Removing whiteout from finish?

[m1469]

Unfortunately, a bottle of whiteout leaked out onto the ebony, gloss finish of my piano and it completely dried before I knew what happened.  Does anybody have expert advice on how to care for/remove this?  I do have a kind of spray which is supposedly made for cleaning pianos, and somebody has suggested window cleaner as a way to clean it regularly, but ...

Here's what it looks like (you are also viewing my textured ceiling in the reflection, btw):

[iansinclair]

How sad!  Better that, though, than somebody's martini...

Start off with just plain old water.  And maybe a finger nail, to discourage it (try the finger nail somewhere unobvious, to make sure it doesn't scratch).

I would not use window cleaner myself; it often contains ammonia.  There is a soap, called "Murphy's Oil Soap", which is available in North America -- I'm not sure where you call home -- which sometimes works wonders, with patience.  But I'd start out with just plain water and something which doesn't scratch.

Whatever you use, make sure it does not contain alcohol of any kind or acetone.  Depending on the type of finish, they could be catastrophic.

You might try one of the citrus based cleaners, but again I would try it somewhere unobvious first...

Good luck!

[m1469]

Yes, sad!  This is the first super stupid thing that's happened to it.  My first inclination would be warm water to soften it, but isn't water itself scary for it?  I'm scared to do that, but is it bad mainly if it sits and stays on it?  If I work up the nerve, I'll try that first and with a fingernail as you suggest.  Thank you!

[hfmadopter]

Yes, sad!  This is the first super stupid thing that's happened to it.  My first inclination would be warm water to soften it, but isn't water itself scary for it?  I'm scared to do that, but is it bad mainly if it sits and stays on it?  If I work up the nerve, I'll try that first and with a fingernail as you suggest.  Thank you!

How old is the piano ? I suspect that most modern pianos are not finished in Shellac and shellac while a beautiful finish is indeed sensitive to especially alcohol and other chemical cleaners. And water if left to sit will cloud the shellac finish, alcohol will eat a shellac finish, since it's based from alcohol and ground lac... While some companies may be left still using shellac, I think you will find that most are using harder products, like urethanes and epoxies if not clear coating with products similar to what is on new automobiles (clear acrylics and or urethane), which glass cleaner and rubbing alcohol surely won't hurt. But at any rate, maybe more important is what the white out is made from, if it's water based you may be in luck either way and a little soap and warm water will do the trick. Just use enough to lift the stain and then dry it off with a soft cloth.

I use Shellac and also lacquer ( lacquer has been known to be used on pianos too and is more durable against chemicals than shellac) on my clock cases I build and use a citrus furniture polish on them or recommend the new owners to do so ( actually they get several coats of butchers wax before they leave me.). Point being I know those two products don't hurt shellac.

As has been suggested, find an inconspicuous spot, maybe under the fall board or under the lower edge of the side of the piano to conduct a test with what ever you use.

This is a good reason to switch to the ribbon style white out that rolls off a dispenser spool from here on out..

[iansinclair]

Yes, sad!  This is the first super stupid thing that's happened to it.  My first inclination would be warm water to soften it, but isn't water itself scary for it?  I'm scared to do that, but is it bad mainly if it sits and stays on it?  If I work up the nerve, I'll try that first and with a fingernail as you suggest.  Thank you!

Water is bad, but only if it sits on there for any length of time.  Even shellac can survive water for a while!  Just wipe it off in a few minutes and you should be OK.  And if, as hfm suggests, the finish is one of the newer polyurethanes, it can survive a pretty aggressive attack -- if you need to do it.

[silverwoodpianos]

From the photos it looks like an Asian grand in grain filled polyester. The whiteout is sitting on top of the finish by mechanical bond and can be removed fairly easily. If it is high gloss the trick is to remove the whiteout without leaving small swirls in the finish….

A piano of this vintage would not be in shellac as nitro cellulose was being used from about 1900 and by 1930 almost all pianos were being sprayed with nitro.

White out is titanium dioxide with a liquid carrier, most likely water, and some drying chemicals. I would wet the surface to make it soft again and the wipe it down lightly.

[m1469]

Thanks for your responses!  I am slowly working up the nerve to try things.  I suppose I should have specified the piano to begin with, it's a 1980/82 Yamaha C7.  I assume it's high gloss finish, but I don't know enough about finishes to know if there are variations in gloss!  One time my dog shook himself right after a bath right by it (just little sprinkles), and I wiped the water and though it clouded a bit at first, the clouding did seem to go away.  Once I fully work up the nerve (soon) to try something, I will indeed do it on an inconspicuous spot first.

PS - I have nearly zero fingernails  .  I can't even stand the itsiest bit of white showing on them!  But, probably I can still manage.

[ahinton]

My best suggestion is to try with a plastic spatula of the kind that one might use when defrosting a non-frost-free freezer, but do it slowly and very gently! If you can get rid of the errant fluid - or at least the worst of it - without using any chemicals at all, so much the better, because you obviously want to avoid the risk of any possible reaction between the piano finish and whatever chemicals you'd otherwise be using. If you must use anything, you could try methylated spirits on a soft cloth but, again, use that very sparingly indeed and wipe slowly and gently; if you do this, be sure to wipe the treated surface afterwards with a soft cloth moistened with a little ashing-up liquid and warm water and then lastly gently dab the treated area dry with soft absorbent paper kitchen towels.

The moral is always to try to avoid putting anything on or near the piano except music on the music stand! Years ago, someone put a vase of flowers on my Mason & Hamlin grand with a fabric runner underneath it but the vase leaked and water soaked through, leaving a nasty water spot which was not noticed until some days afterwards when the vase was removed; dealing with this was quite easy - I had to have the entire thing stripped and re-finished at a the pound sterling equivalent of almost £2,000 US dollars. Fun! Not.

Best,

Alistair

[lhorwinkle]

It would be useful to know what solvent is used in white out. If I knew, I'd give that a try.

But since I don't ... try more white out. A very small amount, enough to cover the existing spot.

Allow the new white out to dissolve the old. Don't let it dry. Just give it a moment to work on the old mark. Then wipe it up with a soft cloth, followed by a water-moistened cloth.

[m1469]

Well, every single thing is freaking me out!  I never use anything on it except for dry, special dusting cloths (though I've used windex at the suggestion of my technician, and I got a bad feeling in my guts about it so I stopped immediately).  I am actually hyper sensitive about it all, and most of the time keep it mostly covered.  I by law do not ever put any type of liquid on or near it, and even though I'm sure I've been guilty of using it as a desk at times, I'm not sure how this whiteout snuck its way there ... it was buried under music, which is why I didn't notice it until it dried.  I'm so paranoid about wiping it though, that I don't even dust it enough with the right kind of cloths, because I'm convinced that it's still getting scratched simply because I'm running anything over it at all and because I know that dust is actually abrasive.  I'm pretty sure it gets harmed just by getting looked at and thought about getting dusted!  Even a perfectly new razor has been suggested ... but I admit I'm completely like a deer in the headlights about it.  All the while the stuff is sitting there.  I know, I'm treating it like it's a Steinway or Bose or something, which it's not, but to me it is.  OK, this evening I will work up the nerve.

[silverwoodpianos]

 Use your driver’s license or a credit card to see if you can get under the edge. Do not use anything stronger than white vinegar.

Not sure if more whiteout will soften the original drop once it is cured out. I would take a damp dishcloth that has some residue of detergent, put your finger inside and hold it down on top of the drop for about 30 seconds and see what happens.

[m1469]

.

[hfmadopter]

Well, every single thing is freaking me out!  I never use anything on it except for dry, special dusting cloths (though I've used windex at the suggestion of my technician, and I got a bad feeling in my guts about it so I stopped immediately).  I am actually hyper sensitive about it all, and most of the time keep it mostly covered.  I by law do not ever put any type of liquid on or near it, and even though I'm sure I've been guilty of using it as a desk at times, I'm not sure how this whiteout snuck its way there ... it was buried under music, which is why I didn't notice it until it dried.  I'm so paranoid about wiping it though, that I don't even dust it enough with the right kind of cloths, because I'm convinced that it's still getting scratched simply because I'm running anything over it at all and because I know that dust is actually abrasive.  I'm pretty sure it gets harmed just by getting looked at and thought about getting dusted!  Even a perfectly new razor has been suggested ... but I admit I'm completely like a deer in the headlights about it.  All the while the stuff is sitting there.  I know, I'm treating it like it's a Steinway or Bose or something, which it's not, but to me it is.  OK, this evening I will work up the nerve.

m1469, lacquer will not get eaten or clouded from a little detergent and water. It could suffer some micro scratches from the cloth and or card that you use to lift the mess away but that should be able to be rubbed out with a little polishing compound or sometimes even furniture polish and a waxing. Incidentally, if you keep the piano heavilly waxed this should lift right off, lacquer is reasonably tough.

[silverwoodpianos]

An 80’s Yammy would be poly; I would be surprised if it was lacquer.

The clouding that the OP mentioned in a previous posting would most likely be the wax buildup in whatever dusting compound used such as Pledge or one of the other ones….

The droplets of water off the dog would cause the wax to appear milky until the water evaporated then there would be a faint tide mark left where the droplets were.

This is why I suggested white vinegar. Vinegar will strip off the wax residue and may take the whiteout along for the ride.

Some small scratches would likely disappear over time and further dusting.

[m1469]

Well, I don't use pledge or furniture polish at all, and I don't even use the actual cleaner that a different technician recommended for me to buy (and I bought).  I don't think the previous owner used that, either, as she was really careful and actually gave me the special dusting cloths.  I *hate* putting anything on it.  It goes against my being!    But, I understand I will have to put *something* on it, there is no way around it.  It seems I may just have to accept that something might be permanent about this.  Right now, I'm thinking either plain warm water or vinegar ... but, I can't actually think anymore about this until hours from now.  Ciao e grazie!  

[hfmadopter]

Well, I don't use pledge or furniture polish at all, and I don't even use the actual cleaner that a different technician recommended for me to buy (and I bought).  I don't think the previous owner used that, either, as she was really careful and actually gave me the special dusting cloths.  I *hate* putting anything on it.  It goes against my being!    But, I understand I will have to put *something* on it, there is no way around it.  It seems I may just have to accept that something might be permanent about this.  Right now, I'm thinking either plain warm water or vinegar ... but, I can't actually think anymore about this until hours from now.  Ciao e grazie!  

I'm thinking there will be some sort of lite residual, ya. The good news is poly is even tougher than Nitro Lacquer but it doesn't rub out as easy. There probably isn't much in your cupboard that will eat it, maybe fingernail polish remover would eat it but nobody has suggested that yet ! A lot depends on if it was a standard poly or a catylized poly ( two part poly, uses a catalyst to kick it to a harder than average surface and a chemical dry process vs just air dry, very tough surface).

[iansinclair]

Ah yes... wax.  Probably, on a modern piano with a poly finish it isn't really needed.  In fact, it may not really be desirable -- I can well understand your hesitancy about putting anything on your instrument!

That said, on my ancient piano it is needed, and I use a product called Briwax, in the ebony colour.  It does take patience and care and discretion -- but it does make a nice finish (except on the places where the veneer has come adrift... )

[rachfan]

Hi m1469,

There are a lot of suggestions here.  If you can't find one here that works, another resource would be the Tuner-Technician Forum at Piano World, some of whom may have encountered and resolved this problem in their travels.  Link:

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/forums/3/1/Piano%20Tuner-Technicians%20Forum.html

Good luck on that.

David

[quantum]

m1469,

I regularly clean my 1985 C3 with a damp microfiber cloth.  Using plain water does not leave any marks on the finish once dried.  The music desk has the most wear showing in the finish, with years of use placing music on it.  They are only micro scratches, and not really disagreeable to me.  

It would be a good idea to start with gentle methods, then gradually progress to more aggressive ones if the former fails to do the job.  

[m1469]

Thank you so much to everyone!  I finally worked up the nerve, after your comments and advices, to try warm water on a soft cloth and my thumbnail (which I purposely didn't cut even though it's getting too long to play the piano with, imo), and then wiped the water off with a towel.  Here's the same place on the piano:



I think you could say it worked!  I really thought that water was going to immediately ruin it, and that I was destined to noticeably scratch it with anything I used to scrape off the whiteout.  I was also being severely paranoid on top of ignorant!  It definitely needed the water first, but then peeled off (well, the round one more or less peeled off, the other one scraped/peeled off in bits).  Anyway, I think it's all OK, afterall!  Thank you again .

[goldentone]

Great!

[hfmadopter]

I think you could say it worked!  I really thought that water was going to immediately ruin it, and that I was destined to noticeably scratch it with anything I used to scrape off the whiteout.  I was also being severely paranoid on top of ignorant!  It definitely needed the water first, but then peeled off (well, the round one more or less peeled off, the other one scraped/peeled off in bits).  Anyway, I think it's all OK, afterall!  Thank you again .

Excellent new m1469 !!

[iansinclair]

Bravo!

[silverwoodpianos]

Well,
the finish looks better now....where is the bottle of whiteout??

[m1469]

Well, the bottle is certainly not on the piano!  It's in the process of finding a permanent place of residence that will be suitable for it!

Yeah, actually, the finish is more clear where I have wiped it like that.  I notice there's a kind of film around it ... and maybe on the whole piano.  I admit, I really don't know what I am doing when it comes to truly caring for it.