Advice needed: rebuilt Steinway 'L', used Estonia, or new Boston?

[jazzdad69]

Hello everyone -- I have been spending considerable time recently digging through the archives of this site and enjoying learning about the attributes of pianos ... so please bear with me (I'm new to the site) and entertain my request, if you have 2 cents to contribute.

I'm in the market for a piano.  Constraints: money and size of piano.  My budget is around 28,000 (max), and the piano can't be bigger than 5'11".  FWIW, I'm located in Canada, so my choices are more limited than what one my find in parts of the USA.

Situation: I'm a professional music teacher, and have been a Yamaha fan for many years ... essentially since my college days and beyond.  Fourteen years ago, when I was setting up my own teaching/music studio at home, I purchased a Yamaha C6 ... and I've been quite happy with it.  It's been everything I'd hoped for: predictable, reliable, nice to play.  It makes me think that Yamaha C-series pianos are kind of like the Toyota Camry of the piano world.  Well-built, and designed to get you from A to B without drama.  Or maybe like a boring, predictable girlfriend.  Sure, she might not dance the Tarantella on your kitchen table wearing only a tea towel, but she makes your fave tuna casserole the same way, every night.  What else could you ask for in life?

But I digress.

Back to the pianos: we recently renovated our house and our renovated family room would be perfect for a smallish grand.  We measured the space, and a piano no bigger than 5'11" would fit perfectly.

Contestant #1: a Used Yamaha C2

Again, I'm a big Yamaha fan.  But I'm thinking something else should go in that space.  There are a couple C2's at the college where I teach, and they're "fine".  The C2's are competent, but not completely inspiring.  Don't get me wrong -- they're great instruments.  But they have that particular 'sound' and feel of the Yamaha series.  Maybe I'm trying to move away from that, I don't know.

Contestant #2: a used (but recent-model) Estonia 168

Taking things out to left field, I admit.  From Yamaha to Estonia?  Now I'm comparing apples to kumquats!  All the stuff I read online about Estonia is extremely positive -- especially considering the price.  A pseudo-Steinway, if you will ... from a low-cost country that prides itself on workmanship.

Anyway, I have a lead on a 2004 Estonia 168 ... I know it's a different animal from the Yamaha C2, but would it be worth it?  The asking price is similar.

The owner said it has barely been played.  Tuned once a year.  Showroom condition.  Frankly, I'm more concerned with the sound.

I've heard that the Estonia pianos have a more European tone, fuller, 'rounder' perhaps?  I'm intrigued.  Quite the opposite of the clinical Japanese pianos, I would imagine.

Contestant #3: a refurbished Steinway 'L'

Adding gasoline to the fire here!  I also will be viewing this weekend a refurb Steinway L piano.  Built in the 1950's.  Was re-done (top to bottom, according to the owner) in 2000.  The owner said it cost $13,000 for the re-furb at that time.

Does anyone have anything good to say about refurbed Steinways?  Or opinions about the 'L' series?  FWIW, the technician in my city has offered to come along with me and view one of the pianos and answer any on-site questions.  He didn't do the 2000 refurb but he has been the tuner for the family since that time and he knows that particular piano well.

I know there are lots of variables about whether a piano gets a thorough refurb or not ... I suppose I'll only know when I sit down to play them for a bit.

Contestant #4: a brand-new Boston

Well, it was my own darn fault that I stopped by the local Steinway dealer.  I played the new 'M' and the new 'B' he had on the floor.  Gorgeous.  But far beyond my price range.

So he pleasantly herded me over to the Boston 5'10".  Brand-new, 4 months old.

I had remembered Boston from the last time I was shopping for pianos, about 14 years ago.  I tried a few Bostons back then and thought they were completely blah.  No magic to them at all.  Coarse, not enjoyable to play.

But to my surprise, this 2012 Boston 5'10" just oozed musicality.  It had delightful action, and a wonderfully expressive sound.  But it was especially the action that floored me: it had that same sensitivity that I found with Steinways ... the shared DNA was readily evident.

At that moment the salesman told me that 2009 was the year of a big redesign of Boston, and many components were improved and enhanced.  So maybe that's why I was so impressed.  My previous judgements of Boston were thrown out the window.

And of course, now that the salesman and I are 'best friends', he can offer me a special on the Boston, bringing the price into the $28,000 range -- just for me.

So that's the story.  Four pianos, all in the $20,000 to $28,000 range.

I would sincerely appreciate any input from forum members.  Maybe people could comment on refurbed Steinways.  Or maybe an Estonia owner could chime in.  Or any comments from the Boston crowd?  I'm open ears. Ready for feedback.

[outin]

Contestant #2: a used (but recent-model) Estonia 168

Taking things out to left field, I admit.  From Yamaha to Estonia?  Now I'm comparing apples to kumquats!  All the stuff I read online about Estonia is extremely positive -- especially considering the price.  A pseudo-Steinway, if you will ... from a low-cost country that prides itself on workmanship.

Anyway, I have a lead on a 2004 Estonia 168 ... I know it's a different animal from the Yamaha C2, but would it be worth it?  The asking price is similar.

The owner said it has barely been played.  Tuned once a year.  Showroom condition.  Frankly, I'm more concerned with the sound.

I've heard that the Estonia pianos have a more European tone, fuller, 'rounder' perhaps?  I'm intrigued.  Quite the opposite of the clinical Japanese pianos, I would imagine.

I had the opportunity to try out 2 of these models when I visited the Estonia factory in May. I also saw how they are done.

That convinced me enough to want one for myself. I loved the dynamics, sound and touch, playing it was a pleasure. But someone else may find them too light in touch? Definitely different to a Yamaha. You should try it out.

[jazzdad69]

Thanks outin, I'm glad to hear you had such a positive experience trying out the Estonia pianos ... I'm looking forward to trying this particular piano as well.

[hfmadopter]

Thanks outin, I'm glad to hear you had such a positive experience trying out the Estonia pianos ... I'm looking forward to trying this particular piano as well.

The Steinway L , IMO, stands alone with it's tone even within the Steinway line of pianos ( many would argue for this or against it, I happen to lke that toneal quality). However, who knows how the rebuild effected this, you would just have to play it and see if it suits you. The bass on this piano should be head and shoulders over other pianos you play if the rebuild went well. Who knows on the action, it may have been rebushed and padded or replaced, we don't know that part.

Estonia built a good name for themselves quickly. I have not heard one yet that inspires me regarding tone but I'm only listening on line. In person may be another whole matter. As has been mentioned the action is good in these.

Boston doen't interest me.

This I assume is your personal piano and your teaching piano. It's going to get heavy use then. As such you want more than fine features but also rugged ! Steinway is built for the long haul. Some new pianos out today not so much so ( according to the piano store and rebuilder people down the street from me who claim some of these new pianos just aren't as strongly built).

[49410enrique]

love estonia pianos! i can't stop playing them when i go to mylocal showroom. i got to play on a new estonia concert grand last time i was there, oustanding. the standard length concert grand is i sublime. the little one is probably the best sounding small piano i have ever played.

i have not seen or played the brand new semi concert grand they just came out with but it looks so very promising.

my dream is a shigeru kawai, i would look for a used shigeru before a new kawai or new/used boston  but if i went non asian i would almost certainly go with the estonia,

steinways are a great standard but if you have a chance to sample mason and hamlin (love those!), charles walter (rare but super nice too!), even some of the middle size baldwins (pre gibson-for for baldwin it helps to have the space for an sf-10, probably my favorite amrican piano in that size except for only a certain select few steinway b's)

good luck let us know what you decide!

[jazzdad69]

Thanks everyone for your input.  I will be visiting the Estonia and the Steinway L on the weekend.

I'll report back after my field-trip.

FWIW I played a refurbished Steinway M yesterday in the Steinway showroom, then walked 10 feet over and played a new Steinway M.  No comparison.  The new Steinway M was a much better instrument.  Better action and much better tone and 'presence'.  Of course, I have no idea how the refurb was done on the older Steinway M, and I'm not a piano technician so I can't begin to pretend why it sounded less impressive.  But it definitely was noticeable.

This makes me wonder about the variability of piano refurbishment, and has lowered my expectations of the Steinway L that I'll be seeing on Saturday.  But I'll still check it out.

[scorne]

Mason Hamlin A is an amazing piano in your size range, though would probably require an increase in your budget into at least the low 30s. (You can sometimes get significant discount from MSRP). They are available in a few major centres in Canada, (Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary) and are worth trying, particularly if you like the "American sound" of Steinway.

[jazzdad69]

Update: I did a lot of driving this weekend, driving about 7 hours round-trip between cities to try several different pianos "of interest".

Estonia: the piano was beautiful to look at.  The owner told me it was only 2-3 years old, and I believe her.  Beautiful craftsmanship all around, at least from what I could see.

The action was smooth and predictable across the keyboard.  It also had a stiffer action than what I was used to -- not a bad thing, just different.  The owner said it took her a while to get used to the action, but I suppose a technician could adjust it to make it more forgiving.

Sadly, the piano was very much out-of-tune.  Still, I tried to discern what the true sonority of the instrument was.  I played for about 45 minutes, trying to ignore the tuning (not easy to do!) ... but in general, I found the Estonia had a lot of presence.  The mid-range and upper-range of the piano had nice colour, but the low-range was surprisingly weak.  Then again, it's a 5'6" model, so there are limits to what a piano that size can reproduce in the low-end.  Overall, I really heard what people call an 'old-world' sound when  they refer to Estonia.  To my ears, it doesn't sound anything like a Japanese or American piano -- and that's not a bad thing.  It has its own tonal quality -- a very 'European' sound, whatever that might mean.

I was quite impressed with the Estonia but decided it wasn't for me.  It really was a beautiful instrument -- especially for someone who played a lot of Romantic music, or classical literature in general ... but I play probably 80-90% jazz, and only dust off my classical books to "keep my chops up".  It just didn't have the sound I was looking for.

Rebuilt Steinway L circa 1955: The piano originally was purchased in Los Angeles, and spent many years in California before being moved up to Canada in the late 1990's.  A certified Steinway technician / dealer in my area performed a $12,000 restoration on it at that time (circa 2000).

I was met by the owner as well as a certified Steinway technician -- but not the same technician who performed the restoration.  The owner filled me in on the history of the piano, and the technician talked gave his opinion of the piano.  Although he wasn't the one who re-built the piano, he had been the person who had tuned it and performed some minor work on it in the past couple of years.

The piano had uneven tone between the low-mid-high registers.  The tonal transitions between various points in the keyboard was noticeable.  The high-end sounded overly 'crystalline' to my ears, and the bass sounded 'constrained', 'choked', and lacking in warmth.  The mid-to-lower range (the octaves on either side of middle C) had that wonderful Steinway warmth, but the rest of the sound didn't impress that much.  I kept wanting to fall in love with this Steinway L but it just wasn't happening...

Original ivory keys.  Cosmetically they were somewhat worn and discolored, some with hair-line cracks ... but otherwise the keys played and felt fine.

The action felt very Steinway-esque, and that was probably its strongest point.  It felt like a Steinway when you played it.  I know that should sound obvious, but later in this post I'll recount an experience with a 'FrankenSteinway' that DIDN'T feel anything like a Steinway.  More on that soon.

The seller is motivated (he is selling his house and downsizing) and the technician couldn't stop raving about the piano, especially for the price.

But I'm hesitating on this one.  The piano didn't grab me.  It didn't take my breath away.  The technician said that for another $1200 he could get it tuned/regulated etc. exactly how I want.  He threw this comment into the conversation like it was as simple as getting an oil change for your car.  "I can do anything", he kept saying.  "I'll make it sound exactly how you want.  This piano is a steal.  I mean, it's a Steinway!"

His effusive praise for this almost 60-year old piano (with 12 year old rebuild) was impressive but disconcerting.  That's probably what's giving me the most trouble about that piano.  If it's such a steal, why hasn't it sold already?  I know the owner has been trying to sell it for many weeks...and a part of me felt like I wasn't getting truly unbiased information from the technician.  In a way, I felt like I was being 'played' just as much as the piano.   

Rebuilt Steinway L circa 1935: A recent re-build out of California.  The piano had been completely re-done from legs to lid.  It looked brand-new.  Beautiful.  I sat down to play it with high expectations.

It didn't sound like a Steinway.  Not at all.  Nor did it even feel remotely like one.  The store owner said "this is one of the best re-builds I've seen.  They replaced the Steinway action with Renner action throughout!"

I'm not faulting Renner or anything, but to me this piano felt like a FrankenSteinway.  It was a Steinway in name (and body only) -- the guts inside were nothing like a Steinway.  It sounded like a very good quality but very 'generic' American piano.  It was strange playing that instrument -- it would be like driving a beautiful Cadillac, but every tactile response from the car's performance telling you that you're actually driving a basic commuter-car Chevy.  Very odd.

Mason & Hamlin 5'4" (new): Very impressive for a small-ish piano.  Huge bass response!  Nice action.  Felt like a beautiful high-quality instrument throughout.  I'm just not that familiar with the brand, and the price point was higher than I expected.  Impressive piano nonetheless.

Hailun: Nice instrument for the price.  Great tone, good action.  I found the key depth was slightly taller than I was used to, but it was a minor point.  Enjoyable to play.  Heck of a piano for the price.  But the brand is a relatively unknown entity to me.  I noticed small things about the piano as well -- the inner 'decal' on the soundboard was crooked, not applied properly at the factory.  There were tiny 'ripples' in the finish of the body in a couple spots.  I know those are superficial things, but they didn't inspire confidence.

Steinway O (brand new): beautiful in the mid-range and upper register.  Low-end was muddled and lacking in depth and power.  The store owner said he heard it as well and had decided that they were going to replace the bass strings with a different set to correct the sonority problem.  "Come back on Tuesday, it will have new strings and it will sound totally different!"

I'm glad he's so pro-active about getting the instrument up-to-snuff and all that, but ... this is a BRAND-NEW $68,000 (list) instrument.  Shouldn't it be 100% fantastic straight from the factory?  It would be like looking at a new $68,000 BMW, and the dealer saying "oh yes, I've noticed the acceleration is a little sluggish so we're just going to swap out the fuel injection system.  No big deal.  If you come back on Tuesday, it will be a totally different car".

HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE!???

Boston 178: Warm bass response.  Powerful sound.  Very pleasant to play, nice consistent action throughout.  Fantastic piano, really -- especially for the price.  I was really impressed.  It might sound heretical, but the Boston put the brand-new Steinway O to shame, IMHO.

Both pianos had just 'come off the truck' about 3 weeks ago, and hadn't had any work done on them besides tuning.  The 'out-of-the-box' performance of the Boston was stellar.  Can't say the same for the Steinway.  Harsh truth, unfortunately.

---

Summary ...

Well, that's what I've found out -- I'm now going to cogitate and ruminate about this whole episode.  As people have mentioned in other posts, it's a buyer's market now so I think it's in my best interest to sit back and wait.

[hfmadopter]

That was one heck of a trip !

Those Steinways weren't in shape, the bass should have been great in them all.. Course that's just an opinion, obviously it didn't go down that way.

The Mason and Hamlin being nice is not surprising, the Boston is a little bit but they aren't a slouchy piano either.

Everyone raves about Estonia but I haven't heard one in person as yet. online, i don't get impressed. There was a series i saw and listened to from a show with estonias being played and they didn't do it for me.

But rebuilds ? So much depends on what went into them both parts wise and labor.

[outin]

Everyone raves about Estonia but I haven't heard one in person as yet. online, i don't get impressed. There was a series i saw and listened to from a show with estonias being played and they didn't do it for me.

I think his description is quite spot on. It's a piano suitable for people like me who are mainly interested in playing romantic era music and classical in general. They are going for even tone quality and it's seems to be a piano that makes it slightly easier to play the more difficult repertoire. At least for me it was very comfortable to play.

[hfmadopter]

I think his description is quite spot on. It's a piano suitable for people like me who are mainly interested in playing romantic era music and classical in general. They are going for even tone quality and it's seems to be a piano that makes it slightly easier to play the more difficult repertoire. At least for me it was very comfortable to play.

It's something you have to experience in person anyway. Locally we have a Hardman dealer who also sells Baldwin ( or vice versa) and restored used pianos of all makes and models. No Estonia though.

Hardman is nothing to sneeze at either, they have been around since 1842. I'm sure they have their Chinese version but they are beautifully finished pianos that I see in the showroom down the street from my house.. Very tight keys ( direct playing), shorter depth throw than my old Henry F Miller. My wife says they are too small !

[49410enrique]

right on man!
i absolutely love masons, they're freakin incredible, in MOST cases i.e. model for model if i was buying 'sight unseen' brand new, i'd get the mason hamlin, hands down.

as for rebuilt steinways, the ones i have loved most have had renner actions, i prefer it to the 'steinway action' big time, my tech feels the same way, it seems to 'age better' too, especially in unforgiving climates. the only thing i like more is the shigeru action (i.e. the milenium, i think kawai rx has those too, slinkiest smoothest fastest dreamy action i have every played), actually if you were looking at a boston , which are nice, i'd look to a big RX or a med or larger shigeru (i.e. sk5, or even better sk6).

too bad that little estonia didn't work out, but yeah it's  'preference' deal and again you were limited by length but in that size, they are hard to beat


do keep us posted on what you decide. is a used hampburg steinway an option, those are SUPER nice, the non rebuilt steinways i have liked have been from the germans...omg i wish i could test drive a model c...

[keys60]

I'm a Mason A fan myself. Depending on the rebuild, prices can vary wildly. I'd take the Mason over an M (which I love too). Don't mean to trash the Yamaha or Boston, they are good, just not in the league of any other above mention piano, IMHO.

[jazzdad69]

Brief update: I looked at a Steinway O (2012 version), just out of curiosity.

I previously dismissed this option as being too expensive and indulgent.  But I did research on the 'O' models anyway.

I found a Steinway 'O' owner in my area.  She had purchased the piano less than a year ago -- making it one of the 'new' model O pianos in the Steinway catalog.  I contacted her through the dealer and she kindly offered for me to come to her house and try the piano.

Verdict: an impressive instrument.  It had that characteristic Steinway 'feel'.  I enjoyed playing it.

Strangely, the bass wasn't as warm as I would have liked ... maybe it was a voicing issue, I don't know.

Compared to other pianos of the same size, it definitely was 'better' (that aspect of 'better-ness' being totally subjective), especially in terms of the playability and tone.

But then it comes down to price: is a new Steinway O worth it?  Considering it's at least 2x the cost of a similar piano from a different manufacturer -- is it really twice the piano for the money?

For now I'm going to bide my time.  It seems like it's kind of a buyer's market out there for pianos ... I might as well just be patient.

My local Steinway dealer is getting another new Model O in about a month -- I'll be able to compare it with the one I played this week, and compare it also against the Boston and used Yamahas and whatever else they have on the floor.