Uprights

[perprocrastinate]

Can a good upright come close to the quality of a grand?

[ajspiano]

Can a good upright come close to the quality of a grand?

This is hardly my field..

However, i believe the mechanism in a grand is superior to that of an upright, and the string length will practically always be longer.. so if your pianos are in a bubble, meaning that all other factors are equal then the grand will always be better.

..ofcourse, if you're grand was made and put together by joe bloggs, who's prior craft experience is the 1 desk he built in highschool woodwork..  and the upright was made by steinway..  things might be different..

I've certainly played some horrible grands, and plenty of really nice uprights.

[iansinclair]

Not my field, either.  However, as it happens I have both a Steinway grand (A) and a Steinway upright (about 54" tall -- not sure of model number), both made about the same time (1898 and 1902, respectively).  The action of the upright is not as responsive as that of the grand, but it comes remarkably close and the weights are very similar.  Tonally, the grand is superior -- no surprise there -- but again the upright isn't far behind.

But... first, that is a big upright, and as ajspiano notes string length, string scaling, and sounding board size and mounting etc. are going to make a big difference.  Second, the action of the upright is more complex -- and heavier -- than the grand.  And that will make a difference.

All that said, there are really two groups of variables: sheer size (bigger/taller really is usually better!) and action.  Most uprights just don't have the size to compete with a grand in tone quality, even with a small grand.  And curiously the action of an upright would have to be of a significantly higher quality to even come close to a grand.

All of which is a long way of saying "well now, it depends..."

[hfmadopter]

I once played a console upright that was rather charming in it's room, a perfect fit where a grand wouldn't fit anyway under the circumstances. I generally don't even like the brand but it was regulated and voiced rather nice. It was a Wurlitzer, which belonged to a now deceased friend of mine whoes daughter was studying piano on at the time. And it sat in their dining room, so to get a grand in, the dining room table would have to go ( that wouldn't be a problem to me if it were my house incidentally !).

I've played grands that have light action and ones that have heavy action but it's almost always a case of more accurate action than that of an upright unless there is a regulation problem. We have to assume that there will be a certain level of condition in the comparison of course, as well as class and control of brand etc. Also grands tend to have control of filling their space with sound by lid lifting height for one thing and proper sizing as well. However, IMO, once you drop below about 5 Ft. with a grand some folks might want to consider other options at that point. I personally miss the point in terms of sound of sub 5 ft. grands when you can get the same size or possibly larger uprights in less space. You do still gain the obvious style and possible action gain.. They have their place but I wouldn't care to own one ( either one, the small grand or the large upright unless it just had to be that way).

My teachers Steinway I believe was 5'2" or there abouts and it sounded fine in her studio room which was carpeted. The action was on the heavy side compared with my own grand.. I played on a really nice Chickering in a club that was in between. The church down the road has a Baldwin grand that is in between as well, it's about a 7 ft grand. All more accurate than most uprights I've played. It's hard to describe, it's just a more direct feeling or connected feeling and often repetition is better on a grand, which makes sense since there is a direct rebound of the hammers with the grand action as well..

[richard black]

Short answer - yes. If you play a really good upright from, for instance, Steingraeber (probably the best), Bechstein or Bösendorfer, you will quickly appreciate that they are in most ways much preferable to very many grand pianos - small and/or cheap grand pianos of any period. Better resonance across the board, more interesting tonal palette, more responsive action. No upright will substitute for a really good grand, but give me my Ibach upright rather than many of the grands I've played.

[iansinclair]

Short answer - yes. If you play a really good upright from, for instance, Steingraeber (probably the best), Bechstein or Bösendorfer, you will quickly appreciate that they are in most ways much preferable to very many grand pianos - small and/or cheap grand pianos of any period. Better resonance across the board, more interesting tonal palette, more responsive action. No upright will substitute for a really good grand, but give me my Ibach upright rather than many of the grands I've played.

Indeed.  Which is why I said at the end of my earlier post, "well now, it depends...".  I would certainly agree that a top end upright -- particularly the taller ones (we're not talking "spinets" here folks) -- will beat an awful lot of medium or worse quality grands, any day of the week, both in terms of sound quality and in terms of feel.

In my case, the upright is in a smallish room and sounds fine; the grand is in a very good size room -- and also sounds fine (well, better than fine!).  It is hard to describe the difference in the feel of the action, but the grand is undeniably "nicer" (or let's say, more to my taste).  No surprise.  The biggest difference really is that the grand's repetition is crisper and faster; I can beat the upright (sometimes) on very fast repeated notes, but there's no way I can beat the grand.  I also feel I have more dynamic control on the grand.  Very very subjective.  I might note that both of these pianos have the original actions; regulated and voiced, but no rebuilds or anything like that.

Are you confused yet?

[indianajo]

One of the piano information sites limits the term "upright" to pre 1941 pianos about 6 feet tall.  These have a more tinkly tone than post 1941 console or studio pianos,  which has been out of fashion for a long time except for ragtime and jazz music. 
Console pianos (39-40" tall) and studio pianos (44" tall) can be quite competent or junk.  I don't find regulation worse on the better consoles and studios I have played.  The touch is certainly much lighter than the grands I have played, which is important to me as my wrists and forearms are much lighter than the average person.  Of course, some console and most spinets particularly, are quite awful.  I helped saw up a Winter spinet and fit it into the garbage can, once, good riddance.  By contrast I've been quite impressed by certain Sohmers, Baldwins, a Wurlitzer, a Mason & Hamlin, and of course the 1941 Steinway console I own now. 
Some consoles are designed to project the music more at the player than at the wall, which is useful in most home circumstances.  Grands are designed to project the music away towards the side in a larger room. 
I've played only Baldwin and Sohmer grands, which were okay but heavy, and some forgotten store brand in a church somewhere that was quite awful.  For some reason grands are bottoming out in my market on craiglist at about $2000, while consoles go down to $100 even for very competent brands. 

[hfmadopter]

 
I've played only Baldwin and Sohmer grands, which were okay but heavy, and some forgotten store brand in a church somewhere that was quite awful.  For some reason grands are bottoming out in my market on craigslist at about $2000, while consoles go down to $100 even for very competent brands. 

I think you will find except for a niche group of us crazy people, similar to how film cameras lost ground and taken over by digital, so it goes with pianos in the average house. These days reasonable cost for brand new, reasonable action in a decent digital and reasonable sound especially when run through software, compact, put it anywhere mind set has won over the average market. On the flip side, a piano today is more taken for granted and doesn't dominate the living room as a masterpiece piece of furniture, again in the average home where maybe a kid is taking lessons, for instance.

And on stage the acoustic is all but dead where digital just readily hooks into the house sound system or amps and portable sound systems are used.

Just my thought on the matter. I watched it happen with cameras, I owned nice medium format gear, worked my whole life to own nice medium format gear and turned it all over to digital in less than five years time. today you go into a camera store and won't even see a medium format camera on display. It was the gold standard to own not so long ago.

[iansinclair]

I think you will find except for a niche group of us crazy people, similar to how film cameras lost ground and taken over by digital, so it goes with pianos in the average house. These days reasonable cost for brand new, reasonable action in a decent digital and reasonable sound especially when run through software, compact, put it anywhere mind set has won over the average market. On the flip side, a piano today is more taken for granted and doesn't dominate the living room as a masterpiece piece of furniture, again in the average home where maybe a kid is taking lessons, for instance.

And on stage the acoustic is all but dead where digital just readily hooks into the house sound system or amps and portable sound systems are used.

Just my thought on the matter. I watched it happen with cameras, I owned nice medium format gear, worked my whole life to own nice medium format gear and turned it all over to digital in less than five years time. today you go into a camera store and won't even see a medium format camera on display. It was the gold standard to own not so long ago.

You're right, of course... but...

sigh.........