Question for teachers on a statement in Hofmann's book

[ted]

Hofmann answers as follows:

"I do indeed, unless it is done merely for a frolic; though even such a mood might vent itself in better taste. The touch with vulgarity can never be but hurtful, whatever form vulgarity may assume - whether it be literature, a person or a piece of music. Why share the musical food of those who are, by breeding or circumstance, debarred from anything better ? The vulgar impulse which generated ragtime cannot arouse a noble impulse in response any more than 'dime novels' can awaken the instincts of gentlemanliness or ladyship. If we watch the street-sweeper we are liable to get dusty. but remember that the dust on the mind and soul is not so easily removed as the dust on our clothes."

I am curious what the teachers among us think.

[j_menz]

I don't think one needs be a teacher to recognise Hoffman as the worst sort of musical snob.

[ajspiano]

is he implying that that listening to ragtime will destroy your ability to play a fugue?

Who knows what punk-rock has done to me....

[outin]

Who knows what punk-rock has done to me....

You did that too? Aren't you a bit younger? 

[ajspiano]

You did that too? Aren't you a bit younger? 

too young for punk-ruck you mean? probably. My friends and I were listening to the clash, sex pistols, the ramones etc. when most of our age group were listening to, well..  i have no idea really.. flavor of the month nineties/noughties bands I guess.

I think its ok though, I wasn't yet born when fugues were the "shiz" either.

[j_menz]

I think its ok though, I wasn't yet born when fugues were the "shiz" either.

Fugues are always "the shiz" if you move in the right circles. 

Of course, in those circles, saying things like "the shiz" most certainly isn't. 

[ajspiano]

Of course, in those circles, saying things like "the shiz" most certainly isn't. 

Indeed, hofmann probably wouldn't hang out with me..

[outin]

too young for punk-ruck you mean? probably. My friends and I were listening to the clash, sex pistols, the ramones etc. when most of our age group were listening to, well.. 

Classics are always classics 

Of course I wasn't quite there in the first wave either, more like early 80's. I guess listing the bands I listened to those days would make me loose any little credibility I might have in the "fugue circles" 

[ajspiano]

I guess listing the bands I listened to those days would make me loose any little credibility I might have in the "fugue circles" 

I prefer to think that if a "fugue circle" took issue with my listening habits they would lose credibility with me.

[outin]

I prefer to think that if a "fugue circle" took issue with my listening habits they would lose credibility with me.

That's because you actually CAN play a fugue, I might be one to prove Mr. Hofmann right 

[ajspiano]

That's because you actually CAN play a fugue, I might be one to prove Mr. Hofmann right 

fugue
Noun:   
A contrapuntal composition in which a short melody or phrase (the subject) is introduced by one part and successively taken up by others...


CDEFG..D.....CBD..D..EE
       GABCD..A.....B..  G
              DEFGA..G..  C

..or something.. I'm sure you can manage my terrible, and terribly notated, fugue.

(once again, I don't think hofmann will hang out with me.. j_menz may not either.)

[outin]

fugue
Noun:   
A contrapuntal composition in which a short melody or phrase (the subject) is introduced by one part and successively taken up by others...


CDEFG..D.....CBD..D..EE
       GABCD..A.....B..  G
              DEFGA..G..  C

..or something.. I'm sure you can manage my terrible, and terribly notated, fugue.

Is this a challenge?

[ajspiano]

Is this a challenge?

hahah well it can be if you so desire..  considering the lack of thought I put into its construction you may find it rather unsatisfying though.

[j_menz]

fugue
Noun:   
A contrapuntal composition in which a short melody or phrase (the subject) is introduced by one part and successively taken up by others...


CDEFG..D.....CBD..D..EE
       GABCD..A.....B..  G
              DEFGA..G..  C

..or something.. I'm sure you can manage my terrible, and terribly notated, fugue.

(once again, I don't think hofmann will hang out with me.. j_menz may not either.)

I'm not sure your subject is "fugable", but at least you got the entries right (if a little early).

I'm less fussy than Hoffman; I'll hang out with you if you're shouting.  

[ajspiano]

I'm not sure your subject is "fugable", but at least you got the entries right (if a little early).

I was angling for short and really simple...  and to be honest, - not really a fugue

Here outin..  I changed one note..


J_menz,  I'll shout if you provide 5 legitimate reasons for why its not a real fugue.

[j_menz]

J_menz,  I'll shout if you provide 5 legitimate reasons for why its not a real fugue.

You'll have to wait a bit for that I'm afraid. My corporate IT policy seems to think the picture is going to either be to dangerous or too distracting for me to see.

[outin]

I was angling for short and really simple...  and to be honest, - not really a fugue

Here outin..  I changed one note..


J_menz,  I'll shout if you provide 5 legitimate reasons for why its not a real fugue.

Have to go to work, but I promise to learn it this weekend even if it kills me!

Should I make a recording to the audition room...?

[ajspiano]

Have to go to work, but I promise to learn it this weekend even if it kills me!

Should I make a recording to the audition room...?

hahah sure..

Hell, I'd consider writing 48 preludes and fugues for you at this rate. It can be called the Well Traumatised Clavier.

..If you do post perhaps make it in this thread, or maybe add a link to this thread in the audition room.

J_menz, excuses excuses..
https://sadpanda.us/images/1226997-F979JWY.jpg - if that helps at all (probably not..)

[outin]

Hell, I'd consider writing 48 preludes and fugues for you at this rate. It can be called the Well Traumatised Clavier.

 

Anyway, you will forever be the creator of my first fugue 

[j_menz]

the Well Traumatised Clavier.

I suspect there are a few around.

(probably not..)

Indeed; the corporate gods are not so easily fooled.  

[j_menz]

Anyway, you will forever be the creator of my first fugue 

Unless I'm owed a martini. 

[outin]

Unless I'm owed a martini. 

Wasn't I talking to you? 

[j_menz]

Wasn't I talking to you? 

Gahhh!!!! 

No.


** wonders what they're putting in the water now...

[ajspiano]

Unless I'm owed a martini. 

3rd time lucky? - attached it.

[outin]

Any advice on fingering? 

BTW. Thanks for not putting in any sharps or flats 

[ajspiano]

Any advice on fingering? 

.. umm..

first thought..

RH - 12345232453
                1

LH  - 54321432121
              5      45
^the way they are written there they don't line up properly in time of course.... its just linear.

..that takes a note from the middle voice in the RH, you could do it in the LH fine though..   

bare in mind I haven't played it.. except on a desk.

[j_menz]

3rd time lucky? - attached it.

Got it.

Why it is not a fugue:

1) It lacks a recapitulation section.

2) The 2nd voice enter before the completion of the first and is unneccesarily altered.

3) Ditto the third with respect to the 2nd

4) There is no development of the third voice (and precious little of the other two)

5) The First F (in the bass) shoud be sharp.

6) It would be more correct for the 3rd subject to enter on the tonic (and to restate the subject exactly).

7) The free counterpoint of the 1st voice should be in invertable counterpoint, and should be at the octave or the 15th.

EDIT: 8 ) [Damn emoticon thingies!!] One note is not sufficient to constitute a countersubject to voice 2 (or to be free counterpoint, or to tell which was intended)

Basically, it's not possible to write a 3 voice fugue in three bars.

I'm thirsty.  

[outin]

** wonders what they're putting in the water now...

R-4?

[j_menz]

R-4?

I think I'd have noticed...



[Sikorsky R-4]

[ajspiano]

Got it.

Why it is not a fugue:

bla bla fugue snob bla

Probably fair on all counts. I guess let me know if you're ever in melbourne...

I still think it (roughly) holds for the raw definition though - https://www.thefreedictionary.com/fugue

See if you can do better in 3 bars.

[j_menz]

See if you can do better in 3 bars.

Basically, it's not possible to write a 3 voice fugue in three bars.

I can't. 

Fugue snob indeed.    LOL

[ajspiano]

I can't. 

I would've given you credit if you'd broken less rules, and come up with it in under 20 seconds.

5) The First F (in the bass) shoud be sharp.

I actually considered that.. but then I thought "it doesnt matter, you cant create a real fugue in 3 bars"

2) The 2nd voice enter before the completion of the first and is unneccesarily altered.

was going to fix that one too, but i thought the same thing as for point 5..

[outin]

You two are confusing me! Am I supposed to learn it or not? If it's NOT a fugue, then does it have enough musical value to learn anyway??

[mikeowski]

How about this? I don't actually have a clue about fugue writing and such, but with this often used time signature of 32/4 you can easily write a 3 voice fugue in 1, and even more easily in 3 bars!

[outin]

RH - 12345232453
                1

LH  - 54321432121
              5      45
^the way they are written there they don't line up properly in time of course.... its just linear.

..that takes a note from the middle voice in the RH, you could do it in the LH fine though..   

You have driven me into depression ...I think I am going to quit piano...
After a very bad practice session (just couldn't get anything right and my fingers were like spaghetti) I tried to play your fug.. whatever and I didn't get it at all... so I must conclude that I am hopeless and it's better to go back to things I am good at

[j_menz]

but with this often used time signature of 32/4 you can easily write a 3 voice fugue in 1, and even more easily in 3 bars!

Then why didn't you?

[ajspiano]

I could take lead from Satie and write with no time signature. Then I'd have a fugue composed in 0 bars.

Outin - it's may not be a real fugue but musical substance and learning value are hardly going to be defined by how "fugue-like" something is.. Even if fugues are arguably one of the more awesome forms.

You'd do better to spend time with simpler counterpoint before playing fugues anyway. There is a pretty large mass of works that precede them pedagogically as I'm sure your aware. Jane mcgrath's book points out a reasonable path if you read her descriptions of a lot of bachs works...

In reference to what I wrote, even though it's very short, the second bar would still present a challenge as far as hand independence for someone who hasn't played many contrapuntal works. If I'd been teaching you to play it I wouldn't have dived straight into HT as written, rather I'd have had you practice the subject on it's own and producing fluent entries..

Kinda like this.. Two hands an octaave apart.
CDEFG     EFGAB
       DEFGA     FGABC

Or, within one hand..
CDEFG  EFGAB GABCD
    CDEFG EFGAB  GABCD

The fingering for which could be, in the RH
12345 12345 1 etc.
   12343 12343 etc.

[outin]

You'd do better to spend time with simpler counterpoint before playing fugues anyway. There is a pretty large mass of works that precede them pedagogically as I'm sure your aware. Jane mcgrath's book points out a reasonable path if you read her descriptions of a lot of bachs works...

I'm afraid I have skipped that part of the book completely...

I just have zero interest Bach or his counterpoint. And when I lack interest I can't make myself learn  

But I may reconsider my decision to quit piano today  

In reference to what I wrote, even though it's very short, the second bar would still present a challenge as far as hand independence for someone who hasn't played many contrapuntal works. If I'd been teaching you to play it I wouldn't have dived straight into HT, rather I'd have had you practice the subject on it's own and producing fluent entries..

That's what I did actually... but my fingers refused to co-operate yesterday, so just couldn't get the fingering together  

I have an issue with simple pieces that should be very easy. It seems that my sight reading problems get in the way too much. When the thing is in the level that I should be able to sight-read easily, my problems with visual space recognition become more obvious. I misread notes and it causes me to get frustrated. I have seen no improvement in this (I have tried the "practice more with simple stuff method" with little gain) though my reading skills in general are getting much better. It's a bit hard to explain, it's kind of a note dyslexia. Of course it happens with more complex pieces too, but since I often start memorising from the beginning, it doesn't bother me as much. And with more complex music there are less individual notes to read as opposed to patterns. I have actually been able to identify many of the problem spots (certain notes or certain patterns that I don't see correctly), so I might experiment with creating a system to mark these things in the score beforehand.

EDIT:
I really appreciate your trying to help!

[j_menz]

I have an issue with simple pieces that should be very easy. It seems that my sight reading problems get in the way too much. When the thing is in the level that I should be able to sight-read easily, my problems with visual space recognition become more obvious. I misread notes and it causes me to get frustrated. I have seen no improvement in this (I have tried the "practice more with simple stuff method" with little gain) though my reading skills in general are getting much better.

Not everything is as easy to sightread as may appear, and fugues (and counterpoint generally) fall into this category, especially if one is not familiar with it.

BTW, whatever my quibbles with AJs composition as a proper fugue, it is good practice for them

[outin]

BTW, whatever my quibbles with AJs composition as a proper fugue, it is good practice for them

I am beginning to believe it was never intended as a fugue at all, but was instead the spell that caused all my troubles today... I never should have touched the damn thing!