Why does everyone hate on Asians?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Okay SO...  This is how it is...

*me playing John Cage 4'33*

Kid:  wow you're soooooooo good!

Me:  well... You know... 

Kid:  know what?

Me:  there's always a five year old kid better than you no matter how hard you practice.

Kid:  Asians have no soul!  That all suck!  You're better than all of them!  They're all robots and they all suck!!!

*kid storms off*



What the freaking heck?!?!?!  I didn't say anything about Asians!!!  He was soooo ugly for that dude!

So when it comes to pretty much everything, why does everyone hate on Asians?  I mean, I understand that they pretty much occupy like 80% of all competitions, but after a certain point... 

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

[faulty_damper]

It's not that Asians have no soul.  But what is different is that there are many more Asians playing the piano than any other ethnicity.  So on pure numbers, there will be a lot more unmusical Asians.  However, if we look at proportions, it will be the same regardless of ethnicity.

Also, there is a negative Asian bias in the Western world.  Asians are looked down upon the way Americans look down upon Hispanics, Asians, blacks, middle Easterners, Indians, American natives, Jews... Yeah, we hate everyone who's not white!

[rachmaninoff_forever]

It's not that Asians have no soul.  But what is different is that there are many more Asians playing the piano than any other ethnicity.  So on pure numbers, there will be a lot more unmusical Asians.  However, if we look at proportions, it will be the same regardless of ethnicity.

Also, there is a negative Asian bias in the Western world.  Asians are looked down upon the way Americans look down upon Hispanics, Asians, blacks, middle Easterners, Indians, American natives, Jews... Yeah, we hate everyone who's not white!

The US motto should be, 'if you got a color, we'll wipe it out! *bomb them*' because that's pretty much what we do unfortunately.

[j_menz]

Okay SO...  This is how it is...

*me playing John Cage 4'33*

Kid:  wow you're soooooooo good!

LOL, you lost all credibility at that point....

[rachmaninoff_forever]

LOL, you lost all credibility at that point....

You're just jealous that you don't have the sufficient technique to tackle this monster work!

[faulty_damper]

No, the technical term is envious.  He's envious he doesn't have the technique to conquer this work.

[scherzo123]

-Looks at rachmaninoff_forever's signature-

  Is that seriously your repertoire 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

-Looks at rachmaninoff_forever's signature-

  Is that seriously your repertoire 

Yup!

*looks away*. 

[perprocrastinate]

Yup!

*looks away*. 

I knew it! You lied about being a child prodigy!

Now you get to join the 'club of being rightfully accused' with j_menz!

AHAHAHA

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I knew it! You lied about being a child prodigy!

Now you get to join the 'club of being rightfully accused' with j_menz!

AHAHAHA

When did I say I was a child prodigy?

I barely started playing piano when I was a child! Nine years old...

[unholeee]

ni shi er

[outin]

When did I say I was a child prodigy?

I think he meant you lied about NOT being a child prodigy

Get it now?

[unholeee]

I think he meant you lied about NOT being a child prodigy

Get it now?

Or being a child... still

[unholeee]

The US motto should be, 'if you got oil/resources, a non controlled bank we'll wipe it out! *bomb them*' because that's pretty much what we do unfortunately.

fixed.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I think he meant you lied about NOT being a child prodigy

Get it now?

What the heck where are you guys getting this from?!

[outin]

What the heck where are you guys getting this from?!

When did you last check your signature...how old are you again?

EDIT:

OK, you won this one 

[unholeee]

just like this right

i wonder what a rachmaninoff hot cross buns would sound like

[rachmaninoff_forever]

When did you last check your signature...how old are you again?

EDIT:

OK, you won this one 

Dude, you guys are freaking crazy... 

Where are you getting the idea that I'm a prodigy?!  I can only play Marry had a little lamb, Cage 4'33 and Hot cross buns.

[j_menz]

You're just jealous that you don't have the sufficient technique to tackle this monster work!

That is true. As I've stated elsewhere, for the life of me I just cannot get it in under 4'37. 

[j_menz]

I knew it! You lied about being a child prodigy!

Now you get to join the 'club of being rightfully accused' with j_menz!

AHAHAHA

I believe you mean "wrongly accused". 

[unholeee]

wongly accused

[rachmaninoff_forever]

wongly accused

No, I think he's rightfully accused. 

Besides, that's always what they say when they're rightfully accused!

[j_menz]

No, I think he's rightfully accused. 

Then you are wrong.

Besides, that's always what they say when they're rightfully accused!

Also when they are wrongly accused.

[lloyd_cdb]

It's not that Asians have no soul.  But what is different is that there are many more Asians playing the piano than any other ethnicity.  So on pure numbers, there will be a lot more unmusical Asians.  However, if we look at proportions, it will be the same regardless of ethnicity.

This is actually untrue.  Due to the nature of language, certain native languages produce more musicians than other languages.  This is due, in part, to the complexities of pronunciation of different words and the natural training of the ear that goes along with understanding it.  Very generically, Asian languages tend to have more subtlety in the tonality differences used in pronouncing similar words.  This gives them a more natural 'musicians ear', so to speak.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Also when they are wrongly accused.

They word it differently.  You didn't word it the way a person who was wrongly accused would word it.  So you're rightfully accused.

[faulty_damper]

This is actually untrue.  Due to the nature of language, certain native languages produce more musicians than other languages.  This is due, in part, to the complexities of pronunciation of different words and the natural training of the ear that goes along with understanding it.  Very generically, Asian languages tend to have more subtlety in the tonality differences used in pronouncing similar words.  This gives them a more natural 'musicians ear', so to speak.

Many Asian languages are classified as tone languages, that it, it is musically melodic compared to German or English.  However, this doesn't make Asians better at interpreting Western music, which uses different cadences and such.  It's a different language, thus they are still bound to the learning as others.

[nanabush]

There are two Asian pianists in my studio, and they are by far the most musically gifted lol!  They have spent lots of time working CAREFULLY on technique, and really understand all the underlying harmony/voicing/musical elements.  They are also really nice, normal people.

Also, Lang Lang did a master class at the NAC in Ottawa recently and I'd have to say he was extremely insightful.  People hate him because he's 'showy' and plays loud; but he can play the hell out of the instrument, and he had a way of connecting with the three students at the master class.  He was really animated, acknowledged the audience, and gave suggestions for interpretation (not on how to play a part faster or louder).  Kind of a tangent, but I wanted to add that.

[lloyd_cdb]

Many Asian languages are classified as tone languages, that it, it is musically melodic compared to German or English.  However, this doesn't make Asians better at interpreting Western music, which uses different cadences and such.  It's a different language, thus they are still bound to the learning as others.

I understand languages such as Vietnamese and Mandarin are tone languages.  Tonal languages have nothing to do with musicality, but instead it's about inflection within the pronunciation.  They have nothing to do with western vs. eastern cadences and whether or not the are melodic.  The tone inflections of the language pronunciation are very subtle and can be outside of the eastern scale, so it has nothing to do with what kind of music they are exposed to.  

The point is that native speakers of these languages can recognize smaller pitch changes.  92% of Mandarin speakers that started musical training before age 5 could recognize perfect pitches (naming the pitch of a note without a reference note).  Comparitively, 8% of English speakers with the same training could recognize them.  Also, American-Asians with native English and moderate Mandarin fell in between these ranges.  Additionally, non-musically trained English speakers can do this at a rate of .01% (I don't have the comparitive Mandarin statistic though).  The first numbers indicate a language link and not a genetic link.  

Additionally, in testing repetition of the same spoken words at different time intervals of tone language speakers found that the repetition of the same words several days apart varied by a pitch change of only a quarter of a step.  Phonetically similar words with minor inflection changes can mean completely different things in these tone languages.  In Mandarin, the word "wei" with different inflections can mean tiny, surround, tail, and feed.  I'm not sure I could name any word in English that has an inflection causing different meanings.  Our only inflections are relevent to what syllable we emphasize.  I started piano at 5, and if I could have minor inflection changes, I probably wouldn't have been asked to mouth the words in chorus when I was 10.

Basically, what these numbers indicate is that the 'musicians ear' is trained by language and not musical exposure.

[faulty_damper]

In Mandarin, and other tone languages, everyone speaks in the same "key".  There is normal fluctuation of the central pitch but it is quickly normalized when people speak to each other.  If they didn't normalize, they would sound out of tune.  It would be polymodal.

Tone languages do have things to do with musicality.  It's fundamentally melodic and understanding melody is the key to good phrasing.  This is why people who speak tone languages naturally prefer playing Chopin because of the central focus on melody; it's easier to understand.

I never understood why my first piano teacher liked Chopin and Schubert so much because I didn't like their music.  I preferred music that was slightly percussive, like English is percussive.

This is probably why musical phrasing was such a difficult concept for me to understand.  It was such a subtle thing that I didn't notice it and didn't feel it.  But now that I do, I use it to judge the quality of a performance.  It's strange that performances that I once thought was very good turned out to be quite bad and irritating because of the lack of phrasing.

[lloyd_cdb]

How is it possible people speak in the same key? Regardless of tonal or musical language, everyone's vocal chords are different.  Every individual is tonally different regardless of language.  The only thing that the language necessitates is the numeric change in pitch. If the pronunciation for a specific word needs to move half a step down, it doesn't matter which note it starts on whether it be from A to A-flat or B to B-flat.  Back and forth discussions aren't polymodal, simply due to each statement being their own distinct phrase.  People may end up drifting towards a similar key simply from human nature, though. Only in singing do people actually adjust their key as a necessity, since clearly it would sound atrocious if they didn't.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not asserting that musicality has nothing to do with tonal languages.  My point was that language musicality is not what is affecting my comment on percentages of musicians, but the fact that their native language is full of tonal inflection.  I'm saying that 'musician's ear' is not derived from the musicality of their speech patterns, or their musical exposure. It's simply from the fact that they are exposed to inflection in speech patterns from birth. This allows them to have a natural inclination for hearing slight pitch changes, or else they wouldn't understand anyone speaking to them.

In regards to your preferences about performances, people just tend to have a bias towards their primary exposure.  I personally always believed that the first version I ever heard of each piece was the best, until I actually learned musicality (just as you said).

[faulty_damper]

People do have different vocal structures which results in unique pitches if they opened up their mouths and say "awww".  (The last time I checked, my normal pitch was about B-flat.)  However, when speaking to other people, we hear that the pitches are out of tune and adjust immediately because dissonance sounds bad.

For example, my toddler nephew's normal pitch was much lower than what was spoken to him.  He sounded out of tune when he made sounds and when he learned to speak.  However, he has since learned the normal speaking pitch which is higher than he spoke before.

Speaking in the same key is normal for all languages, not just tone languages.  However, it is most noticeable in tone languages because vowels are emphasized.

[faulty_damper]

This may be the reason why I prefer the key of B-flat Major; it's my natural vocal pitch.

[chopin2015]

People do have different vocal structures which results in unique pitches if they opened up their mouths and say "awww".  (The last time I checked, my normal pitch was about B-flat.)  However, when speaking to other people, we hear that the pitches are out of tune and adjust immediately because dissonance sounds bad.

For example, my toddler nephew's normal pitch was much lower than what was spoken to him.  He sounded out of tune when he made sounds and when he learned to speak.  However, he has since learned the normal speaking pitch which is higher than he spoke before.

Speaking in the same key is normal for all languages, not just tone languages.  However, it is most noticeable in tone languages because vowels are emphasized.

I seriously imagined a toddler speaking in a deep voice while little spots of drool and boogers are still smudged upon his face. LOL

[clavile]

I see no reason to hate Asians. I think they're inspiring!!!

I mean, if somebody who's 5 is playing a piece I played at 13, that should inspire me to push harder, not fuss!!

I have some Asian friends who are ALL wonderful pianists, and VERY musical.

Asians not only push in piano, but everything else. It's just the way the culture is, and people can hate it or be inspired by it. The people who hate them for it are just stupid, because if they were willing to they could get off their lazy butts and work just as hard and excel just as much as many Asians do, rather than sitting around and complaining about how the Asians "dominate".

If you're sitting around and complaining rather than studying, who's the loser?

Asians tend to take advantage of the opportunities offered in America, and we should be just as eager as they are. We are blessed to have a nation where education and books ABOUND, when other nations have nothing to offer their children.

[faulty_damper]

You sound just like my white friend, Clavile!  She meets a couple of Asians and thinks they represent ALL Asians.  She's white, btw.  And lives in the Dallas/Houston area.

This is the point where I say, "white people..." *shakes head in exasperation.*

Meanwhile, African Americans like to do drugs.  They deal drugs.  They hang out in large groups of other African Americans wearing the same colors.  They don't to school, they go to prison.  They like to beat people up and rob liquor stores.  Oh, and they have dark skin and are very arrogant!  One of them is even the president of the United States!

The above statement could just as easily apply to some Asians, except for the president part.  Asians haven't achieved that kind of racial equality yet.

[ranniks]

Well, guess what? A lot of Asian pianists I've encountered on youtube play the piano without emotion or too fast making it seem emotionless. I don't like it one bit. But then again, you have some great, great Asian pianists. Ray Mak is a great example.

I'm not gonna say I like Lang Lang, but I'm not saying I dislike his art either.

Get me a piano player who can play like Valentina Lisitsa or better yet; Glenn Gould. Now there's a true master of the piano.

It's cool that a 5 year old can do all those things, really cool, but.....Why would it matter if he doesn't put his soul into it? Just playing to please one's parents is just not good and perchance takes the emotion from playing. If the kid really likes the piano, you'll notice in the way he or she is playing.

But in all truth, if they would damn PLAY A LITTLE BIT SLOWER, it would sound so much better. Now it just sounds too fast like they want to get it over with, here a perfect example:

Compare that (the way she is playing) to this wonderful masterpiece:

Notice the obvious difference?

[perprocrastinate]

ranniks,

Don't bang on other people's interpretations. What is 'soul' or 'emotion' to you? Do you expect everyone to contend to your standard of art?

I'm guessing that Cziffra's interpretation of the Chopin 10/4 would totally disgust you. Yes, it's totally ridiculous in speed and the tempo fluctuations, but personally I think that it captures the intensity of the piece quite well.

And about the prodigy thing; yes, it's sometimes annoying when some six year old can play a Chopin Etude better than you, but inability to understand the piece enough to be able to produce a mature interpretation doesn't restrict them from developing technically to achieve their desired standard later on.

Yeah, it does matter. It's not a waste.

Rereading my post, I probably came off as a little hostile, and I apologize. Still, I cringe a little whenever I see a vague criticism involving musicality.

[faulty_damper]

I don't the idea that somehow Asian-ness makes a musician "unmusical".  So being Azn makes you unmusical.  It's not an Azn thing, it's a poor teaching/poor learning/poor technique/lack of awareness thing that ALL pianists can go through.

The Waldstein sonata example is clearly a poor technique thing.  Poor technique leads to poor hearing.  Poor hearing leads to poor musicianship.  The pianist just happens to be Azn but many pianists who are not Azn play poorly just like her.

[emrysmerlin]

[edit:To Ranniks:] Yundi Li's pretty good at interpreting Chopin.

[clavile]

You sound just like my white friend, Clavile!  She meets a couple of Asians and thinks they represent ALL Asians.  She's white, btw.  And lives in the Dallas/Houston area.

This is the point where I say, "white people..." *shakes head in exasperation.*

Meanwhile, African Americans like to do drugs.  They deal drugs.  They hang out in large groups of other African Americans wearing the same colors.  They don't to school, they go to prison.  They like to beat people up and rob liquor stores.  Oh, and they have dark skin and are very arrogant!  One of them is even the president of the United States!

The above statement could just as easily apply to some Asians, except for the president part.  Asians haven't achieved that kind of racial equality yet.

Nah... I'm pretty sure you know what I meant.

Many Asians play piano right? Did I say all? No. Do all Asians push in areas of work and school? No, But many do.

If I'm standing around in a circle with friends, and I have 14 of them, 7 of which are sick, if I say "Dude, everybody's sick today!" Does everybody turn around and snap at me,  "NO, we're not ALL sick!" No, because that part is understood

[lostinidlewonder]

It's called "tall poppy syndrome". There are so many exceptional Asian pianists that people have to try and degrade their achievements with their opionative garbage. Normal human reaction, although I wonder if it will be the same when most of the world speaks Chinese in a few decades from now.

[j_menz]

It's called "tall poppy syndrome". ... I wonder if it will be the same when most of the world speaks Chinese in a few decades from now.

No, it will be called 高大罂粟花综合征

[lostinidlewonder]

Yeah thats how to say it in Chinese, but I wonder if the effect will last for Chinese pianists in years to come, I'm assuming not.

[dcstudio]

Notice the obvious difference?

please tell me you are not comparing a student in a master class to Glenn Gould--I know the point you are trying to make but it would have been far more effective if you found a non-Asian student vid--and there are plenty--for comparison...

Asians do tend to get a bad rap--but I can tell you from 2 decades of teaching that not ALL of them have that gift....lol...I have seen some pretty bad Asian students it's sad because most of their Tiger-Mom parents will not accept the fact that their Asian child is not Lang-Lang. they push them so hard that any chance they may have had at enjoying playing music is lost...

[outin]

Why would anyone hate Asians?? They are small modest hard working people who have the genes for playing the piano. Just like black people have the genes for singing (the blues), dancing and playing basketball. And the Finns have the genes for drinking too much and killing each other/themselves before passing out. It's always good to know what to expect from certain people

[dcstudio]

Why would anyone hate Asians?? They are small modest hard working people who have the genes for playing the piano. Just like black people have the genes for singing (the blues), dancing and playing basketball. And the Finns have the genes for drinking too much and killing each other/themselves before passing out. It's always good to know what to expect from certain people

you are awesome--   too funny

[rachmaninoff_forever]

playing basketball

 

[ranniks]

Now that my friends, is true piano feeling. Kid is gonna grow up to be a great musician. It doesn't seem to me at all that he is forced to play or such. By my ears he is actually playing from the heart. Love me some good played Bach!

[emedylinaira]

Being a Chinese person myself, I am definitely sure that not all Asians are good pianists. Of course, in a school environment, it's very easy to "hate on Asians" - because of the amount of Asians that succeed, play instruments, etc.

Someone posted earlier about how "Tiger moms" simply won't accept that their kid isn't the next Lang Lang - I cannot imagine my mother like that. She is quite the opposite of a Tiger mom ("Mom, I don't want to do my homework..." "Then don't do it!") - but those who are, they don't want their kid studying music in university. They don't want their kid making music their career, unless they truly are phenomenal, and at some point they'll realize it. Grades are emphasized already, of course - so it's not like their child won't have a future!!

It's just a stereotype problem. I lived until 9 in the Dallas area, and the elementary school I went to was about 60% Chinese. I have the feeling sometimes that my mother put me in piano lessons at 4 because all her other Chinese mother friends were doing the same. (I agreed to it though. Or at least I think I did. It's all a blur, but I do not regret continuing to play piano throughout the years.)

[faulty_damper]

I agree that there are way too many stereotypes about Asians in general.  Asians are not a large percentage of the population in most places, and as a result, stereotypes are formed from the limited interactions with Asians or simply from watching movies which include Asian characters.

For example, my friend's mom is from Korea.  One time she visited her daughter here in the States and while riding the elevator up to her apartment, a black man got on.  Immediately, she became scared and hid behind her daughter because she thought the black man would murder her.  The only information she had about black men were from movies, which happens to depict black men as murderers, rapists, gang members, and committing other violent crimes.