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Author Topic: Chopin's Nocturn  Op. 9 No. 2  (Read 1862 times)
seepiano
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« on: October 13, 2004, 08:04:07 AM »

I am pretty sure that someone already asked how to overcome the right hand pattern at almost the end of the piece. However, I did the search and I couldn't find the post.

Can anyone give me advice to practice this, or give me the like to that topic please?

Thank you.
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piano sheet music of Nocturne
drooxy
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« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2004, 02:23:39 AM »

SeePiano,

I hope Bernhard won't blame me for copying his answer to that same question I asked some times ago...

 Undecided

Here it is:

Quote
Do you mean the long sequence of repeated CbBb-CA at the end? If so, don’t do this with your fingers, that is, you keep your hand quiet and only the fingers move pressing the keys in turn. If you try to play it this way , it will never sound even and you will die of finger exhaustion halfway through it.

There is a movement to negotiate this section, and it is very easy to show, and almost impossible to describe in a way that may help you. So be prepared for some experimentation.

First get the overall movement. On a tabletop, press your finger three lightly on the table. This finger must not leave the table: it will act as a pivot. The other fingers should be relaxed and free to move as the hand moves. Now, start circling your hand supported by your finger 3 in a clockwise direction. Imagine you have a paper cone inverted on the table, and your hand is inside this paper cone. Your finger 3 is pressing the table from the inside of the cone. Now, with your wrist touch the rim of the cone from 9:00 to 12:00 to 3:00 (clockwise movement), and from 3:00 to 6:00 to 9:00 the underneath of your wrist touches the rim of the cone. Got this circular movement? It is really simple – much simpler than this description may lead you to believe. This is the first and most important component of the movement. Practise it on a tabletop (or any other surface) until it becomes natural.

The second component involves fingers 2 and 3. Put a matchbox on the tabletop. Now, start with finger 3 on the table, and “step up” the matchbox with finger 2. Keep stepping up and donw: finger 2 up the matchbox, and finger 3 on the tabletop. As finger 2 steps on the matchbox, its pressure lifts finger 3, as finger 3 falls back on the table top its movement lifts finger 2. The whole movement actually comes from the elbow, which pushes-pulls the hand back and forth, so the fingers actually do not go up and down at all, the arm moves the fingers up and down. All that is required from the fingers is that they are “braced” at the moment of contact at either the matchbox or the tabletop.

Now we are going to combine these two movements: the stepping up and down of fingers 2-3 and the circular wrist movement using finger 3 as a pivot. If you now place the fingers on the keyboard, start by playing Cb with finger 3. Then step up the black note (Bb) with finger 2. Remember that the arm does this movement, not the fingers. Now with finger 2 on top of the black note, start the clockwise movement of the wrist, so that your finger 4 “falls” on the C natural, this is the top of the circle, now do the lower bit of the circle so that your thumb “falls” on the A natural.

If you get this right, it will feel as if your fingers are not moving at all. Rather, the hand/arm movement is placing the fingers in the appropriate notes, and pressing them is just a matter of bracing the fingers and let gravity and arm weight do the pressing for you. And because the movement does not start with the fingers, you can attain incredible speeds, since a relatively small and slow movement of the hand will result in a many times multiplied speed of the fingers.

Does that make sense? I can teach this to anyone is a couple of seconds by simply showing it and –if necessary – guiding the students hand. So you now will have to spend a couple of hours trying to decipher what I wrote !

In any case, once you get the movement it will instantly feel right ( I hope). The secret is (at the beginning) not to move the fingers at all and let your hand/arm do all the work. If you that you will have to use the correct movement. Later on there will be some finger movement.

Start the movement slow and large to get the feeling for it. As you increase speed decrease the movement. To an outside observer it will look like you are moving your fingers. But it is not true: your hand is moving the fingers, but the hand movement is so small as to be virtually undetectable. But as the player you will feel where the movement is truly coming from. By the way this is one of the reasons why watching other people play does not always give the true picture: We can be misled by what we think we are seeing.

I am not already completely successful at it but it gets better !

 Smiley

Hope this helps !

Cheers,
Drooxy
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Drooxy
seepiano
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2004, 04:38:58 PM »

Thank you Drooxy, also thank you Bernhard. I think that is alomost similar to what I did, but I still got problem with that. I did move my hand the way Bernhard say, but I incorporated with the slight movement of fingers too. I guess I have to try moving hand alone. However, I feel comfortable with playing the repeat sets of that at this state now.

There are 12 sets of repeating sets. And, I always run out of my mind when I play up to 8-10 sets. Without counting number of sets I do, I can run that on and on. Dose the previous topic discuss about how to deal with mind speed?

Mind Speed might be discussed somewhere around, I will find it out.

Thank you
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drooxy
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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2004, 10:59:26 AM »

Seepiano,

Regarding the movement of your fingers, Bernhard said:

Quote
1. The secret is (at the beginning) not to move the fingers at all and let your hand/arm do all the work. If you do that you will have to use the correct movement.

2. Later on there will be some finger movement.

... so you might be OK !

I believe, in point 1., Bernhard could (should ?) have written:

    "If you do that you will have to use the correct HAND and ARM movement"].

Then, fingers will have to move also to accompany that hand/arm motion and - probably - will be the generators of the crescendo/decrescendo that goes with the passage... (?)

That is my understanding of Bernhard's "secret formula" but please, tell me if you have a different one !

No idea about how to count the number of time the sequence is repeated... But as usually, Bernhard will have the answer.. Let's hope he will see our thread... !  Wink

Cheers,
Drooxy

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Drooxy
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