. It's going to come down to me intuitively choosing one and hoping for the best. Based on what you said it looks like I'll go for one of the Kawais (that is if I can find a retailer) - the MP6 seems to fit my criteria well.

The MP6 actually uses the same keys and sound generator as the entry level CL-36 minus the escapement simulation. However it being a professional stage piano, it will have more sound parameters available for you to change and many more sounds and different piano voices to choose from. It has no speakers or stand so you will have to budget for those if you go that route.

[hfmadopter]

The MP6 actually uses the same keys and sound generator as the entry level CL-36 minus the escapement simulation. However it being a professional stage piano, it will have more sound parameters available for you to change and many more sounds and different piano voices to choose from. It has no speakers or stand so you will have to budget for those if you go that route.

Yes not all models have the new wooden keys with the latest action . Thank's for pointing out the speaker situation as well ! Not a concern to myself but it may be to the OP. External speakers would just be all the better, IMO.

[somoty]

Hello!
I am also looking out for a compact piano.

I have looked at Roland FP-120, Yamaha YDP S-51 and Casio PX 830. There is also a similar piano in Kawai Cl 36. Since I didn't like the sound of the Casio, and since Kawai isn't available in swedish stores, I am left with two pianos.

Does anyone have experience of Yamaha YDP s-51? It's really hard to find independent information about this piano, since it's quite new. It should be better then the previous Yamaha models in that price range, using a slightly altered claviatur from the clavinova series (GH, not GHS?).

Factually, Yamaha YDP s-51 have better speakers (2x20W) than Roland Fp 120 (2x12W). Roland only has a midi-connection, while Yahama has a USB-to-host.  Though, Roland is somewhat less expensive.

Does anyone have experience from the yamaha s-51 to share? Anyone having a opinion on which piano is the better?
Best regards,
Fredrik

[hfmadopter]

Hello!

Factually, Yamaha YDP s-51 have better speakers (2x20W) than Roland Fp 120 (2x12W). Roland only has a midi-connection, while Yahama has a USB-to-host.  Though, Roland is somewhat less expensive.

Does anyone have experience from the yamaha s-51 to share? Anyone having a opinion on which piano is the better?
Best regards,
Fredrik

I'd rather have GH hammers than GHS personally. GH3 is Yamahas latest though. You really have to play them to know what one is for you. I've played the Arius series pianos and they feel decent, as digital goes.

The Roland that catches my interest is a stage piano though, not in a console.

[tomgreen]

I took the risk and bought a CL36 online. I am impressed by the action quality and the effectiveness of the ivory touch surface coating. It surprised me to be honest. On the contrary the wooden parts of the DP are made of cheap laminated fibre, but I can live with that. The sound via speakers is good, but via headphones I get a strange ringing noise that accompanies my playing whenever I play complex or loud music. Annoying to say the least. I tried swapping headphones, but to no avail. The noise persists. I'm not sure whether my DP is defective or the sound quality is in general not particularily great. I guess you could say it is unclear - sounds as if you turned the volume up too high on your mp3 player. Anyone have an idea?

Thanks to all the people who have helped me so far - apart from that sound issue I can't complain!

[hfmadopter]

I took the risk and bought a CL36 online. I am impressed by the action quality and the effectiveness of the ivory touch surface coating. It surprised me to be honest. On the contrary the wooden parts of the DP are made of cheap laminated fibre, but I can live with that. The sound via speakers is good, but via headphones I get a strange ringing noise that accompanies my playing whenever I play complex or loud music. Annoying to say the least. I tried swapping headphones, but to no avail. The noise persists. I'm not sure whether my DP is defective or the sound quality is in general not particularily great. I guess you could say it is unclear - sounds as if you turned the volume up too high on your mp3 player. Anyone have an idea?

Thanks to all the people who have helped me so far - apart from that sound issue I can't complain!

My only thought about the head phones is that they could be an inferior quality set.The people who really get into playing with head phones on spend some bucks on them. Just guessing though.

[tomgreen]

Unlikely - 200 dollar headphones I've had no problems with the past two years listening to music. Although it does sound as if I were using low quality headphones - the noise is very similar to the sound headphones make when there is too much bass.

[keys60]

I bought a Yamaha DGX 640 for around 800 US. I wish I had spent more and gone with a kawai. More piano, less toys.

[hfmadopter]

I bought a Yamaha DGX 640 for around 800 US. I wish I had spent more and gone with a kawai. More piano, less toys.

But there is no end, no matter what you bought there would be a better model. Meanwhile if it were me in your shoes I could attach the 640 to my computer and run into Muse Score and do my arranging through the DP right here right now today. Since I own non, only have played on several models a few times, I can't do that.

I looked at that model too and didn't rob the piggy bank to get it, while it has plenty to work with it just felt wrong compared with the mid $2000 pianos or even that 88 key Kork Work Station for $1200 I mentioned in another post. However, meanwhile even a $500 keyboard would get me into MuseScore................. Or if I tear into my grand chasing a string that's singing incorrectly I'd have the digital backup right here right now. Digital is always going to evolve, I just have not seen quite the incentive just yet to dig into that piggy bank and not really sure how badly I want to rob it !! I'm trying to justify in my brain cells just what level it is that I really need vs want. And maybe I prefer a work station at that. Too much out there ! Still, I see myself arranging with one in software, guess that's the main goal. Any 88 key digital with USB or Midi will do it.

So that's my little hang up concerning digital pianos. At least you own one though !

I have two students with dink donk, dare I say, cheap DP's. They both complain or mention how heavy my grands keys are. Sorry guys, it's your keys that stink. It's fairly light actually, and I weighted them originally to more closely match my teachers Steinway grand way back when and more recently I removed some weight since I'm not doing any recitals any time soon on a heavy Steinway action. They are weighted half of what they were in terms of added wieght. So the point of this is it is important IMO, to get a digital with reasonable action in it, especially for students. My inclination is that even on the best digitals there is still a slight lack of action feel compared with acoustic. Even at that you do have to spend some money but even something like a Yamaha CP33 on fire sale will get decent action, just not the latest sound, though then you can use sound generating software to finish that off nicely. You just play through a laptop through a stereo with jacks in it or other sound system and make sound the best $4000 piano can't make using it's own sound system. That is until the $4000 one gets wired through the lap top and on and on we gooooo.....

If it sounds like I'm rambling, you should experience this from my view !!
David

[tomgreen]

Okay so the Kawai technician that I talked to said that the headphone jack is directly attached to the speaker jack, so that if the speakers sound fine so should the headphones. He also said the headphone jack has an impedance of 80 ohm and his theory is that my headphones may not be suitable.

My expensive headphones have good listening quality, but only an impedance of 32 ohm. I also tried 40 ohm cheap headphones. Neither of them was able to deliver. My question is now whether you think the technician's theory sounds plausible. I really don't want to spend 150 dollars upwards for 80+ Ohm impedance headphones if that will yield no results.

I am looking at AKG K601 headphones, which have 120 Ohm impedance and 101db/V sensibility. Now from what I've heard high impedance headphones need more power to drive them. It would be great if I didn't have to buy an amp as well. Thus I'm also looking into 80 Ohm Beyerdynamic DT-770 although they are certainly worse headphones. What do you think?

Alternatively I could just return the piano altogether (at no cost), but I honestly think the action of the instrument is great and fulfils my expectations.

Oh and by the way David make sure to check out the CL36 sometime. The action is really quite heavy, if not as heavy as a Steinway Grand. You might like it.

[hfmadopter]

It makes sense to me that an 80 ohm matched set of headphones will deliver but there are better headphone people around this forum than myself by far. Also it makes sense that while the jack and the speakers are wired together, the jack itself could have a defective lead or solder joint. It must be frustrating to have the almost perfect digital piano and have this head phone problem though. Can you buy a set of headphones with a return policy where you are at ?

Believe me, if I ever find a good ( well stocked ) Kawai dealer around this area I'll try them all out. Guitar Center is our best stocked Digital dealer and they don't stock Kawai. The nearest is about 55 miles away and the best dealer is 100 miles away. Whats really funny is the piano dealer and restorer down the street from my house about 1/4 mile stocks a few Yamaha (clavier I believe) and two Korgs, the SP170 and SP250. No Kawai, while they have a Kawai sign in their window. Oh well. He gets too much for the Korks, you can get them shipped free for less on line and not pay tax as well from a place like Kraft Music or even Guitar Center for that matter. BUt my main interes with Kawai, all that aside, is with the MP 6 for portability and then the upper end units with their wood based keys. I had not even considered the 36, honestly but thanks for the heads up !

[tomgreen]

Just gave them a call and yes they have a good return policy for headphones. They highly recommend the AKG K601, stating that they use it to demo all of their DPs in their local store. Seeing as it has great online reviews and the store also clearly favored the AKG's I ordered a pair. Will see how that works out. Thanks for the info - hadn't even considered that it could be a defective solder joint. If the headphones don't fix the problem then you are probably right, but I won't take the risk and play around with the soldering - I'll return the instrument in that case.

I perfectly understand your frustration with local retailers. There are 6 dealers nearby and none of them stock Kawai DPs. Shame really - I feel they are being overlooked by some. Personally I didn't like the Yamaha and Casio low-end models at all (was able to try them) and wasn't expecting much from the Kawai alternative, but they really know how to work on a budget. The CL36 features most of Kawai's recent DP innovations and is an all around decent instrument. Yes there are better (more expensive) models out there, but I would recommend this DP especially for learners, because it is best to practice technique on an authentic feeling DP (if the chance to play on an acoustic does not present itself). For me it is perfectly sufficient until I move to a bigger apartment and have more space. Oh well - the MP6 also looked great and is possibly an even better choice. Although I occasionally compose music I don't work with artificial sounds and don't have the experience to use advanced audio features in conjunction with compatible software. Seeing as you are versed in DP technology the MP6 probably appeals to you more than it does to me.

[hfmadopter]

 Oh well - the MP6 also looked great and is possibly an even better choice. Although I occasionally compose music I don't work with artificial sounds and don't have the experience to use advanced audio features in conjunction with compatible software. Seeing as you are versed in DP technology the MP6 probably appeals to you more than it does to me.

Actually the MP6 appeals to me a lot for various reasons but tops is sound, action and portability.  Almost any digital will do the rest as far as software capability when run through a computer, as long as it has USB or Midi. In your case you wanted the piano aspect first, I think and I have a grand piano for that. I'd like to arrange in MuseScore through a DP though.

The MP 6 has no speakers, that's a turn off to a lot of people I imagine but I have speakers to run it through anyway or though the stereo system in the house for that matter. Be nice when done arranging to just stuff the DP in the closet so I investigate stage pianos mostly .

You've made a good choice for you, since you are happy with your purchase right out of the gate, hope the head set works out and you will be golden ! Excellent.