Piano Posture Input - Help!

[nalaaa]

Hello,
    I wanted to post a picture or video of my average posture and see if any of you forum-goer's could lend a hand.  I suffer from chronic pain and I want to try my hardest to be sure that I'm not doing anything dreadfully wrong with my posture that would worsen my troubles even more. I simply want to be able to play and ignore what pain i can.  My main concerns are getting comfortable, arm/wrists/back, and bench dimensions.  If you could, comment with your opinion on my seating, posture, and arm dimensions.  I know this is supposed to be the sort of thing where I either find a teacher or discover the correct dimensions & posture myself, but I am proverbially up a creek  .  Thanks in advance,
NaLaAa

[hmpiano]

I would say your back is hunched up and your neck isn't vertical.  Your bench seems quite high.

[nalaaa]

Yeah, I was able to adjust my neck a bit closer to vertical later in that clip, though its hard to keep it there without deliberate focus on 'bac'k and 'up'.  I'm a self taught guitarrist of many years, and self taught at piano for about 5 years- my twin sister would always be the one doing lessons, pieces, and recitals, and I ended up in front of the instrument because I loved to explore musically.  I am going to try to find an Alexander Technique teacher.  My bench feels high too, and honestly, with the angle set up, I figured my elbows and wrists would appear much higher than they actually do.  Fixing posture is tough for me; I can break a bad routine, but the progress seems to be unadaptive, mostly. Thanks for the reply, hm, and I'm glad to have joined these forums! 

[hmpiano]

Yeah 'bac'k and 'up' is the way to go - and find another seat.

[keypeg]

No, do not go back and up!  First thing, get the book "What Every Pianist Needs to Know About the Body" by Thomas Mark.  You do seem to be too high and maybe sitting too far back on the piano bench.  It's better not to say too much.  Start with the book, and if you can get a good teacher - or even Alexander - that would be great.

[hmpiano]

I assumed 'back 'n up' as in 'Directionally speaking, we want our neck back and up' from: https://markjosefsberg.com/alexander-technique-tips

[nyiregyhazi]

No, do not go back and up!  First thing, get the book "What Every Pianist Needs to Know About the Body" by Thomas Mark.  You do seem to be too high and maybe sitting too far back on the piano bench.  It's better not to say too much.  Start with the book, and if you can get a good teacher - or even Alexander - that would be great.

Why would back and up do him any harm? It's exactly what he needs to do. While these things are slightly more complex than simply aiming to move in the opposite direction to that in which you've gone too far, I see no reason why it would do him harm. Alexander technique normally speaks of "forward and up", but he's going to need to straighten his spine out first. The only danger would be of missing the up part and simply crushing his head back into the torso. By thinking of getting longer, he'll be fine.

I remember you said your own problem was overstraightening, but that doesn't mean others aren't in a position of needing to be straighter. This isn't generic one size fits all advice being given to a person in the wrong position for it. It's clearly exactly what he needs. While the Thomas Mark book contains more depth, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a person who sticks their head out forward striving to bring it back, as long as the neck is lengthened out as this happens.

[nalaaa]

Thanks, guys.   I wanted to mention that if anyone didn't have the 'original' Alexander DVD, I can get you a link, just message me.

[nalaaa]

Some music that influences me-

Jim Brickman - Secret Love

Duncan Browne -

French Kicks - So far we are -

[keypeg]

Why would back and up do him any harm?

Because of all the harm that this kind of advice has done.  And no, I was not thinking about my own personal experience.  When I got the book that I mentioned, the author talks about the general advice that is given to piano students (and others) and the results from this.  I recognized a fair bit of the things that I had followed, including the the end results.  What I did not realize is how many people the wrong ideas of "posture" have affected.  There should be NO external direction via the Internet telling people how they should sit, etc.  That should be done with a teacher who knows what he or she is doing.  The harm is tremendous.  As one expert out there put it, "good posture" can be the most harmful at all - meaning the attempt to have it, and the strain it causes.

In regards to what the OP needs to do:  As long as he is sitting that high up, with his bench that close and sitting on the bench with little weight in the feet, trying to move his torso "back" and upright, is nothing but posing oneself, and creates an impossibility.  If you try to reach for something that is lower, you have to stoop.  If you aren't balanced in your feet, you'll strain your body otherwise.  This should be done with an observing teacher, because trying to fix oneself from the outside is not a good idea.  If not with an observing teacher, at least get the feeling of balance internally, but starting to understand how your body works (hence, the book I recommended.)

[nyiregyhazi]

Because of all the harm that this kind of advice has done.  And no, I was not thinking about my own personal experience.  When I got the book that I mentioned, the author talks about the general advice that is given to piano students (and others) and the results from this.  I recognized a fair bit of the things that I had followed, including the the end results.  What I did not realize is how many people the wrong ideas of "posture" have affected.  There should be NO external direction via the Internet telling people how they should sit, etc.  That should be done with a teacher who knows what he or she is doing.  The harm is tremendous.  As one expert out there put it, "good posture" can be the most harmful at all - meaning the attempt to have it, and the strain it causes.

In regards to what the OP needs to do:  As long as he is sitting that high up, with his bench that close and sitting on the bench with little weight in the feet, trying to move his torso "back" and upright, is nothing but posing oneself, and creates an impossibility.  If you try to reach for something that is lower, you have to stoop.  If you aren't balanced in your feet, you'll strain your body otherwise.  This should be done with an observing teacher, because trying to fix oneself from the outside is not a good idea.  If not with an observing teacher, at least get the feeling of balance internally, but starting to understand how your body works (hence, the book I recommended.)

Even among deeply knowledgeable teachers, the importance of straightening the neck is exactly what would be pointed out. The fact that there is room for deeper explanation does not negate the value of straight up simple advice and in particular it does not make it harmful advice. When someone pokes their head out forwards, they force many muscles to work hard in order to maintain equilibrium against gravity. He needs to keep his head back, to eliminate that unwanted workload.

The fact that something can theoretically be done to excess does not automatically make it poor advice. For someone who errs so far to one side, striving to keep the head back and up will result in a drastically lesser evil than the present habit. It's unlikely that he'll even end up sitting as aligned as would be desirable, never mind going to the opposite extreme. When someone's habit is to collapse the spine, to describe advising them to be more upright as a "lesser evil" would be putting absurdly midly. Only when someone has been observed and seen to force uprightness with wasted efforts could such advice be considered potentially harmful rather than a source of likely improvement.

[timothy42b]

Bad posture isn't an accident.  It may or may not be a habit.  Often it is caused by muscular weakness somewhere.  Sometimes it is poor eyesight.

I watched the clip.  The back is straighter than I'd expected from the opening clip.  The neck is a bit forward but maybe not as far as some. 

The shoulders are very very stiff.  The overall tension made me tired watching.  I would think there is enough tension here to limit fast playing. 

The weight seems to be all on the bench.  That really doesn't work.  It needs to be balanced between bench and seat. 

Do you need glasses?  At times you lean forward extremely far and throw your neck into a bad angle but your hands hadn't moved forward.  I see this in nearsighted people.  I do it myself at times. 

[nalaaa]

Thank you Tim, and I can assure you that what makes you feel physically tired from seeing is much better than experiencing my same pain in the shoulders and shoulderblades.   And what do you mean by "bench" and "seat"?  A current goal of mine is to use the muscles on the lower hamstring as a sitting base, instead of the tailbone.

[nalaaa]

if anyone else has advice, please ignore the textbook definition of "posture".  I am not using the word in its sense of being a "westernized cultural virus", but, simply, how my body is acting by my trying to simulate random playing on the piano

[timothy42b]

  And what do you mean by "bench" and "seat"?  A current goal of mine is to use the muscles on the lower hamstring as a sitting base, instead of the tailbone.

I mistyped, spelling a word that rhymed instead of the one I meant.

(stupid computer should know what I meant!  <g>)

I meant your weight should not be completely on the piano bench, but should be shared between your seat and your feet.  Some of the weight is on the bench, some of it is on the floor.

To place weight on the floor requires some flex in the hamstrings, you are correct.