Chopin's 4th scherzo vs. 4th ballade

[wonzo]

Ahh, these two pieces are the absolute pinnacle of Chopin's maturity. Just imagine what kind of works he would have been writing had he lived another 30 years!

Which piece do you prefer over there other, and which piece do you think is harder? If anyone knows the technical difficulties of both, please do tell. I'm not trying to learn them at the moment, but it's always fun to know these sorts of things.

I personally love the 4th ballade, but the 4th scherzo really takes the cake for me.

Favorite performance:

(this guy is a genius)

[the_technicalman]

Chopin's 4th ballade!? If there was one work that represents the most complete mastery of form in the entirety of Chopin's musical output, this work would take that place hands down. The ballade form suit Chopin's juxtaposition of lyrical first subjects and fondness for variation - in the same way Rachmaninov struggled with the structure of his 3rd piano concerto.

The 4th Scherzo is a real party-pooper with considerable compositional depth, but it cowers before the 4th ballade for sheer scale and emotional intensity. In no other work of Chopin's does the opening and ending so signify a higher order, a mystical or spiritual presence, that so reflect Chopin's beloved Beethoven's Sonata - Opus 111 - for example.

Stanislav plays very well, but Pletnev's rendition is a masterclass in tonal reflexes.

In terms of technical difficulty - the 4th Ballade is full of Bach like inner voicing and third passages in the coda, but they require minimal time investment to play with assurance. Try Chopin's winter winds etude for stamina requirements!

[wonzo]

I find Pletnev's playing of the 4th scherzo very clunky and awkward. He also seems to be having some technical problems. (im currently listening to him as i type this)

[49410enrique]

Chopin's 4th ballade!? If there was one work that represents the most complete mastery of form in the entirety of Chopin's musical output, this work would take that place hands down. ...

a respected opinion.

i would disgree, i in terms of form it might be more appropriate to give that title to the concerti or the sonatas (especially the cello sonata).

at least there's something to compare it too. the ballade he pretty much 'created'/invented , it's hard to compare it to others from different composers at the time, there were none. and those that have come since have had time to 'evolve' which is also an unfair comparison.

with sonata form, we have clearly established norms, traditions, and common practices and can thus compare and evaluate againist a more 'objective' standard.

not dissing the ballade or your opnion, just the way you presented it as absolute fact.

i'm not trying to say my ideas on it are 'form gospel' either but im at least trying to draw on examples that can be studied with a littel less skewed perspective.

welcome to the forum tough, we are glad to have you!

as for my opinion on the ___vs.____, i tend to not really have opinions on those types of comparisons unless it for a practical purpose, ie. programming, as in if the OP were saying I have these two works learned and am putting together a recital consisting of ____, ____, etc in that order, I wnat to include one of these, which of these would fit best ____ vs ____, that kind of stuff makes a little more sense to me.

also the maturity comment, again in the case of the cello sonata, pretty sure that came after these two, i would venture to say it's probably more mature. but meh i haven't thought about it too much, whether something is mature or not doesn't affect how much i like listening to or playing a piece. i either connect with it or i don't.
 

[danhuyle]

On the video, I find the material from 2:00 - 2:15 the trickiest to get musically, then it comes back in the later on. Stuff from that point onwards is tricky. The going up is more challenging than the going down.

4th Ballade - Harder to hold together (playing from start to finish) than 4th Scherzo.


To learn 4th Ballade, start with the coda and memorize it before memorizing other parts. Then I learned the material after the A major arpeggio after the restatement of the opening theme. The stuff from there is more "smooth sailing" than the preceding material.

4th Scherzo, I'm practicing playing the middle section from memory. Tough little thing to get it to stick in the brain.


My favorite recording of 4th Scherzo is Yundi Li from "Yundi Li Live in Concert". Just when I thought Ashenazy's recording was good, Li's playing is even better.

Otherwise, watch people in the Chopin competition play 4th Scherzo.

This is only what I've experienced playing these 2 pieces.

[the_technicalman]

a respected opinion.

i would disgree, i in terms of form it might be more appropriate to give that title to the concerti or the sonatas (especially the cello sonata).

at least there's something to compare it too. the ballade he pretty much 'created'/invented , it's hard to compare it to others from different composers at the time, there were none. and those that have come since have had time to 'evolve' which is also an unfair comparison.

Schumann, Liszt, Loewe, Baumfelder, Grieg, all composed Ballades.

The reason why the the 4th ballade and the ballades as a whole represent such complete  mastery of form is precisely the thesis that you argued your point on - Chopin's sonatas do not represent anywhere near the same level of experimentation on the sonata form as Schumann, Schubert, and Beethoven took. Chopin's 2nd sonata consists of a single, blatant sonata form first movement, and the 3rd sonata pales in terms of structure and form beside the Liszt Sonata. However his ballades use double-function forms and variation like motivic connections to create a seamless whole that seems much more suited to his smooth, flowing phrase-lengths. Chopin's endless problems with structure seen in works like the Preludes seem resolved in the tied-together 1st and 2nd subjects of the Ballades. The 4th Ballade seems to be one of the most natural works in Chopin's repertoire, without any forced modulations or changes as you see in the Liszt Sonata for example.

[wonzo]

Chopin's preludes weren't badly composed, LMAO. They're just very hard to interpret. Go listen to Ivo Pogorelich's album of the Chopin preludes and your eyes will be opened.

And I don't think anything Chopin wrote sounds unnatural.

[49410enrique]

Schumann, Liszt, Loewe, Baumfelder, Grieg, all composed Ballades.

The reason why t...precisely the thesis that you argued your point on -...

i sincerely apologize if you got the impression i was arguing or proposing a 'thesis' i simply stated i respected your opinion. and stated mine (as opinion). nothing more.

you have some information i think others will enjoy reading. though im not sure why you provide it in a quote from my post. i believe one thing. you beleive another. that's cool. i don't need you to believe my view nor do i have a desire to change mine. i have my reasons and that's that. we can both love music and differ in our thoughts on the details. it's all good. i don't need to 'be right' as it really doesn't matter to me. if you want to be 'right' sure i guess you win. but i'm not sure exactly what you win as there was no argument or debate...

[the_technicalman]

Chopin's preludes weren't badly composed, LMAO. They're just very hard to interpret. Go listen to Ivo Pogorelich's album of the Chopin preludes and your eyes will be opened.

And I don't think anything Chopin wrote sounds unnatural.

I didn't say they were badly composed, only if you look at the worries Chopin related through his correspondence in his years in Valdemossa, Majorca, you can see that he struggled greatly with ordering and individual structuring, let alone binding together the preludes to work neatly.

Ivo Pogorelich is a genius, but also a master of distortion. For a truly noble rendition, there is none greater than Cortot.