Hi, can I ask some questions about Intervals?

[ekso]

Hi, I found this forum through google, I did a search on "Relative Pitch Forum" I really can't find any information regarding Relative Pitch anywhere online, all I seem to find is a bunch of flash players which test your Relative Pitch ability...... Which is great! but It's not what I am looking for... yet.

So I thought I would sign up here and post.

I am fairly decent with my Relative Pitch within the 1 octave range. I used the beginnings of songs to lock the interval sound into my head, and then using those neat little flash players you find online to test yourself, I would give it like 15minutes a day, I have been doing this for a little while now and I don't have to rely on the beginning of songs anymore to identify notes, I can kind of listen to the interval and within a split second I normally have the answer...... at least 99% of the time I do however I can't go above the Octave range?

I don't know of any songs to help me lock those intervals in my head, y'know the ones above the octave all the way upto 2nd octave? I really want to get good at these intervals as I'd like to be able to hear songs and arrange them with ease instead of mindless trial and error all the time to find that correct "note"

And another question I have, how do people identify intervals that are played together? I am so bad at this, do you use the start of songs to get the feel of them down? If you do this, can somebody please show me some examples?

Do you use songs for the Octave+ ranges? if you do I would be really interested to know which ones you use!

I know this is slightly off topic but I have a question about Time Signitures, I didn't want to create a new thread,

Now I am not sure if it's just me, but I really struggle with finding the correct time signitures, I am using a program called "Auralia" for musical ear training. And I get like half the questions wrong on time signatures even on the beginner setting. Is there a full proof method to getting the time signatures down? I try to find the pulse of the song, tap my foot or tap the table or w/e and feel for when I think there is a new measure, but I'm so bad at this? How can people find time signatures that are all over the place? I find it so diffcult please help!

Thanks for taking the time to read through!

James.

[ekso]

Thank you so much for your help

[outin]

It seems your questions are a not so easy to answer. I personally cannot help you, because I have not done any aural training or tried to transcribe anything, I have been more concerned in reading music. I think what you are trying to do is something that needs training, but there must be some tricks to help you learn faster, I just don't know what they would be...maybe also comes easier to some people.

[hfmadopter]

Thank you so much for your help

I think you are not getting replies because people here in general are not doing what you are doing. Taking myself for instance, I do some arranging but it's written arranging. From that in the past I would memorize, since getting a bit older now I tend to just read music, maybe memorize siome passages and not try to memorize too much of an entire piece. Never mind picking time signatures and octaves out of the air by ear. Nothing wrong with that, but at this point you could teach me those skills ! Out of our entire group maybe you will find one or two other people who do what you do and they may not have been online recently to see your post.

I do hope you get help in what you are looking to do. What you are asking is a rather new topic here I believe.
David

[ekso]

I didn't want to come across the way I did. I feel really rotten about getting impatient, especially since after my last reply you 2 fellas explained to me that I'm on a touchy subject on this Forum. I'm sorry I had no idea! I thought the Piano players were more into the Ear Training side of things over most other instruments, and I assumed my thread was just being ignored because I am unknown here, and new!

I am posting back here to let you know what I have found out. It's actually really simple, I had no idea that anything above the octave is actually the SAME! as within the Octave, lol I am almost kicking myself for not having figured this out already. If you are pretty good at the 1 - 12 half steps, then anything above sounds the same, and you can use the same methods/songs that you already know for the m9th all the way upto the 2octave range. I am testing myself out with Auralia, and Earmaster Pro, and I am mostly correct... but a little tip would be to write out all the intervals on a piece of paper then guess along until you have all the other steps memorised, Like this....

m2
M2
m3
M3
P4
Tri
P5
m6
M6
m7
M7
Octave

and then carry on up writing above the octave but in line so it will look like this

m2  -- m9
M2  -- M9
m3  -- m10
M3  -- M10
P4  --  P11
Tri  --  Dim12
P5  --  P12
m6  --  m13
M6  --  M13
m7  --  m14
M7  --  M14
Octave ---   2oct

Then I only tested myself on everything above the octave, and if something sounded like A Perfect 4th, I would just look on my list and see that it's a P11...... Then slowly test yourself using 2 full octaves which leaves 25 available answers which looks daunting at first, but really it's not! I'm so happy I finally got this down. Highly recommend anyone else here interested in working on their ear to try this out.

-===EDIT===- (I just thought that I would add that it's such a nice feeling to know that you only have to work on the first 12 half steps, and you automatically learn 24... or maybe even 36? and all of the intervals as far part as you can go! I havn't got any software that will go above the 2octave range, and I don't know of any songs which has a big jump in like that so I am almost certain there would be no point in working on anything higher, but it would be a nice thought to be able to hear something and say exactly what it is.)

Now I still don't know any easy sure fire method to get these intervals played together down. Still looking for advice on that, if anyone knows any tricks on here, please let me know, I will give anything a try.

Thank you,

James

[ajspiano]

I hadn't seen this, otherwise I would've written earlier. Its good to see someone with an interest in ear skills. "perfect_pitch" is the only other forum user I know of besides my self that posts much in this section of the forum and has an aural background. I'm sure others do, but i'm not aware of it.

There are a few people that haunt the improvisation board that surely would be of some use though.

...

On topic..

Your desire to learn all the intervals is admirable - however, I feel that its perhaps a little short sighted. Personally I think you would do better approaching it from a more tonal/diatonic perspective - rather than your present "chromatic, from the root" approach.

I also suspect that you are dealing with ascending intervals primarily, for example - you hear a C, then you hear an E directly above it, and you recognise it as a major 3rd..  this creates a problem (kind of) as far as recognising the descending intervals, especially perhaps the inversions... 

Such as that

E
C   sounds some-what similar to  C   
                                             E

Major 3rd/Minor 6th. Very similar quality.

Also, under your current approach - you will be presented with the fact that when beginning to decipher larger chords (lets say just 3 notes for now) - such as C E Bb - you will attempt to pick up on what the root is, then hear the Major third, and the minor 7th..  or the major 3rd and tri-tone. In reality, it is far more practical to recognise this as a "dominant 7th" chord. It has a very unique overall sound quality...

As do the other 3 possible basic chord qualities..
Root, minor 3rd, minor 7th
Root, major 3rd, major 7th
Root, minor 3rd, major 7th (only appears in minor scale harmony)

..also, musically speaking..  the major scale (and actual musical patterns created upon it will provide you with each interval..

C major - CDEFGABC
EF, BC - minor 2nds
CD, DE, FG, AB - major 2nds
DF, EG, AC, BD - minor 3rds
CE, FA, GB - major 3rds
etc. etc.
every possible interval is there.

At this stage, it is likely more musically applicable for you to be able to locate harmonies in relation to the underlying key, rather than just as absolute entities on their own.. You will find it easier to learn to recognise them if there is a stable key center.. such as..

C -- E                   C -- F A
C -- G   and then..  C -- G C
C -- B

Rather than..
C -- A
Eb - B
F -- Ab
Db - Bb

..the former will provide you with a stable base to work from, where as the latter will constantly throw off your sense of key or how the notes relate to your "root" - because every new interval has a new root. The former is more practical..  in some actual music you may have the following string of notes for a particular motif..

CDEDGFEDC

If you are using relative pitch, the whole pattern will be worked out based on each notes relationship to C (and as major scale tones), not each notes relationship to the previous note.

I apologise if I'm not making a lot of sense.. I doubt this post has been very useful, its quite late here and I must go to bed, perhaps I will write again tomorrow.

[perfect_pitch]

I hadn't seen this, otherwise I would've written earlier. Its good to see someone with an interest in ear skills. "perfect_pitch" is the only other forum user I know of besides my self that posts much in this section of the forum and has an aural background. I'm sure others do, but i'm not aware of it.

Unfortunately I wouldn't be of much help. How do I identify intervals? I really don't know - I was born with the ability. I do it as naturally as I can say my 2x tables.

I know there used to be a series of audio books called Relative Pitch and Perfect pitch with some guy who could troggle on for hours about how to develop it - never listened to it though, and unfortunately wouldn't have a clue on who presented it.

[ajspiano]

Unfortunately I wouldn't be of much help. How do I identify intervals? I really don't know - I was born with the ability. I do it as naturally as I can say my 2x tables.

I think that's partly what I was trying to get at in my ramble - not that you need to be born with it, but that it's not a "trick" with songs to remember it (though that may help initially). You have an innate understanding of the sound quality, and I rather think its developed through an ongoing exposure (and learning it by ear) to music, not identifying random intervals. (In saying that I don't mean to suggest that practice identifying intervals is pointless)

When you're ear is well developed you are able to identify whole series of notes and their harmonies (both ones that a sounded and ones that are their in theory) - and its not a case of consciously identifying each interval, its memorizing and reciting an entire musical phrase and its harmony. You hear the harmony and understand its fundamental constructs - not each individual interval. At least that's how it is for me - perfect_pitch may find it different since he perhaps uses perfect pitch rather than relative pitch.

.......

To elaborate a little more..  Scale tones are far more recognizable that isolated frequencies. Your (presumed on my part) lifelong exposure to western music makes you very familiar with that set of harmonies to begin with..

Now if you hear this..

C E F# B

then this..

A C G E

then this..

D C F#

...you're actually going to need to be able to think "IV - ii - V7 progression in G major" ... not ... "M3, tritone, M7, shift root, m3 m7 P5, shift root, m7 M3"

James, I'm not sure if you play the piano or not, but if you don't you should consider taking it up. The keyboard is very visual in terms of pitch (low sounds to the left, high to the right) comparitively to many other instruments, and you get to see harmonic constructs as you play notes together, and how they fit into scale theory etc.

.......

regarding the time signatures..

I'm not really sure what your program is like, but I would probably try to start by working with only DISTINCTLY different ones. So, don't try to pick between 2/4, 4/4, and 2/2 for example - because they are all pretty similar. Instead try to do say, 2/4 vs 6/8..   4/4 vs 3/4

If you could elaborate a little about which ones you tend to get right, and which ones you usually get wrong, I (or someone else) may be able to point out what characterizes the particular signature that you may be missing.

[ekso]

I get what you are saying ajspiano. I am self taught and I believe my ear is "bad" I have tried to work out songs in the past and have just gotten so frustrated and angry with myself, so I am trying to work on my ear more than my playing at the moment. Good thing about the ear training side of things is that I can work on my ear anytime of the day, I even lay up in bed awake running intervals through my head, drives me crazy when I listen to songs too and I am always analyzing subconsciously. But I am seeing some sort of improvement everyday.

I actually work on the intervals going Up and Down, A lot! I am pretty decent at it now, But only from a chromatic perspective, it's always an entirely different story if I play a song and try to play it by ear, If I use a program which can slow down the song, I can work out note for note with ease but if this is the wrong and stupid way about it, then by all means I want to know!

You sound like you are really advanced and good at aural, It's pretty much my dream at the moment to be able to listen to a song and play it back including the harmony, the backing chords, to know the progression, to know whether it's Mixolydian or Minor etc.etc.etc. If you don't mind I would like to ask you for help if I ever get stuck on something!

I actually don't play Piano, I would like to learn but I am pretty good with guitar, I can see the fretboard and all the notes within because I have been drilling scales like crazy for 5+ years. So I think I would be more comfortable with a guitar at the moment than over a piano or keyboard! I just don't have the money or room in my flat for the extra equipment at the moment, Need to buy a washing machine first, lol. (just moved)

I know what you mean about inversions, Like with a C and G being a P5, but inverted would be a P4... I know the intervals well enough at the moment to "Never" get mixed up between them, they both sound drastically different to my ears at the moment. Although for some reason, and I don't know why, I can hear a Perfect5th interval and confuse it with an Octave? Especially if I hear the Root to P12, to my ears I can only hear Some sort of Octave, I will hear the interval then "somewhere over the rainbow" song will play in my mind?

Your desire to learn all the intervals is admirable - however, I feel that its perhaps a little short sighted. Personally I think you would do better approaching it from a more tonal/diatonic perspective - rather than your present "chromatic, from the root" approach.

I will try to learn everything from a different perspective, I am glad that you didn't think that I wasted my time learning the intervals that I know already, I never thought of working from the root, when I try to work out a song by ear now, I will do it note for note, So I obtain a new root every note, and I lose my bearing very easily, and it takes forever to work out a simple line.

I recently downloaded some Relative Pitch training,
"Relative Pitch Ear Training by David Lucas Burge"
That may be what Perfect_Pitch was talking about, the course seems to take the ear training from a completely different angle, I will see how it works out, And then let you know how I get along with it.

Also, under your current approach - you will be presented with the fact that when beginning to decipher larger chords (lets say just 3 notes for now) - such as C E Bb - you will attempt to pick up on what the root is, then hear the Major third, and the minor 7th..  or the major 3rd and tri-tone. In reality, it is far more practical to recognise this as a "dominant 7th" chord. It has a very unique overall sound quality...

Wooah! Hearing chords is way beyond me at the moment, I doubt I will be attempting to work on those any time soon, I was working on the ascending/descening and harmonic intervals first. To be able to hear chords and progressions is my ultimate goal, I have no idea how long it will take me to train upto that level though but I'll keep working on my ear until I do!

Can you hear a chord, then pick out each individual note in your head? Or do you just feel the quality of the chord and say it's a Dominant7th?

At this stage, it is likely more musically applicable for you to be able to locate harmonies in relation to the underlying key, rather than just as absolute entities on their own.. You will find it easier to learn to recognise them if there is a stable key center..

This is where I get lost? I find it impossible to hear the key center, after I listen to a few notes in a song. Lets say A song is Cmajor, and the song Starts on a "C".

If a passage was to go C D F E C D G C.. I would hear the Major second between the first two notes, and then I would try to work out between the D and F but lose my center. So I wouldn't be able to hear from the C to F, I would literally find it impossible to work out everything from "C" because after hearing a few notes in between I wouldn't be able to hear the interval anymore in relation to C! I can only hear the interval between 2 consecutive notes! I don't know if I have a very bad ear, or if this is normal for most people?

To elaborate a little more..  Scale tones are far more recognizable that isolated frequencies. Your (presumed on my part) lifelong exposure to western music makes you very familiar with that set of harmonies to begin with..

Now if you hear this..

C E F# B

then this..

A C G E

then this..

D C F#

...you're actually going to need to be able to think "IV - ii - V7 progression in G major" ... not ... "M3, tritone, M7, shift root, m3 m7 P5, shift root, m7 M3"

Now this is what I want to do! This is what I am putting all the hard work into ear training for!
This level of aural seems so far away though.

---

Thank you, I didn't think you was rambling, (I am the one that is rambling tonight!) your post was actually very clear for me, and it cleared up a lot!, I think I just need to view ear training from a different angle. I am still kind of clueless in a sense though, but you really have helped me so much.

I'm interested in knowing a little bit about your ability in ear training though? Was you naturally good at it? or was you as useless as me at one time, and worked hard on it to be at the level you are now! Do you have any kind of regime that worked for you? I'm really getting into this stuff at the moment, it's almost become an obsession haha.

Thanks again for your time, I know you are busy so it means a lot, I'm glad I found this forum and signed up. Take care ajspiano, I have read around a lot, and I see that you have been really helpful to others too.

James

[ajspiano]

I'm interested in knowing a little bit about your ability in ear training though? Was you naturally good at it?

I studied piano under a "traditional" (what ever that means) teacher for more or less my whole childhood. The ear training was VERY limited and consisted only of minor preparations only a few weeks in advance of exam time, to fit the specific needs of the current AMEB grade. So I was able to do things like clap back a rhythm, or sing a melody, identify common intervals, major and minor triads etc.

As a teenager I got really sick of limited help in that and other areas though and branched away from classical music heavily, learning guitar (and derivatives) pretty much exclusively by ear. I spent A LOT of time learning rock/punk/metal riffs by ear, just gradually nutting them out note by note. It was a long drawn out process.. I would say that I was not naturally good at it - but at the same time, I could do it, where as most of my friends at the time couldn't (so who knows really). I learnt HUNDREDS of songs that way.

Later on (late teens) I returned more heavily to the piano and applied my ear skills alongside jazz theory type study.

Wooah! Hearing chords is way beyond me at the moment, I doubt I will be attempting to work on those any time soon, I was working on the ascending/descening and harmonic intervals first. To be able to hear chords and progressions is my ultimate goal, I have no idea how long it will take me to train upto that level though but I'll keep working on my ear until I do!

Can you hear a chord, then pick out each individual note in your head? Or do you just feel the quality of the chord and say it's a Dominant 7th?

I can do both, - if I want a perfect transcription then I will listen to every note.. however, that's also within the context of the latter idea. As a basis I hear the overall harmony, and that leads very quickly to finding the exact right notes because I know what they probably are thanks to ear skills related to scale and harmony theory.

What's going on in my head exactly is probably pretty difficult to explain well because as much as I can listen and tell you exactly what something is I can also fill in harmonic blanks. Such as I can usually anticipate where the harmony is going to go next without hearing it first (there are common patterns) which leads to being able to improvise whole accompaniments by ear having only heard a single note line/melody.. even simultaneously with hearing the melody for the first time. I can comfortable sit with a band and perform unrehearsed, songs I've never heard before in my life..  you know, within reason.. some types of music are more predictable than others.

This is where I get lost? I find it impossible to hear the key center, after I listen to a few notes in a song. Lets say A song is Cmajor, and the song Starts on a "C".

If a passage was to go C D F E C D G C.. I would hear the Major second between the first two notes, and then I would try to work out between the D and F but lose my center. So I wouldn't be able to hear from the C to F, I would literally find it impossible to work out everything from "C" because after hearing a few notes in between I wouldn't be able to hear the interval anymore in relation to C! I can only hear the interval between 2 consecutive notes! I don't know if I have a very bad ear, or if this is normal for most people?

I actually think that I use both methods - I operate from each individual note (if I'm working out a melody on its own) but that at all times there is a relationship between every note and the underlying key of the music.

You can play guitar right? so play the scales you slaved over.. but do it slowly, and sing every note before you play it...  also try listening to every scale tone in relation to the root, improvise something in this fashion and actively sing what you want to play and try to play it. Best place to start will be with a Drop "D" tuning, and just play open string against one other string..

As you get more comfortable (probably easier on a piano than guitar) you would perhaps familiarise your ear with the major scale, against each of the possible scale tones - this will help you recognise a key when the music isn't current using operating within the Ionian mode of the scale. There are key notes that define a chords quality, the 3rd and 7th..  then its additional notes, 2/4/6 will tell you the key and mode (or at least the likely key). This kind of thing has to be done in EVERY key, which may seem like a lot of work but you get a lot faster at it and it just becomes "playing" not practice.

as an example about certain notes defining the key...  I hear D F# A C# - first thing I recognise is the "major 7th" sound quality, so I know likely combinations of notes that make that quality.. Then I find the root of the chord "D" by hitting a random note and comparing..  now its not entirely random, because I have a partial absolute pitch, so I frequently guess right but it is still a trial and error approach in essence.. Once I have the "d" the "major 7th" quality tells me that the other notes must be F# and C# (A is perfect and irrelevant to the harmonic quality)..

Now, if I then hear within those notes a melody that has a G# (which would stick out pretty obviously, and which is the Lydian mode indicator) I know that the KEY is probably A major, and therefore I now know that subsequent chords are likely to be within these options A, Bm, C#m, D, E, F#m, G#o..     bla bla bla..   this all happens in my mind within a split second and without any concious thought, no doubt you will have to think about it a lot, and work at it. I've spent lots of time playing and improvising around chord progressions in all keys, so I'm very familiar with recognising scale tonality where you may not be.

[ekso]

I have started re-learning all my intervals and have started working on 2note chords. But in a different way. I am following David Burgess method and following along to a tape, but also learning everything about the interval, like the proper spelling, memorizing how many half steps away the distance is and also trying to sing the interval to properly lock it into my brain instead of using the "songs".

I really hope to get to your level one day. I didn't realise how bad my ear is, because even on the 2 note chords, I find it "VERY" difficult to sing out the 2 seperate notes. Some 2 note chords stick out like a sore thumb, especially Major 7ths, Minor 2nd, Octave. But the rest of them I need to put serious work in to!

I also heard it's actually really common to get Perfect 5ths and octaves, especially over the octave range mixed up... Sometimes they can sound identical to me, sometimes they dont... I know that the pitch is way wayyyy different, but the quality remains the same to me. I just hear "Somewhere Over the Rainbow". I'm glad it's not just me, apparantly it's very common and nobody knows why.

I have really tried to post back here sooner, I've been so busy at work. I have a day off today so I'm writing here to say thanks, and appreciate your last message. I am going to read through it slowly and see if I can use it to help me prioritize my learning. I don't think i am going to have much to say over the next couple weeks until I get to a much higher level, I had to pretty much start again learning what I already know, but I'm doing it all the proper way instead.

I'm really glad you came across this topic, I feel that you really hit the nail on the head for me and made all much clearer. I think you would make a great teacher!

Speak soon!

James

[Bob]

Sure, ask away. What's your question?

If you use songs to help to identify intervals, that's also getting the color of that interval on that position of the scale. For example, if you use the m7 from West Side Story, "There's a Place for Us," you'll get an m7 on Sol-fa.  You're capturing the dominant seventh chord along with that interval, maybe hearing sol-fa.  That would sound different than Do-te or another interval. I think so anyway.


Oops.  I thought this was a new thread.  Either way....

[nystul]

I also heard it's actually really common to get Perfect 5ths and octaves, especially over the octave range mixed up... Sometimes they can sound identical to me, sometimes they dont... I know that the pitch is way wayyyy different, but the quality remains the same to me. I just hear "Somewhere Over the Rainbow". I'm glad it's not just me, apparantly it's very common and nobody knows why.

I don't think it is a huge mystery.  Octave and perfect fifth are the most consonant intervals.  The octave resonates with the second harmonic of the bass note.  The fifth plus octave with the third harmonic.  So someone can hear that "pure" sound and think it is octave but maybe it is actually the fifth which is the next closest thing.  By comparison, even though a tritone is right next to the fifth pitch wise, the tritone beats like crazy and the fifth is almost pure so they sound completely different in quality.