Student Competition Rep

[asuhayda]

Hi All.

I need some help.  My student will be competing in a rather tough competition next April (2013).  Here is his current repertoire:

Mozart - Sonata K545
Beethoven - Fur Elise
Bach - Invention No. 8 in F
Joplin - Swipesy

I need to pick 2 pieces for him and I'm having a brain freeze.  He must play one classical period Sonata movement (1st or final) and a second contrasting piece. He has 10 minutes to complete both.  The problem is, he does not have a chance at winning this competition with his current repertoire difficulty.  I could play it safe and pick another Mozart Sonata, but it may not be a standout.. Beethoven perhaps? 

Any suggestions on a second piece?  Something from Chopin?  Maybe one of his Waltzes or Preludes? Schubert maybe?  Maybe something 20th century like Khatchaturian or Bartok?  Rachmaninoff is out, Liszt is out, Brahms is pretty much out (I think).. Bach?  I don't know how Bach would fare in a competition.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[scherzo123]

Hmmm...maybe:

Beethoven Piano Sonata Op.31 No.2 (mvt. 3)
Beethoven Piano Sonata Op.2 No.1 (mvt. 1)
I'm not familiar with Schubert's Sonatas...
Chopin Waltz Op.64 No.2
Chopin Waltz Op.69 No.2
Chopin Prelude Op.28 No.8
Chopin Prelude Op.28 No.15
Prokofiev Selections from Vision Fugitives Op.22
Debussy Prelude "Girl with the Flaxen Hair"
Debussy Arabesque No.1
Debussy Clair de Lune
Brahms Intermezzi Op.117 (any)
Brahms Intermezzi Op.118 Nos 1 and/or 2

Sorry if some are too hard...

[pbryld]

The K545 is the very easiest Mozart sonata, but it is only a grade or two below the rest of them. If he can play it perfectly, he could probably tackle the rest of the sonatas.

A Haydn sonata would probably stand out from all the Mozarts and Beethovens. Or Hummel, but that me be too hard (but marvelous!).

For a 2nd piece you should try Liszt's 3rd Consolation. It's the only one that get's any play, but I still don't think it gets played that much. And it's beautiful. Rhythmically a bit hard though.

[scherzo123]

Liszt Consolation No.3...I was thinking of suggesting that, but I thought it wouldn't really impress the judges.

[asuhayda]

The K545 is the very easiest Mozart sonata, but it is only a grade or two below the rest of them. If he can play it perfectly, he could probably tackle the rest of the sonatas.

A Haydn sonata would probably stand out from all the Mozarts and Beethovens. Or Hummel, but that me be too hard (but marvelous!).

For a 2nd piece you should try Liszt's 3rd Consolation. It's the only one that get's any play, but I still don't think it gets played that much. And it's beautiful. Rhythmically a bit hard though.

I quite like this suggestion.  Thank you!  I am embarrassed to say this but I am not well versed in Haydn myself.  I played 1 Haydn Sonata my freshman year of University and that's about it.  Maybe one other.. I think we might try a harder Mozart Sonata.  I think even Beethoven's Op.2 No.1 is going to be too ambitious for this student this year.

Liszt Consolation No.3...I was thinking of suggesting that, but I thought it wouldn't really impress the judges.

Usually I would wholeheartedly agree with this.. but that piece would be a good contrast and a standout for this particular level of student.

Scherzo, I really like your suggestion about the Tempest 3rd mvmt.  Unfortunately, I think that's going to be unrealistic for this student right now.  Maybe next year.  Good idea though.. if he had the chops for it, I would seriously consider that as an option.

[scherzo123]

Beethoven Piano Sonata Op.2 No.1 (mvt. 1)
I'm not familiar with Schubert's Sonatas...
Chopin Waltz Op.64 No.2
Chopin Waltz Op.69 No.2
Chopin Prelude Op.28 No.8
Chopin Prelude Op.28 No.15
Prokofiev Selections from Vision Fugitives Op.22
Debussy Prelude "Girl with the Flaxen Hair"
Debussy Arabesque No.1
Debussy Clair de Lune
Brahms Intermezzi Op.117 (any)
Brahms Intermezzi Op.118 Nos 1 and/or 2

Are any of these doable for the student???

[49410enrique]

why not the 4th mvmtn of Beethoven Op 2 No1, nice balance of 'difficulty' and flash but the piano writting is quite sound, i.e feels good in the hands , standard chord and arpegio positions, should not need unconventional fingerings, etc.

i have always liked this movement and am always disapointed when i go to a student recital that lists op 2 no 1 in the program and they only do the first movement....

[j_menz]

why not the 4th mvmtn of Beethoven Op 2 No1, nice balance of 'difficulty' and flash but the piano writting is quite sound, i.e feels good in the hands , standard chord and arpegio positions, should not need unconventional fingerings, etc.

i have always liked this movement and am always disapointed when i go to a student recital that lists op 2 no 1 in the program and they only do the first movement....

+ 1

How about the Op Post Nocturne as a nice contrast?

[scherzo123]

why not the 4th mvmtn of Beethoven Op 2 No1, nice balance of 'difficulty' and flash but the piano writting is quite sound, i.e feels good in the hands , standard chord and arpegio positions, should not need unconventional fingerings, etc.

i have always liked this movement and am always disapointed when i go to a student recital that lists op 2 no 1 in the program and they only do the first movement....

I thought it was too hard for the student...

[sclive]

What are this student's strengths?

[asuhayda]

What are this student's strengths?

Accuracy, power, memory.  He doesn't hit a lot of wrong notes.   As usual, he practices A LOT when he likes a piece.. not so much when he doesn't (typical).

I was also thinking about the final movement of Op.2 No.1 as well... I like the idea of the final Movement of the Tempest Sonata.  That is not a typical competition piece for someone his age.. and I think it might actually be easier to play (froma technical perspective0 than the Op.2.  I think he would enjoy playing that one a little bit more as well.  It has interesting harmonization.

Good call Scherzo!

Thanks.

[49410enrique]

if he's not feeling the F minor op 2 no 1 how about Op 10 no 1, III?

[scherzo123]

...I think the classical piano sonata movement is already chosen...now a contrast...

[mikeowski]

How about the 2nd Gershwin prelude or as you said Bartók. Although I have no idea what pieces of his are at your students level (except a whole bunch from the mikrokosmos ofc)

[49410enrique]

...I think the classical piano sonata movement is already chosen...now a contrast...

been meaning to learn this myself, i actually forgot i have a printed  score at the bottom of mone of my benches. super funny work but can really showcase musicality, reminds me of the debussy prelude 'minstrels' big time (i played that one a long time a go and loved it)

might be a bit too much for him but thoguht i'd suggest it in case you think he's up to it, love this piece too, super fun it paints the most vivid pictures
 

[ajspiano]

Serious competition prep and associated repertoire (you know, with an aim to actually win) is really not my field..

I'm curious though,

My student will be competing in a rather tough competition next April (2013)

Why? Who's choice is that..?

The problem is, he does not have a chance at winning this competition with his current repertoire difficulty

What would be an acceptable (or perhaps average of all competitors) difficulty?

Mozart - Sonata K545
Beethoven - Fur Elise
Bach - Invention No. 8 in F
Joplin - Swipesy

Is this more or less the students only repertoire, or is it just the recent/current repertoire  being studied? If there is more past repertoire (there must be..?), how extensive is it? 3-4 pieces? 30 pieces?

And,

What is the students past performance experience?

Edit:
...I have more,
Who are the competition judges and what do you know about their marking tendencies?

Are you able to find a list of past winners (or runners up) and the repertoire they performed? if so, is there any pattern to what pieces have shown up in the programs of successful pianists at this event?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Wouldn't you say that Fur Elise is a bad competition piece because it's outrageously overplayed?

[asuhayda]

I'm curious though,
1.  Why? Who's choice is that..?

And,

2. What is the students past performance experience?

3. Who are the competition judges and what do you know about their marking tendencies?

4. Are you able to find a list of past winners (or runners up) and the repertoire they performed? if  so, is there any pattern to what pieces have shown up in the programs of successful pianists at this event?

1.  Because he is a competitor and so am I.  He (the student) wishes to compete and I support it 100%. 

2.  He has previously placed 3rd in a regional competition this past Summer out of a pool of 16. It was very impressive.  He played Solfeggio (among other things).

3.  This remains to be seen.  However, it has been my experience, that the judges in this area focus largely on clarity and technique.  Musicianship is a close second.  If a student plays a Mozart Sonata, I have a feeling the judges are thinking (1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e ... AHAH! he was off)

4.  This is a good idea.  I'll have to try to see what I can dig up. This would probably be helpful.

I am encouraging this student to compete because his style of play is suitable for these types of events.  He has really good clarity and steel nerves.  I have other students who are more musical than him, but would not do well in competition because they don't play well in front of others and their technique is not as strong.

[asuhayda]

Wouldn't you say that Fur Elise is a bad competition piece because it's outrageously overplayed?

Ya, plus it doesn't have a huge WOW factor.

[asuhayda]

been meaning to learn this myself, i actually forgot i have a printed  score at the bottom of mone of my benches. super funny work but can really showcase musicality, reminds me of the debussy prelude 'minstrels' big time (i played that one a long time a go and loved it)

might be a bit too much for him but thoguht i'd suggest it in case you think he's up to it, love this piece too, super fun it paints the most vivid pictures
 

It's funny you mention this piece.  I actually taught it to a student for a competition about 10 years ago.  It was actually required repertoire for that particular event. 

Ya, I think this might be too challenging for him right now.  But, I'll have to think about it. Thanks

EDIT:  Ya know.. I'm liking this idea more and more.. I'd say the only real concern is time. He only has 10 minutes.  This and a movement from a Beethoven Sonata might be cutting it close, I'm not sure.

[ajspiano]

1.  Because he is a competitor and so am I.  He (the student) wishes to compete and I support it 100%. 

I didn't mean to suggest I thought it was a bad idea, my apologies if it came across that way. Just curious of the reasons for competing and how they may effect the repertoire choice.

3.  This remains to be seen.  However, it has been my experience, that the judges in this area focus largely on clarity and technique.  Musicianship is a close second.  If a student plays a Mozart Sonata, I have a feeling the judges are thinking (1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e ... AHAH! he was off)

I wonder how soon that information would become available? As I said, this kind of stuff isn't at all my within my field of knowledge.. and this is specifically why, I dislike tailoring an interpretation to serve someone else's personal view on how music should be played.

that said, my experience in the area is that growing up my teacher entered me in an annual regional eisteddfod (reasonable size, the event lasted a full week of performing from 9am-10pm)

My teacher was on the organizing committee, she always knew who would be adjudicating and often had copies of notes an adjudicator had made on her other students in earlier years, and sometimes on the specific piece I was performing in the event..  needless to say this was an advantage.

We even rehearsed with concern toward the specific piano that would be used. The concert halls Steinway B was a different animal to the Yamaha U3 my teacher owned, and of course very different to the older dilapidated instrument I had at home.

We also did rehearsals on the piano at the hall, during the preceding weeks you could book in a practice session for $40/hour if the hall was not in high demand for any other events.

4.  This is a good idea.  I'll have to try to see what I can dig up. This would probably be helpful.

It would have to be cross referenced against the judge in any given year, hopefully that will be available also.

**Apologies for dragging the conversation away from actual repertoire.

[outin]

My teacher was on the organizing committee, she always knew who would be adjudicating and often had copies of notes an adjudicator had made on her other students in earlier years, and sometimes on the specific piece I was performing in the event..  needless to say this was an advantage.

A bit off topic but I just understood why I cannot understand competing in music (or arts in general). If one takes the trouble of learning a piece, would one not want to make it one's own instead of trying to play it the certain way to please judges.

But I guess the higher you go the more the judges value personality?

[ajspiano]

A bit off topic but I just understood why I cannot understand competing in music (or arts in general). If one takes the trouble of learning a piece, would one not want to make it one's own instead of trying to play it the certain way to please judges.

I was a child, I didnt know better..   I agree wholeheartedly with you now. I think competitions and "correct" performance are awful concepts. Each to their own though. Competition can be a great motivator for the right person.

But I guess the higher you go the more the judges value personality?

Yes and no, have a short read up on the Ivo Pogorelić case at the 1980 Chopin Competition.

Considering the quality of performers that place at that event one must assume that individual interpretation exists and is required to a degree..  apparently its possible to be too individual..  I found his performances to be pretty awesome.

[outin]

I think competitions and "correct" performance are awful concepts.

As long as we don't completely throw out the correct though...Just to clarify, I also think one should first learn the piece before making it one's own. In this day you see all kinds of "personal" interpretations in youtube...

[ajspiano]

As long as we don't completely throw out the correct though...Just to clarify, I also think one should first learn the piece before making it one's own. In this day you see all kinds of "personal" interpretations in youtube...

A quality performer will have the ability to execute multiple (perhaps infinite) unique interpretations of the same piece. That is not the case with subpar youtube videos, they are more along the lines of as good as is possible given the performers current ability, and are seldom perfected..  just "I can play the right notes now, piece done"

Thats not an interpretation, its just the notes.

[j_menz]

I found his performances to be pretty awesome.

His Chopin, particularly, form the time was quite an eye opener and I was a huge fan.

He did seem, to me at least, to go on to come to regard eccentricity of interpretation as something of a virtue in itself, and I find many of his later performances rather less inspired or interesting.

[49410enrique]

It's funny you mention this piece.  I actually taught it to a student for a competition about 10 years ago.  It was actually required repertoire for that particular event. 

Ya, I think this might be too challenging for him right now.  But, I'll have to think about it. Thanks

EDIT:  Ya know.. I'm liking this idea more and more.. I'd say the only real concern is time. He only has 10 minutes.  This and a movement from a Beethoven Sonata might be cutting it close, I'm not sure.

hey no worries, i like 'brain storming out loud' even if it doesn't work out on any of my suggestions this go around it keeps works we might not otherwise think about 'fresh' on our minds for further discussino in the future, or for you, even for future students/needs, etc.

sorry about the suggestion and length if you mentioned the 10 minutes limit, i simply forgot about it (i get excited about repertoire sometimes, so i probably did just 'gloss' past the important details when sifting through the lit 

do keep us updated with final choices,progress, results and such!

[asuhayda]

Thanks to all for your input. I think I've gotten some good ideas.  To all those that are morally against student competition.. you just keep fighting the good fight. It's noble work  you're doing.    (that's a joke!)

[49410enrique]

another 'charmer', really quite nice, fits well under 'small hands' but super effective with very clean articulations, contrasts nicely against many standard baroque, classical, and romantic pieces

Dances of the Dolls: Waltz-Scherzo by Shostakovich

i have always loved this set of Karen Tanaka pieces, again can be a super effective contrasting character to lots of styles so these 'modern' pieces can be super flexible tools when putting together a comp rep list