Strange reading problem

[tommyrack]

Okay, firstly - this is my only foray into the forum thus far so hello everyone!

Just to give a quick background - I've just finished an MA in Music (with main emphasis on composition). Also, have been a guitarist for around 10 years. I compose in a variety of styles, mainly for medium to large scale orchestra, with a particular passion for composers such as Ligeti and Bartok.

Now, all of these scores are fully notated (standard notation, variety of clefs, etc.) and I feel like I am familiar with the concept of written music and can follow a score along with a recording (have even dabbled with conducting), however I just CANNOT sight-read to save my life. I'm an atrocious pianist to go with all of this, and these are two things I would very much like to correct.

I've just started piano lessons, yet my teacher is currently stumped as to what the issue with my reading is, and I was hoping that there might be someone on here who might have a suggestion?

Really hope someone might be able to help!
Thanks,
Tom

[faulty_damper]

You can't read because you have no memory of what you are reading.  It's a just a bunch of dots and lines to you.  You also have no memory of the patterns the dots and lines are creating thus you are overwhelmed when you look at it.

You're only option is to learn how to read.  And considering that you aren't a pianist, it's going to be a rather steep learning curve.  What I suggest is to play very simply, one-line melody parts in a score.  Just with one hand.  And simply do this for a week and record your improvement.

Your goal is to MEMORIZE note patterns so that they seem familiar even in new music.

[tommyrack]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by your first line "you can't read because you have no memory of what you are reading" - could you clarify that for me please?

Tom

[Bob]

You must be able to sight-read at some level, right? Just start there.  Go through more music.  More practice.

[faulty_damper]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by your first line "you can't read because you have no memory of what you are reading" - could you clarify that for me please?

Tom

Everything that you can do, from writing, typing, walking, playing guitar, reading... is done from memory.  You have very specific memories about each of these things that you simply recall and act upon that allows you to do it.  Without these memories, you will utterly stumble at each step.  This is why you must memorize many things to be able to sight-read.  If you don't, you'll never be able to do it well.

[keypeg]

I may have a fair bit of insight into this.  Let me tell my reading story, the work that's been done both alone and with a teacher, and the results.  Maybe you can grab the parts that may work.  I now can sight read fairly decently on piano, btw. (which in this case matters).

Growing up, I developed a way of "reading" via the bit of solfege we were given in school, so that I found Do: If I saw a straight line of notes I heard a scale, and then sang or played what I heard.  With Common Practice type music or the kind we usually encounter, I was anticipating where it would logically go, and looked for clues that it was going there.  What I was doing is what musicians in fact do, but it was all that I had.  I played music from written scores on a number of instruments doing this.  I had self-taught piano until around age 17, and then had no piano until over 30 years later.

In my late 40's I took lessons on a new instrument, and used the same strategy.  We didn't know that I wasn't really reading because I'd take the score home and come back playing it.  I wasn't really reading it in the sense that I didn't know what a note was, and didn't associate notes on the instrument.  Until one day I was sight reading a grade 5 piece prima vista, didn't use the prescribed fingering and when my teacher stopped me I didn't know where I was, even though I had been playing the correct notes.  Shortly after that I studied theory, starting with note names.

Now, on to PIANO.  I got a DP again after 35 years.  When I was given music which was not of the type I had played as a teen - (I had played mostly Clementi and other sonatinas, which as most people know have predictable patterns) - I was lost.  I couldn't really read.  By now I knew enough to be able to set out learn how to read.  I was fortunate to meet up with my present teacher whose insights accelerated this.

Here is what reading involves for an instrumentalist:  You  have the notes on the page.  You have the notes residing in your instrument - piano key locations for piano.  You need to see B on the page, which will create a reflex to push the "B" key on the piano.  You may also see a Cm chord on the page, and have a Cm keys reflex on the piano - this also becomes a feeling in the hand, and possibly a sound in the ear.  You see C, then D on the page, and as the D rises upward on the page going from space to line, you are also picturing going to the right to the next note.

This is the relationship that you need to build.  There is no reason why it should be there for you already, if you didn't play piano before.  When you play guitar, you have another set of reflexes that go with that instrument.

It gets really weird if you are advanced in some areas, and find yourself lacking in an area that the 5 year olds are building.  But that's how it is.

[keypeg]

Faulty Damper, you were rather brief, and that may be part of the reason why some of what you wrote seems confusing or I have doubts or it's uncertain what you mean.  First there is this:

You can't read because you have no memory of what you are reading.  It's a just a bunch of dots and lines to you.  You also have no memory of the patterns the dots and lines are creating thus you are overwhelmed when you look at it.

Neither of us has met the OP or seen what he does with music, so we don't actually know this.  We do know that he has a degree in music, composes, and plays guitar (whether with or without music, we don't know).  The notes may not just be dots.  We'd have to find out what the OP can do at present with notation, under which circumstances, and how he goes about it.

We should also look into what "reading music" entails for an instrumentalist.  It is more complicated and hiccups can be in strange places for those who have a background of some kind in music.

You then write about memory, which I think most people would agree on.  But what kind of memory?  Is this an intellectual memory that sees E on the bottom line of the treble clef and knows it's E?  (Which a composer may already have).  Does one go about memorizing this?  Is it an intellectual memory that knows that the piano has 2 black keys, and the note in the middle is D, which corresponds to D in notation?  Is it a physical memory that gets created by repeating that knowledge?  Or do you establish the physical memory in another way?  If so, how?  What happens when we read piano music?

This is why you must memorize many things to be able to sight-read.

What kinds of things do you memorize?  Supposing that I play classical guitar (which I do), and recognize a melody line, interweaving voices, and chords, all written on the staff in the treble clef (which I do).  Does that mean that I'm all set to go for playing notes written in the treble clef on the piano?  Or is something else missing?

That's the part that I'm stumbling on.

[fleetfingers]

I agree with what keypeg said about associating the notes on the page with the keys on the piano. It will need to become an automatic response in your hands and fingers as you practice sight reading. You may be already familiar with how piano chords look in their written form, but now you need to become familiar with what shape they hold on the keyboard; also the fingers that are used to play them. Just like you did with guitar.

As a composer, you probably already know your keys, scales, and chords. Practice them on the piano, so you can see how black keys fit in to each scale, and what it looks and feels like under your fingers.

No matter how well you can read music, you still have to learn piano technique. You can't simply read the music and sing along, you have to train your fingers to behave and keep up with what your eyes and ears are understanding. It will take time and a lot of practice. Be patient.

[faulty_damper]

Neither of us has met the OP or seen what he does with music, so we don't actually know this.  We do know that he has a degree in music, composes, and plays guitar (whether with or without music, we don't know).  The notes may not just be dots.  We'd have to find out what the OP can do at present with notation, under which circumstances, and how he goes about it.

Since the description of piano sight-reading was terrible, it is safe to assume that he has little memory what the notes mean as it relates to the piano.  He may know what they mean in the context of a guitar tab or when composing, but this means that it is context-bound; he cannot transfer this knowledge to the piano.

You then write about memory, which I think most people would agree on.  But what kind of memory?  Is this an intellectual memory that sees E on the bottom line of the treble clef and knows it's E?  (Which a composer may already have).  Does one go about memorizing this?

This kind of knowledge is not necessary to be able to sight-read fluently even though it is taught to most beginners.  Sight-reading does not require decoding and interpreting notes on a staff into letter names.  This is simply theory.

Is it an intellectual memory that knows that the piano has 2 black keys, and the note in the middle is D, which corresponds to D in notation?  Is it a physical memory that gets created by repeating that knowledge?  Or do you establish the physical memory in another way?  If so, how?  What happens when we read piano music?

To be able to play the piano, one must have a thorough kinesthetic topographic knowledge (memory) of the keyboard layout.  Sight is helpful, but not necessary (as in the case of blind pianists.)  Topographic memory can only be done at the piano.  This requires actual playing, including random mashing of the keys, in order to memorize the keyboard layout.

What kinds of things do you memorize?  Supposing that I play classical guitar (which I do), and recognize a melody line, interweaving voices, and chords, all written on the staff in the treble clef (which I do).  Does that mean that I'm all set to go for playing notes written in the treble clef on the piano?  Or is something else missing?

As for transferring knowledge from guitar to piano, assuming that the theoretical knowledge of reading is known, the necessary skills involve associating the written notes with which piano keys to depress.  The only way to develop this skill is to practice, which is a fancy way of saying "repeat".

[keypeg]

To be able to play the piano, one must have a thorough kinesthetic topographic knowledge (memory) of the keyboard layout.  Sight is helpful, but not necessary (as in the case of blind pianists.)  Topographic memory can only be done at the piano.  This requires actual playing, including random mashing of the keys, in order to memorize the keyboard layout.

...............

As for transferring knowledge from guitar to piano, assuming that the theoretical knowledge of reading is known, the necessary skills involve associating the written notes with which piano keys to depress.  The only way to develop this skill is to practice, which is a fancy way of saying "repeat".

This is where we are roughly on the same page.  The sense of piano must be formed, meaning the topography of the black and white keys.  Reading piano music means being able to relate what is on the page with what is on the keyboard.  What bothered me about the first advice is that it was too general.  Thank you for expanding on it.  "Memory" can mean memorizing the notes on the page in an "Every Good Boy" kind of way, and then studying pictures of the keyboard and memorizing the notes there.  It must be said, because too many people do try to do just that.  There is a big physical component, like when you drive a car and automatically do the right motions, or when you see a stop sign (your notation) and reach for the brakes (your instrument).

I basically agree, but would break it down more.  For example, maybe start with a few notes to recognize and read, and expand. Besides mashing keys (I like that idea ) maybe learning to play chords - major, minor - maybe by colour: all the major chords that have black on the outside and white in the middle - and then relate that to chords in notation.  Like a back and forth.   I think you get it more solidly than just going at it.  For me the latter is information overload.

One thing that often happens when someone with a musical background starts taking lessons on  piano as a new instrument, is that the teacher does not spend enough time on fundamental skills.  I believe that we need the same skills as a rank beginner, and this tends to be rushed through.  We can do relatively advanced things early on, and then find ourselves perpetually missing the basics.  There are so many things that are more interesting to teach than seeing C and pressing C, or finding all the D's on the piano.  We're capable of understanding the more interesting things, so the temptation is there.  I'm remembering the fact that the OP's teacher is mystified by his weakness in reading.  Should he be?

[faulty_damper]

Most people assume that I can sightread simply because I can play very difficult sounding music.  The truth is that I was and am a poor sightreader; it was never a necessary skill.  Even though I told my teachers my weakness, their best advice was to "practice".  I don't know how to do something and they told me to practice what I didn't know how to do.

One thing that often happens when someone with a musical background starts taking lessons on  piano as a new instrument, is that the teacher does not spend enough time on fundamental skills.  I believe that we need the same skills as a rank beginner, and this tends to be rushed through.  We can do relatively advanced things early on, and then find ourselves perpetually missing the basics.  There are so many things that are more interesting to teach than seeing C and pressing C, or finding all the D's on the piano.  We're capable of understanding the more interesting things, so the temptation is there.  I'm remembering the fact that the OP's teacher is mystified by his weakness in reading.  Should he be?

What's nice about having a musical background is that the theory does not need to be taught.  However, it does need to be applied to the new instrument and I think this is where the problem is.

Identifying notes is one problem.  But since theory is understood, notes can be combined into chords on the piano.  This tackles learning 3 or 4 keys on the piano, and saves a lot of time.  And also, the guitar background can help since once chords are known, the student can riff something, a chord progression from a song, and s/he's basically off on his own.

[ajspiano]

This will be rather incomplete (and largely plagiarised) ...

Firstly, from the content of the OP - I think its a its a little unreasonable to suggest that anyone here can nail to wall exactly why tommyrack finds sight reading a challenge. Thus, I'm going to instead point out a bunch of factors involved and allow him to figure out himself what exactly the issue is..

Be an open book -
Fluent sightreading requires that you are in "information absorption" mode. Don't be to focused on errors and playing the right thing. Stay focused on whats coming next.

Don't look at the keyboard -
Every time you look at the keys you stop looking at the page and therefore stop absorbing information. In order to do this you need to get to know the keyboard by feel, without looking - which can be actively practiced by finding your way around without looking. Basic orientation centers on you being able to easily locate groups of either 2 or 3 black keys. These are the guides for your topographical feel for the piano.

I'm also inclined to argue that improvisation, and exposure to musically relevant scale patterns in all keys helps a lot with this. You need to be technically comfortable with the material in order to be able to perform it fluently on site. Improvisation is a good way to expose yourself to different patters (along side study of notated music) because like reading, you don't really know whats coming until you get to it..  you don't memorise large patterns, you just play whats next. Ofcourse, having said that, memory is a factor in reading..  because you need to be a bit ahead of yourself.. while your playing one thing you're reading the next thing.

Develop a relationship between the staff and the keyboard, such as that we know that the exterior lines on the treble staff are E and F, and their position on the staff and keyboard are both absolute..  as such they are not just E and F, but they are a specific E and F in a specific position on the keyboard, and anything written within the lines of the treble falls within that physical space..  this may seem obvious, but it helps to have conciously observed such things, and realise where certain boundaries are on the staff and the keyboard.
...

Where are your holes as far as what you get from the page?

The notation tells you 3 things primarily..

• Pitch
• Rhythm
• Fingering - either as marked, or inferred from the shape of the phrases.

Its wise to work on managing each of these things independently of each other before trying to do them all at once. Especially since at the piano you have to manage each of them at least twice over at the same time.

..SO..

Can you tap the rhythm alone for a simple piece, without any thought to pitch and fingering?
Can you read all the notes fluently without any stalls without considering the rhythm or fingering?
Can you manage reading the notes/rhythm fluently but you hands get in a knot trying to execute it?

Devise ways to work on each concept separately where you find you have problems.

[keypeg]

Most people assume that I can sightread simply because I can play very difficult sounding music.  The truth is that I was and am a poor sightreader; it was never a necessary skill.  Even though I told my teachers my weakness, their best advice was to "practice".  I don't know how to do something and they told me to practice what I didn't know how to do.

This has got to be the number one weakness in an otherwise good teacher - not being able to tell a student how to acquire a skill.  It seems that the hardest skill to teach is the one that you have naturally when you don't know how you got it.  Then you have to try to break it down to find out what it actually consists of, and then find some method by which your student can acquire it.  It also makes sense that every strength is a weakness.  If you don't need to sight read, why would you acquire the ability unless someone pushes it or you know it's important?

What's nice about having a musical background is that the theory does not need to be taught.  However, it does need to be applied to the new instrument and I think this is where the problem is.

Yes.  I've learned, in fact, that we can learn to view that theory in a new way on top of just applying it normally, and this is a powerful thing.  For a pianist such as yourself, you are probably already viewing things like chords "pianistically".  That is to say that a chord is a shape in your hands, and is related to the heights of black and white keys.  You only have to fuse two areas of knowledge.  For someone playing another instrument, brand new physical associations get formed.

Identifying notes is one problem.  But since theory is understood, notes can be combined into chords on the piano.  This tackles learning 3 or 4 keys on the piano, and saves a lot of time. 

It's interesting that you mention this.  I came to reading music mostly with the background of a singer and single-note instruments.  Even my early piano "reading" was from the view of solfege.  I had been given my grandmother's sonatina collection for learning piano and even the Alberti bass was heard as a separate "melody" rather than a series of broken up chords.  It set me up nicely for things like Inventions and counterpoint.  Meanwhile pianists tend to perceive music vertically, and read in vertical chunks.  That brings you straight to chords.

Going back to theory - Chords and melody, chords and scales, interrelate.  You can get a sense of the one from the other, as you say.