Pretentious or not?

[werq34ac]

So everybody compares tests grades after they get them back. And then the guys say "HA! I beat you!" And the girls say, Nice job!. Well guys say Nice job too, but a lot of them say I beat you. But when someone gets something other than an A, people usually say hahaha a B? What'd you do wrong? (note: this is in AP Calc).  Remember that everyone in that class is generally in the top 20% of our class. And no one gets lower than a C on tests. The person who gets a C earns a sympathetic "ouch." But if you say that to someone else in a not so advanced class, it's considered pretentious. So when someone gets a B in a less advanced class they might consider that a good grade. So you can't say only a B? But then you can't say nice job either because they might consider a B bad.

In general I usually avoid conversations about test grades outside my group of friends.

[perprocrastinate]

I wouldn't exactly say pretentious, but just that it's the nature of competition. We feel good about ourselves after an accomplishment, and it's okay to be a little prideful after a "victory", as long as you don't go overboard. A friend of mine gets higher scores than me on average, and he rubs that in my face a lot. He even goes as far as saying that he doesn't study at all (although I highly doubt that). It's annoying, but eh.

I usually don't care if I occasionally get a C, because I know I can do better. Same goes for people I know. It's a matter of effort. We've all proved our worth by being able to get into and sustain multiple "advanced" classes (I'm in AP Calc as well).

Give people the respect they deserve, and acknowledge their relative standards. That's my general ethic toward this sort of thing.

[faulty_damper]

There are sex differences in behavior.  Males are likely to express competition in an overt way.  Females are likely to focus on group cohesion.  "Ha, I beat you" is an overt expression of competition.  "Good grade" is focusing on the bond between girls.

For males, they prefer directness.
For females, they play nice.

The difficult interplay is what happens when males and females interact.  Directness by males is seen as rudeness/lack of sociability by females.  Niceness by females is seen as confusing by males.

Evolutionary biologists/psychologists would interpret these behaviors as a survival advantage.  Competition by males leads to the strongest to pass on their genes.  Cohesion by females is for protection against rape by males.  This is why "slut" is such a powerful word that is used amongst females (both girls and women).  This is a protection method by expelling the "slut" because of guilt-by-association.  If a slut is allowed in a group, that person's reputation damages everyones reputation in the group.


A smart female, Becky, can also use such tactics against a rival, Mary.  Perhaps the Mary is very pretty and all the Bob's and Bill's try to woo Mary.  Becky is envious of her beauty and starts calling her a "slut".  Soon, other girls start avoiding Mary.  Mary, whom is clearly very beautiful, is now the outcast because of how beautiful she is.  Becky, has the face of a donkey. 

In the above scenario, which plays itself out every single day in schools and at the work place, Becky is attempting to improve her status by lowering the status of another girl.  Becky cannot improve her status because she is donkey-faced and no amount of makeup can cover it up.  The only option is to lower Mary's status which was as easy as saying the word "slut".


Males generally do not use such covert acts against another male.  Competition against another male is done so directly such as "Ha, I beat you!"

[j_menz]

...

I'm guessing most of your experience with women is exclusively at the theoretical level.

[faulty_damper]

No, of course not.  But my understanding of women is at the theoretical level.

[werq34ac]

There are sex differences in behavior.  Males are likely to express competition in an overt way.  Females are likely to focus on group cohesion.  "Ha, I beat you" is an overt expression of competition.  "Good grade" is focusing on the bond between girls.

For males, they prefer directness.
For females, they play nice.

The difficult interplay is what happens when males and females interact.  Directness by males is seen as rudeness/lack of sociability by females.  Niceness by females is seen as confusing by males.

Evolutionary biologists/psychologists would interpret these behaviors as a survival advantage.  Competition by males leads to the strongest to pass on their genes.  Cohesion by females is for protection against rape by males.  This is why "slut" is such a powerful word that is used amongst females (both girls and women).  This is a protection method by expelling the "slut" because of guilt-by-association.  If a slut is allowed in a group, that person's reputation damages everyones reputation in the group.


A smart female, Becky, can also use such tactics against a rival, Mary.  Perhaps the Mary is very pretty and all the Bob's and Bill's try to woo Mary.  Becky is envious of her beauty and starts calling her a "slut".  Soon, other girls start avoiding Mary.  Mary, whom is clearly very beautiful, is now the outcast because of how beautiful she is.  Becky, has the face of a donkey. 

In the above scenario, which plays itself out every single day in schools and at the work place, Becky is attempting to improve her status by lowering the status of another girl.  Becky cannot improve her status because she is donkey-faced and no amount of makeup can cover it up.  The only option is to lower Mary's status which was as easy as saying the word "slut".


Males generally do not use such covert acts against another male.  Competition against another male is done so directly such as "Ha, I beat you!"

Becky's standing will always be low. Whether one pretty girl is a slut or not will not change that. Her social standing will not go up based on the rumor that someone may have slept with more than one person. I mean we know that Becky is ugly, and has a nasty personality (calling people sluts out of jealousy). The first thing a guy looks for in a girl is her looks. The second is her personality. A lot of guys like smart girls, but that's because smart girls say more interesting things.

[ajspiano]

Becky's standing will always be low. Whether one pretty girl is a slut or not will not change that. Her social standing will not go up based on the rumor that someone may have slept with more than one person. I mean we know that Becky is ugly, and has a nasty personality (calling people sluts out of jealousy). The first thing a guy looks for in a girl is her looks. The second is her personality. A lot of guys like smart girls, but that's because smart girls say more interesting things.

Yes, but becky's standing comparitively to mary's will be improved by her actions if they are successful in discrediting mary, and she managed not to have her actions reflect back on her.

[faulty_damper]

Yeah, Becky's status remains the same but relative to Mary's, it's actually an improvement.  She uses that form of bullying to lower someone else's status.

The sad thing about this type of bullying is that very few people even think of it as bullying.  Becky will almost always get away with it.  The only time she won't is if she does it to someone who is even socially smarter than she is; she speaks up.  In this case, the intended target will fight back.  She may call her out on it in front of everyone or make a direct confrontation.  Because Becky uses subversive actions, a direct confrontation is not something she will have experience with.  Becky will have no choice but to back down.  If this happens, which is rare, Becky will have her status lowered. 

[werq34ac]

Yes, but becky's standing comparitively to mary's will be improved by her actions if they are successful in discrediting mary, and she managed not to have her actions reflect back on her.

To be crude, just because I would no longer bang Mary in case she has STDs, doesn't mean I would bang Becky. Plain and simple. Becky is still the ugly girl she is. Her ranking may have gone up, but her looks haven't. Why are we having this conversation again? It doesn't have much to do with being pretentious..

[ajspiano]

To be crude, just because I would no longer bang Mary in case she has STDs, doesn't mean I would bang Becky. Plain and simple. Becky is still the ugly girl she is. Her ranking may have gone up, but her looks haven't. Why are we having this conversation again? It doesn't have much to do with being pretentious..

Well that depends whether this situation is in a bubble or in the real world. If Becky is your only option you're going to at least consider it. Also agree that this is a fairly misdirected conversation at this point.

Edit:
Also, since girls who employ such tactics are quite often attractive in their own right the point has relevence.

In highschool one of my mates quite casually hooked up with a girl (very hot) a few times who was unfortunate enough to have had (and recovered) from leukemia. Another perfectly attractive girl was jealous about this and VERY actively tried to convince my friend that it was wrong to be with a girl who was "diseased". real nice. I doubt she would've had any trouble seducing my friend purely on her own merits if she'd actually tried to.

[faulty_damper]

To be crude, just because I would no longer bang Mary in case she has STDs, doesn't mean I would bang Becky. Plain and simple. Becky is still the ugly girl she is. Her ranking may have gone up, but her looks haven't.

Just to clarify, Becky's status has NOT gone up.  She has lowered someone else's status.

Why are we having this conversation again? It doesn't have much to do with being pretentious..

The issue is not about pretension which is an interpretation of the action.  The root of the action is a public display of status.  This is why we are discussing status.

Status is something that can very easily drop by the actions of others as in the example of the Becky talking behind Mary's back.  Contrary, status is something that is difficult to increase because it requires time and effort.  Becky could learn to be a nicer person but IF, and only if, she realizes that she's a b**ch AND she does not like her social standing and wants to do something about it.

If you can draw parallels with the Becky and Mary example and apply it to males, you'll understand why we are discussing status.  Females display status by their social standing relative to others (clothing, makeup, higher status social circles, "slut", etc.)  Males tend to display direct forms of status (cars, iphones, sports trophies, grades, "Ha, I beat you", etc.) 

[faulty_damper]

Also, since girls who employ such tactics are quite often attractive in their own right the point has relevence.

No, that's not quite right.  The girl who is envious is comparing herself to another girl who is even more attractive.  In this case, she doesn't see herself as attractive relative to another girl even though she is attractive in her own right.  She may be a 9, but compared to the 10, she's less attractive, hence the envy and/or jealousy.

This is a reason why females friends are very close in physical attractiveness to avoid envying each other.

[ajspiano]

No, that's not quite right.  The girl who is envious is comparing herself to another girl who is even more attractive.  In this case, she doesn't see herself as attractive relative to another girl even though she is attractive in her own right.  She may be a 9, but compared to the 10, she's less attractive, hence the envy and/or jealousy.

This is a reason why females friends are very close in physical attractiveness to avoid envying each other.

Perhaps, its a little more complex though since attractiveness is subjective.

In the example I sited the girl who was trying to bring down the other was probably as attractive or more so (at least in my opinion) - she was annoyed about the decision of my friend without thinking that she was actually a "9 compared to a 10"

[faulty_damper]

So both are 9s... however, what that girl didn't have was the guy so it was simply envy.

[j_menz]

And I thought this thread couldn't get any sillier, or more offensive.

[ajspiano]

If one is too emotionally survive the internet its probably best to embrace the silliness.

[j_menz]

If one is too emotionally survive the internet its probably best to embrace the silliness.

I see the silliness extends to grammar as well. Oh, the horror!!

[ajspiano]

I see the silliness extends to grammar as well. Oh, the horror!!

**If one is too emotional to survive the internet its probably best to break ones computer.

Edit:
I guess I still omitted an apostrophe. :/

Edit2:
Would you pick on me if I omitted a slur from a recording i posted in the audition room?.

Edit3:
*suspects j_menz would to pick on an omitted slur where it did alter the piece so significantly as to make it nonsensical.

[j_menz]

Edit:
I guess I still omitted an apostrophe. :/

Yes, but I've called off apostrophe man as you have seen the error of your ways.

Edit2:
Would you pick on me if I omitted a slur from a recording i posted in the audition room?.

Composer's slur or editor's slur?

Edit3:
*suspects j_menz would pick on an omitted slur where it did alter the piece so significantly as to make it like nonsensical.

Or even in "lesser" cases where it departed from the proper sense of the piece.

[ajspiano]

Yes, but I've called off apostrophe man as you have seen the error of your ways.

Thankyou for your consideration.

Composer's slur or editor's slur?

While composers intention is a legitimate interpretive aim, you have never struck me as being an urtext snob.

Supposing it was an editors slur, how would you know it was ommitted unless I named the edition as well as the work - which is not the part of the posting convention for the audition room.

Or even in "lesser" cases where it departed from the proper sense of the piece.

luckily not something I'm that likely to do anyway since I tend to pay a lot more attention to musical grammar than I do english grammar, - or at least if I was guilty of it it would be unlikely that I'd dispute your opinion or be in anyway disagreeable.

[j_menz]

While composers intention is a legitimate interpretive aim, you have never struck me as being an urtext snob.

I'm not. Composers are as likely to make typos as anyone else.  Given the personal habits of a great many of them, perhaps even more likely.

And since "Urtext" seems to get applied to anything that has been within a bulls roar of a music scholar at some time during the publishing process, it's become somewhat flexible in meaning.  I'd much prefer a well edited score to a sloppily created urtext one.

[ajspiano]

I'd much prefer a well edited score to a sloppily created urtext one.

yes - I'm looking at busoni's instructive edition of the inventions right now.. bach's urtext, while its good to have, is just about a waste of time by comparison as far as from a learning perspective.

On topic: Either that or I, and Busoni, are both being fairly pretentious..  discuss.

[j_menz]

To sidestep (at least for the moment) an answer to that, let me add in another example.

Towards the end of his life, Liszt had Alexander Siloti (a pupil/friend and editor of Liszt) make a "transcription" of Liszt's own performance of Un Sospiro.  Now Liszt had never been one to slavishly follow anyone else's score, so it is difficult to imagine he applied greater rigour to his own. The purpose of this collaborative effort was to accurately reflect Lisz's own performance of the work, something Liszt had come to recognise may not be evident from his own published score.  Any Urtext edition will be of the Liszt score, not the Siloti one, but which might better reflect Liszt's own intentions better?

As an aside, the 1st Tschaikovsky Piano Concerto we have today is Siloti's edition, not Tschaikovsky's original. The two disagreed about certain (rather extensive) editorial decisions Siloti had made and so actually toured playing the two versions in alternate performances. Tschaikovsky conceded.

[ajspiano]

Towards the end of his life, Liszt had Alexander Siloti (a pupil/friend and editor of Liszt) make a "transcription" of Liszt's own performance of Un Sospiro. Any Urtext edition will be of the Liszt score, not the Siloti one, but which might better reflect Liszt's own intentions better?

If liszt was anything like me then the siloti would be far more accurate. I personally find accurate score writing to be the bane of composition. I almost always write notes only, and sometimes they are are barely definite - rather just generalised harmonic directions..

Different kind of thing to the busoni inventions, I percieve them to be a descretely (almost in code since you have to know what you are looking at) written account of what it might have been like to take actual lessons on the inventions from bach.

[j_menz]

Different kind of thing to the busoni inventions, I percieve them to be a descretely (almost in code since you have to know what you are looking at) written account of what it might have been like to take actual lessons on the inventions from bach.

My edition of the inventions has the manuscript pages (photcopied) interspersed with the (I think Urtext) score.  If his handwriting is anything to go by, actual lessons on the inventions from Bach might have been rather troubling.

[ajspiano]

busoni's edition is heavily marked, and from an instructive perspective relating to composition.

Generally the motif is marked with a slur, then there may be slurs over slurs marking how motifs work together to form phrases.

Whole sections are separated by double bar lines (sometimes mid bar - where there is an anacrusis to a section for example).

All the ornamentation is fully notated, and in some cases alternative executions fully notated.

Extensive fingering, and alternative fingerings are offered, often detailing possible use of baroque style fingerings like 3/4 over 5 in ascending scale type situations. (provides quite a contrast to czerny's fingerings for example)

There are also some general comments and practice notes for key areas in each work.

....

looking at them with the right mind set it more or less details how to write them as well as play them.

[outin]

And I thought this thread couldn't get any sillier, or more offensive.

What else would you expect, after all these are high school (?) age boys. Let them have their fun, they'll learn... I am sure they wil be very happy to bang Becky when they are 50, fat, lost their money and teeth (not that I am hoping that to any of them).

Funny though, I can't remember anything like this from my school years...either it was different times, different culture or I was completely oblivious to social behavior of this type...

EDIT:

I notice that you effectively managed to get this thread back to track, good work!

[j_menz]

All the ornamentation is fully notated, and in some cases alternative executions fully notated.

Does he have an edition of Couperin?

I love Couperin, but he uses his own ornament notation (or maybe it's just standard baroque french, but either way it's enbtirely new to me).

My edition has a (very concise and somewhat cryptic) explanation at the beginning and a faithful reproduction of the weird marks.

I'm afraid I'm rather inclined just to fake it. Sounds fine, though.

[j_menz]

EDIT:

I notice that you effectively managed to get this thread back to track, good work!

LOL. Except insofar as we may be seen to actually be demonstrating whether or not we are pretentious, I fear it's just another hijack!

*** Puts on pirate hat, gives cracker to polly and says Aaaarrrgh!

[ajspiano]

Does he have an edition of Couperin?

I have no idea, - I picked up his inventions from IMSLP, only because I've been looking at A LOT of editions for the inventions because I'm toying with the thought of producing my own instructive edition (which may again be fairly pretentious). I believe he did edit a very significant amount of bach, no idea about anything else.

[ajspiano]

What else would you expect, after all these are high school (?) age boys. Let them have their fun, they'll learn...

I think I'm a little resentful of that comment - but I guess I should probably not talk crap on the internet if I do not wish to be perceived in such a light.

[j_menz]

I'm toying with the thought of producing my own instructive edition (which may again be fairly pretentious).

Nah, truly pretentious would be toying with the idea of writing a new set to overcome the shortcomings of the Bach ones.

[ajspiano]

Nah, truly pretentious would be toying with the idea of writing a new set to overcome the shortcomings of the Bach ones.

I'm not that self-important.

That would kind of defeat my purpose anyway - Its not necessary to write whole new works to produce what I feel is missing from everything else I've managed to get my hands on so far. Its still early days though, and I have a few fairly important items in the mail regarding the project that may make it a fruitless endeavour.

The content is already in the pieces, its the pointing out of the extraordinary amount content that's missing.

[faulty_damper]

Funny though, I can't remember anything like this from my school years...either it was different times, different culture or I was completely oblivious to social behavior of this type...

I was completely oblivious to this behavior up until I started to study bullying.  Having a background on gender/sex differences helped.

But part of the reason why I started studying it is because of a woman, many years older than me, was bullying me.  She engaged in subversive bullying, i.e. saying negative things to the dance teacher about me (she's the dance teacher's assistant), giving me dirty looks, etc.  Because of her subversive behavior, the dance teacher has openly yelled at me in front of everyone while she tries to suppress the smile that comes across her face.

She's been doing it for more than a year.  I didn't know why at first and the only conclusion was that she was envious of my dance ability, which didn't make sense because I started out as a beginner with hardly any dance experience while she has been dancing tango for many years.  It was only when I caught her scoffing at me when she saw me practice that I knew it was envy.

She initiated her bullying tactics in an attempt to get me to drop the class.  But I continued to take the class and one day, I was fed up with sucking so I decided to practice.  Three weeks later the women I danced with said, "you're really good!" "you're a really great dancer!", and numerous other complements.  The assistant teacher saw how much I improved and hung her head down.  I made real her fear.

This woman is probably in her late 30s or early 40s, overweight, unmarried, no boyfriend.  She has lots to be unhappy about.  But bullying me makes her feel just a bit better about herself.  

[outin]

I think I'm a little resentful of that comment - but I guess I should probably not talk crap on the internet if I do not wish to be perceived in such a light.

Well, I didn't actually think that everyone in this thread are in high school age... that's why the question mark (I am sure J_menz will explain what a question mark is, in case you don't know ).

[ajspiano]

Well, I didn't actually think that everyone in this thread are in high school age... that's why the question mark (I am sure J_menz will explain what a question mark is, in case you don't know ).

Perhaps you could take a leaf out of busoni's book in future and "fully notate" your bogus grammatical symbols.

[outin]

Perhaps you could take a leaf out of busoni's book in future and "fully notate" your bogus grammatical symbols.

I don't ruin books 

I would never claim that my grammar in English is anything more than bogus, after all I am just a poor foreigner

[outin]

I was completely oblivious to this behavior up until I started to study bullying.  Having a background on gender/sex differences helped.

Bullying of course existed in my school days (and I was often in the receiving end before I learned to manipulate people, I wasn’t big enough to use violence), but it wasn’t really gender specific. Guys bullied the girls and the other way round just as much. But this was in the lower school grades, after that people grew up a little bit. Later we mostly bullied the poor teachers actually… I think this being “popular” or “unpopular” and the importance of social hierarchy in the schooling system may be something that is specific to the US teen culture. In my younger days you either had more friends or less friends and you either liked someone or not, but the social hierarchy wasn’t really THAT important. Only for those unfortunate people who for some reason did not get along with anyone.

On the other hand…maybe it has something to do with the way people in this country tend to bully themselves instead of other people…

But part of the reason why I started studying it is because of a woman, many years older than me, was bullying me.  She engaged in subversive bullying, i.e. saying negative things to the dance teacher about me (she's the dance teacher's assistant), giving me dirty looks, etc.  Because of her subversive behavior, the dance teacher has openly yelled at me in front of everyone while she tries to suppress the smile that comes across her face.
…
This woman is probably in her late 30s or early 40s, overweight, unmarried, no boyfriend.  She has lots to be unhappy about.  But bullying me makes her feel just a bit better about herself. 

As you say she is probably so unhappy that she doesn’t care about what she does to other people. But you might also encounter people who are simply sociopathic. Individuals like this exist everywhere. Also among males, but it is true that their actual behavior is often different. Males simply bully in a different way, some of it natural because of the hormonal differences (more prone to direct aggression) and upbringing (learning to use their fists). But again, there are individuals who do not fit this model.