Picking a Piano Concerto

[scherzo123]

Hi...I really want to do a piano concerto, and I'm not sure which want to start with. Here are the one's I've heard of AND like (I know that some of them are WAY TOO HARD FOR ME):

Beethoven Piano Concerto No.5
Chopin Piano Concerto No.2
Liszt Piano Concerto No.1
Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto No.2
Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto No.3

I like Mozart's 19, 21, and 23 as well, but I'm not in the mood for doing a Mozart piano concerto. I know that there are piano concerti by other composers as well, like Brahms and Tchaikovsky, but I haven't heard them yet. Can you guys give me suggestions on which piano concerto to start first?
My repertoire so far is:

Bach Prelude and Fugue BWV847
Mozart Piano Sonata No.6 (1st mvt.)
Mozart Piano Sonata No.10 (1st mvt.)
Mozart Piano Sonata No.11 (3rd mvt.)
Chopin "Revolutionary" Etude Op.10 No.12
Chopin Fantasie-Impromptu Op.66
Liszt Liebestraum No.3

My signature says what I'm working on. Any suggestions would be appreciated, thanks!

[j_menz]

All the ones you've picked are up there in terms of difficulty.

The Beethoven 1st is a good starter if you don't want to do Mozart.  Are you planning to ever perform it, and if so Piano II or Orchestra?

[chewbacha]

The concertos that you like are all definitely WAY TOO HARD for you. I don't really think that it's a good idea to start working on concertos at your current level but then again, there are always some options. A concerto that I would definitely recommend you to listen to and consider is Kabalevsky's 3rd Piano Concerto. It's a wonderful piece of music that fits really well under the fingers and a piece that he wrote for young students starting their first concertos.

[the_technicalman]

Well Rach 3 is a little adventurous, but why not! You've got to start somewhere!

However, I would recommend mozart for your first concerto. Theres nothing better to attune the year to the orchestra- understand the balance and tug of war of tempo between the orchestra, and nothing more perfect to initiate you into playing WITH an orchestra, rather than AGAINST. For example, I started with Prokofiev 3. What a disaster.

However, if the orchestra is poor, I would forget about Mozart.

Out of your list, I would choose Liszt 1. There are no better piano concertos at projecting the piano over its orchestration then those of Liszt. He was a master of balance and texture.

[49410enrique]

The concertos that you like are all definitely WAY TOO HARD for you. I don't really think that it's a good idea to start working on concertos at your current level but then again, there are always some options. A concerto that I would definitely recommend you to listen to and consider is Kabalevsky's 3rd Piano Concerto. It's a wonderful piece of music that fits really well under the fingers and a piece that he wrote for young students starting their first concertos.

could not agree more.  i absolutely love the kabalevsky no. 3, it is by far one of my most favorite of favorites (beating many of the 'standard' romantic 'harder' ones). the music is just that good.  i don't even think  of it as just  a 'student's' concerto or a 'starter concerto' it is just  a good work. period.

also along the lines of other works to consider are the Rakov Piano Concerto's No 1-4, no. 1 and 2 below:

also consider:
mathew edwards concerto for young pianists.
 or
https://www.amazon.com/Concerto-Young-Pianists-Composer-Intermediate/dp/0634051962/ref=sr_1_sc_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1338850782&sr=8-2-spell

also you should look over the attached pdf list of concertos that are 'suitable' for younger and less experienced players.

the final advice i should give you are to evaluate why you are choosing to learn a concerto. if you will only play it with piano II and are mainly looking for an 'ensemble' learning experience, you might want to explore more 'duets' that are specifically composed with two pianos in mind, musicailly you might find them more fulfilling. also works for solo instrument and piano (specifically solo and piano like sonatas,).

you should also be spending a considerable amount of time navigating extended works in sonata form, i.e. piano sonatas. if you have not yet played a difficult piano sonata for solo to a respectable level and all in a single performance, i think you'll be left a little disapointed in your end result when you add those difficulties to the mix of having to know and understand a second score/set of parts as in a concerto/piano ii reduction.

good luck, think it through, let us know what you decide. hope this all helps.

[scherzo123]

I've decided to do only movements. New list:

Beethoven Piano Concerto (2nd mvt.)
Chopin Piano Concerto No.1 (1st mvt.)
Chopin Piano Concerto No.2 (2nd and 3rd mvts.)
Liszt Piano Concerto No.1 (any mvt.)
Prokofiev Piano Concerto No.3 (3rd mvt.)

I'm listening to the Kabalevsky No.3 right now. It's really cool. Then I might listen to concertos written by other composers: more Beethoven, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Ravel, and Scriabin.

[49410enrique]

I've decided to do only movements. New list:

Beethoven Piano Concerto (2nd mvt.)
Chopin Piano Concerto No.1 (1st mvt.)
Chopin Piano Concerto No.2 (2nd and 3rd mvts.)
Liszt Piano Concerto No.1 (any mvt.)
Prokofiev Piano Concerto No.3 (3rd mvt.)

I'm listening to the Kabalevsky No.3 right now. It's really cool. Then I might listen to concertos written by other composers: more Beethoven, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Ravel, and Scriabin.

i would strongly reccommend the entire kabalevsky no 3 (i.e. allmovements) over any the single movements above. if you are looking for a 'single' movement work perhaps  a rhapsody?

of since you like a romantic sound and rachmaninoff, the warsaw concerto (which is more of a rhapsody than a true concerto) was my first piano solo plus ensemble work when me and my piano professor finally decided i was ready and needed to spend sometime with a 'concerto' like piece.  it has it's challenges but it's length (or rather lack there off) might make it manageable. people like to 'talk down' to it like it is some 2nd rate rachmaninoff wannabe, who cares what they want to call it. it has lovely moments, was thoroughly fulfilling to learn and perform and audiences consistently enjoy it.

[scherzo123]

My teacher did mention the Chopin 2nd (2nd mvt.) and the Warsaw Concerto...I'll think about it. Right now I'm narrowing down to:

Beethoven Piano Concerto No.5 (2nd mvt.)
Chopin Piano Concerto No.2 (2nd mvt.)
Liszt Piano Concerto No.1 (1st or 4th mvt.)
Kabalevsky Piano Concerto No.3 (any-I'll think about if I should do the whole thing)

I'll listen to the Warsaw Concerto. Also, is Gerhswin's Rhapsody in Blue any good?

[49410enrique]

the gershwin rhapsody in blue is a great piece. but also incredibly difficult. yeah big time.

the 2nd rhapsody is very much ignored and i think it is actually much more interesting, probably better than the famous 'blue'. i have not looked at that score in ages but i would be shocked if it is not as hard as the first, heck maybe harder.

really, i applaud your enthusiasm, but i would most definately avoid the 'big standards' the first time (perhaps 2nd too) around.

i only menitoned the warsaw becuase you seem to like that sound so much, but be warned i would not put it in the 'easy' category, definately not the hardest work out there but  if i mainly mentioned it becuase of it's relatively short length, it's pretty easy to memorize (if you memorize pices well generally, if not, forget that statement). if you do not have a solid technical base it could be problematic for you (ie you can already handle  very fast argpegios , i mean really fast, all up and down the keybaord, really good voicing, control, etc).

[scherzo123]

My right hand is really good with turning the thumb over now, but I can only do arpeggios in a moderate speed . BTW, the piano concertos are WAY harder than La Campanella, right?

[49410enrique]

i would probably hold off on the warsaw concerto then. i have not ever played / performed any liszt so i could not speak to the la campanella. i do like some liszt pieces but mainly his late works which are not especially popular of 'flashy' with the exception of Les jeux d'eau à la Villa d'Este, love the imageryb that piece creates but it's a different kind of 'flashy' not as much in your face, it has a distinct role in creating an 'amosphere'....

i digress.

hmm most of my 'favorites' w the exceptin of the kabalevsky are the very difficult end of 'hard'.  

do you have your heart set on playing the concerto as it is written for the 'ensemble' experience? if its just the themes you like, there are some very nice shorter and well done arrangements of some fo the concertos. namely the percy grainger arrangemetns of the grieg, schumann, tchaikovsky, and rachmaninoff no2 (which i just bought and am considering learning for the spring).

those are not simplified 'watered' down and present many similar challenges but they take out the 'ensemble' and let you enjoy the music as a concert solo piece. that might be an option too if you were just wanting to them beucase you like the music vs doing a 'concerto' for playing the work as a pino + accompanyment (piano/orchestra) work.

[scherzo123]

Thanks, but I don't like simplified...

If I should hold on a bit on the piano concerti, should I start with chamber music instead?

[49410enrique]

If I should hold on a bit on the piano concerti, should I start with chamber music instead?

honestly were i in your situation id start w kabalevsky no three or if you have the opportunity to learn a chamber work like a trio or quartet or even just a violin or cello and piano sonata (that is you ahve access to musicians/students that you can perform it with), it would really help you get ready, especially if you have never played as ensemble, or like i said even a two piano concert work would be cool two.  there are very nice piano sonatas for two pianos i.e poulenc, stravinsky, mozart, etc.

 if you want an more 'modern  sound' no 4 gets ignored a LOT and is super cool, short, it was composed for a piano competition in russia, a young hot shot 15 year old kid named vladimir ashkenazy premiered it (you might have heard of him...i think he did the premiere, let me fact check on that).

i absolutely love this 2nd movement!

this Kabalevsky is also appropriate for a 'starter' it was not composed as a pedadogy work per say but bears many similar elements to no 3 and i like it very much, has  a 'theme and variations' type approach

this modern work is very 'neoclassical' in nature, and would also be a suitable/pretty good first concerto

[scherzo123]

Yes, I love Ashkenazy! Thanks for those suggestions and all the help. As for chamber music, would Brahms Piano Quartet Op.60 help? (more specifically the 3rd mvt.)

[49410enrique]

Yes, I love Ashkenazy! Thanks for those suggestions and all the help. As for chamber music, would Brahms Piano Quartet Op.60 help? (more specifically the 3rd mvt.)

im not familiar with it i can give it a listen and look at the score and let you know how it strikes me tomorrow (between getting ready for my piano lesson i usually practice all day right up to the lesson).

generally Brahms is very difficult in chamber and non piano sonata works. i.e. the cello sonata for cello and piano, OMG super hard. the piano quintet in f minor!? supremely difficult,  again i'd just have to look and listen, but yes a chamber work single movement ifyou can navigate thepiano part well, would be a very good place to start so im inclined to vote yes based on the smaller nature of the work and it should still be challenging so all in all a really good starter/learning opportunity.

[scherzo123]

im not familiar with it i can give it a listen and look at the score and let you know how it strikes me tomorrow (between getting ready for my piano lesson i usually practice all day right up to the lesson).

generally Brahms is very difficult in chamber and non piano sonata works. i.e. the cello sonata for cello and piano, OMG super hard. the piano quintet in f minor!? supremely difficult,  again i'd just have to look and listen, but yes a chamber work single movement ifyou can navigate thepiano part well, would be a very good place to start so im inclined to vote yes based on the smaller nature of the work and it should still be challenging so all in all a really good starter/learning opportunity.

Thanks, you're the best! 

[49410enrique]

Thanks, you're the best! 

thanks. i'm probably just remarkably average on my best day.

oh btw, i was able to upload the percy grainger rachmaninoff transcription i told you i might start work on in December. 

such a cool solo piece, not as great as the original but still a cool concert solo.

i used sound  cloud so that way it's 'playable' as a demo
https://soundcloud.com/scriabinoff/grainger-rachmaninov-piano

[richard black]

Hang on a minute - just looking at the first post in this thread... You want to learn a concerto and you HAVEN'T HEARD the concertos by Brahms and Tchaikovsky? Then you aren't ready to play a concerto. Any concerto, even the little kiddie ones written for school kids to play. Once you have actually heard some music (including - especially - non-piano music), in a year or two, consider the Haydn concertos or some of the early Mozart ones. Maybe Beethoven 2 or at a push 1. If you work very hard and diligently you might be ready for Chopin, Liszt, later Beethoven etc. etc. after 5 years.

[gaidheal]

For shorter concerto-type music, I heartily recommend Ernst von Dohnanyi's Variations on a Nursery Rhyme, which has a total playing time of around 22 minutes. It's challenging, but also pokes fun at some of his contemporaries: for example, in the fugue (the last variation), the piano and orchestra start by disagreeing on which key to play in!

I'm struggling to find any recordings of Macmillan's piano concerti, although having used my university's account, I've found a recording of the No. 2 on the Naxos website. I'm trying to pick a concerto to learn (a full one, this time), and am considering a British composer - Cyril Scott, Herbert Howells, Macmillan (especially since I'm from Edinburgh) or others. I'm very taken by the second movement of Ireland's piano concerto, although unsure about the first.

[49410enrique]

For shorter concerto-type music, I heartily recommend Ernst von Dohnanyi's Variations on a Nursery Rhyme, which has a total playing time of around 22 minutes. It's challenging, but also pokes fun at some of his contemporaries: for example, in the fugue (the last variation), the piano and orchestra start by disagreeing on which key to play in!

I'm struggling to find any recordings of Macmillan's piano concerti, although having used my university's account, I've found a recording of the No. 2 on the Naxos website. I'm trying to pick a concerto to learn (a full one, this time), and am considering a British composer - Cyril Scott, Herbert Howells, Macmillan (especially since I'm from Edinburgh) or others. I'm very taken by the second movement of Ireland's piano concerto, although unsure about the first.

Hmm have look and listen to york Bowen piano concertos no 1 2 and ESP 4 no three is very short a single moving fantasia.

Here some remarks about no 4 from a cd review
The Concerto No. 4 was conceived on a much bigger canvas. Sorabji, rather exaggeratedly, claimed that it was the greatest work for piano and orchestra ever written by an Englishman. I am none too sure about that considering concertos by Bax, Britten, Ireland and Parry to mention but a few.  However this Bowen work certainly has its moments. Take the mysterious atmospheric opening of the first movement for example Emphatic staccato piano chords over a mysterious slow marching ostinato for timps, bass drum and pianissimo lower strings. This opening preludes a sophisticated large-scale Romantic virtuoso work. The melodies - yearning and soaring - are luscious; arpeggios and runs complex and decorative. Influences are varied. I hear John Ireland and Debussy and Ravel (try the cadenza around 10:00), for instance. The central movement, after dejected downward strings and horn-calls, opens with a quirky, cheeky piano theme  interrupted by bass piano stabbings. The romantic main theme, of regret and remembrance, is sung first by cor anglais then solo viola before the piano takes it up. This material is developed as the music meanders through a variety of moods, mostly veiled and dreamy and a diversity of instruments and keys. Again there is a substantial cadenza leading to an exquisite coda with sublime music for solo violin and cello - the latter’s passage carries the imprint of Vaughan Williams. Perfumed French Impressionism is in evidence in the cadenza and is never far distant throughout this movement. The finale begins most emphatically – noble heroic stuff, trumpets blazing. Again Ravel comes to mind with proudly assertive Spanish-style rhythms recalling the Concerto for the Left Hand. Wistful, playful - Saint-Saëns’ concertos come to mind - and squally material contrasts. Influences of Rachmaninov, Bax and Ireland might be perceived, peppered as notes-writer Glen Ballard suggests, with hints of Richard Strauss and Stravinsky.

Read more: https://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2008/dec08/bowen_driver_cda67659.htm#ixzz29mrTeI3m

[scherzo123]

Hang on a minute - just looking at the first post in this thread... You want to learn a concerto and you HAVEN'T HEARD the concertos by Brahms and Tchaikovsky? Then you aren't ready to play a concerto. Any concerto, even the little kiddie ones written for school kids to play. Once you have actually heard some music (including - especially - non-piano music), in a year or two, consider the Haydn concertos or some of the early Mozart ones. Maybe Beethoven 2 or at a push 1. If you work very hard and diligently you might be ready for Chopin, Liszt, later Beethoven etc. etc. after 5 years.

Just because i never heard the Brahms and Tchaikovsky doesn't mean that I can't play a piano concerto. How silly of you.

[chewbacha]

All in all I firmly believe that you should talk to your teacher regarding a concerto choice. Don't bother asking random people off the internet, your teacher is by far more experienced when it comes to your level.

[scherzo123]

All in all I firmly believe that you should talk to your teacher regarding a concerto choice. Don't bother asking random people off the internet, your teacher is by far more experienced when it comes to your level.

Okay.

[blazekenny]

Well I am pretty sure I knew the Tchaikovsky concerto before I was born - I mean what, its about in every TV advertisment and they play it on every concerts you go to.
Concertos are generally for very mature pianists with a very solid stage confidency, technique and musical idea. To start I would recommend some of the earlier Mozart´s concertos, probably 5th and 7th being the more famous choices.
---
by the way I lol´d at the Liszt concerto. One does not simply play one movement from an attacca piece

[scherzo123]

Well I am pretty sure I knew the Tchaikovsky concerto before I was born - I mean what, its about in every TV advertisment and they play it on every concerts you go to.
Concertos are generally for very mature pianists with a very solid stage confidency, technique and musical idea. To start I would recommend some of the earlier Mozart´s concertos, probably 5th and 7th being the more famous choices.

Thanks.

by the way I lol´d at the Lisztjavascript:void(0); concerto. One does not simply play one movement from an attacca piece

Oh yeah, I forgot 

[thalbergmad]

Sorabji, rather exaggeratedly, claimed that it was the greatest work for piano and orchestra ever written by an Englishman. 

Undoubtedly one of the most sensible things he wrote, albeit he made that judgement one assumes without hearing the Sherwood.

Thal

[ahinton]

Undoubtedly one of the most sensible things he wrote

As a matter of fact he said pretty much the same thing about the piano concerto by Alan Bush; that said, Bush's concerto and the four by Bowen were all undoubtedly unjustly unsung heroes of the British piano concerto repertoire and, although they've all had some outings since those far-off days, they still remain unjustly neglected.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

As a matter of fact he said pretty much the same thing about the piano concerto by Alan Bush;

A shame he did not feel the same way about the Stanford 2nd. Also amongst the greatest of British PC's.

Thal

[ahinton]

A shame he did not feel the same way about the Stanford 2nd. Also amongst the greatest of British PC's.

I wouldn't insult you or anyone else by telling you what Sorabji felt in general terms about Stanford; I will, however, tell you - for what it may or may not be worth - that a musician whom I know (no names, no pack-drill) once told me that he named his son Stanford because he didn't want him to become a musician...

Best,

Alistair

[deighve]

Ed Grieg's Piano Concerto in A minor will be the best for you to master and play. You will personally enjoy it.

[scherzo123]

Thanks