Depression and Suicide.

[lostinidlewonder]

Depression can be a terrible disease that I think too many of us underestimate. Everyone experiences depression at one point, some unfortunately reach the far end and die.

How can we be angry at them? I hear peoples anger about suicide all the time that it is a selfish act, a choice, why did they this or that etc. But do us "stone throwers" actually know what deep depression can do to a normal mind?

I don't think that all those contemplating suicide to escape depression realise that they are going down that terrible path. It is like a frog that lets itself get boiled to death in slowly heated water.

What a damn shame that those that take their life didn't wait just a little longer to allow the terrible impulse to die to fall away from action. They might be tired of waiting, they might not have the strength to carry on, they might have no will to live etc, but this is not them speaking, it is the disease that has tainted their mind and made a renewal in life seem an impossibility.

How do we help people cope with depression? It is such a silent disease you often may not even realise that the person you love is so depressed they want to die until it is too late.

How wonderful it is to have a God that you can see in your own life. One that is never disappointed in you for you both know you can never always do what is right in Gods eyes. A God that saves you in times of desperation where no one can save you. One that ALWAYS Loves you.

I pray for this Love in everyone's life.
I pray for those who suffer silently to never give up and to find courage to share their troubles, don't keep it bottled within.
I pray that everyone waits just that little bit more during times of great darkness, things can change in a matter of minutes... even seconds.
I pray that God sends the right people at the right time to save those who suffer and bless the actions of these "human angels" to do what is good.
This might all seem like happy thoughts but I know so many will be lost and left with no hope, many will perish but I beg for miracles to happen and save a few.

Love you all xoxoxo.

___________________________________________
In memory of those I have lost to suicide. Dear God please hold them in your hands while they rest, wipe every tear from their eyes. Give strength to their family and don't let them feel despair with no relief.

[faulty_damper]

Depression is usually the result of the lack of connections with other people.  This may mean the person has no friends or family.

People who are bullied, especially students, suffer the worst because they become social outcasts.  The fact that adults imprison them into schools and don't communicate with them like they are real people forces them to withdraw.  They have no friends and no one to talk to.  Counselors are of no help because they are paid to talk and paid to care; they are not genuine.  When parents do not understand what is going on, their child suffers even more.  Sometimes, parents even punish their own child not knowing what the real problem was.  This shows their lack of understanding, something their child desperately needed.

Even people who seem like they have lots of friends and a large social circle can suffer from depression simply because they lack genuine friendships or connections.  They may lack genuine friendships because they act in ways that are different from who they are; they try too hard to fit in to a crowd while simultaneously betraying who they are.  The old adage, "be yourself", is not just a piece of advice - it is a piece of wisdom.

If you imagine someone who lives a life without connections, no friends or understanding family, what is the purpose of living?

[outin]

I assume you two are serious? Don't seem to know much about depression though...

Real depression is a disease related to brain chemistry. It is not caused by the lack of social connections (often the other way round) and "God" can do nothing to help even if it existed. It is unfortunately sometimes a fatal disease and more often chronic. Treatment in short term is medication and long term therapy which is difficult (one way does not work for all), slow and expensive and that's why many will never have access to it.

[faulty_damper]

Yes, we are serious.

Depression is a result of the lack of social ties.  As a result of the lack of social support, the brain chemistry changes, parts of the brain degenerate, and depression continues this downward spiral by further hampering the person from interacting with others.

This is why prisoners placed in solitary confinement, with no previous signs of depression, exhibit symptoms nearly identical to clinical depression afterward.  MRI scans of clinically depressed patients and prisoners immediately after solitary confinement are also nearly identical.  Medical experts now argue that solitary confinement is cruel and unusual and wants to abolish this kind of punishment because of the massive amounts of brain degeneration incurred during even short stays in isolation.

Doctors talk about it like it's a brain chemistry issue, which it is, but ignore how it became that way.  The altered hormonal balance and neurotransmitters, as well as degeneration of neuro-receptors or failure to synthesize them, is the result of social isolation.

[lostinidlewonder]

Depression is usually the result of the lack of connections with other people.  This may mean the person has no friends or family.

Depression can occur from many different issues, but you a right often lack of real friends and family can play a large role in this.

If you imagine someone who lives a life without connections, no friends or understanding family, what is the purpose of living?

There is no reason if these are your only outlets for love. This is why for those that believe in a God it is so important to develop your relationship with a God, because in the end it might be all you have left.

I assume you two are serious? Don't seem to know much about depression though...

 "God" can do nothing to help even if it existed.

I can give you hundreds of testaments from people that God saved people from killing themselves. I really don't wish to debate this issue though.

It is unfortunately sometimes a fatal disease and more often chronic. Treatment in short term is medication and long term therapy which is difficult (one way does not work for all), slow and expensive and that's why many will never have access to it.

Thankful it is a chronic disease more often, but even those that live with it and always feel "down" their quality of life is severely demented. A caring stranger can help one with depression on a lot more than popping a pill trying to mask the disease. Psychs have fooled us in the 20th/21st century about a chemical imbalance, there is no such complete knwoedge of this and there is no complete evidence of this, they think medication can change brain chemistry and thus cure people, this is not proven yet unfortunately trusted and believed by the majority.

I think it is so important to speak out if you are depressed,  but speak to the right people. The are some who will pull you down further, you have to avoid these people. And how wonderful it is when you can turn battling depression into a force to help others battling with it! Modern society is so segregated, we have no brother/sister connection with strangers, even our own family! So many turn their nose up at those saying they are depressed, they don't understand it, they think it is attention seeking or being "weak". Shame on them!

[outin]

Yes, we are serious.

Depression is a result of the lack of social ties.  As a result of the lack of social support, the brain chemistry changes, parts of the brain degenerate, and depression continues this downward spiral by further hampering the person from interacting with others.

This is why prisoners placed in solitary confinement, with no previous signs of depression, exhibit symptoms nearly identical to clinical depression afterward.  MRI scans of clinically depressed patients and prisoners immediately after solitary confinement are also nearly identical.  Medical experts now argue that solitary confinement is cruel and unusual and wants to abolish this kind of punishment because of the massive amounts of brain degeneration incurred during even short stays in isolation.

Doctors talk about it like it's a brain chemistry issue, which it is, but ignore how it became that way.  The altered hormonal balance and neurotransmitters, as well as degeneration of neuro-receptors or failure to synthesize them, is the result of social isolation.

Since this is a piano forum I won't go deeper into this discussion. Much of depression is genetic (yes, there are studies). There's hormonal depression, which is very common in females. What happens to you in your social settings when you are a child can have a big impact as well as some trauma or abnormal situation at any stage of life (IF your prisoners were mentally healthy in the beginning of their solitude, their symptoms are well explained by this).
In your adult life whether you get depressed (as a disease, not a figure of speech) is mainly defined by these factors instead of the quality of your social life. People don't get depressed because they have poor social life, but of course it contributes when a person is already prone to depression (just like with many other diseases). And social life tends to get poorer when depression developes.

"Depression is a result of the lack of social ties. " Such statement simply seems ridiculous to me, knowing of all the research that exists and seeing so many people severely depressed while having a family and active social life.

[outin]

I can give you hundreds of testaments from people that God saved people from killing themselves. I really don't wish to debate this issue though.

I admit I was wrong... (This is a rare occasion)

IF "God" existed, of course it could change the brain chemistry of anyone and so cure all depression. But if it existed, it created depression as well as everything else in the first place so why would it want to? No need to answer, I am quite aware of the explanations  given to this type of dilemma.

I have a principle of NOT discussing religion on internet forums, which I have now broken and feel very much ashamed of myself 

[austinarg]

"Depression is a result of the lack of social ties. " Such statement simply seems ridiculous to me, knowing of all the research that exists and seeing so many people severely depressed while having a family and active social life.

Perhaps a more appropriate definition could be "Depression CAN be a result of the lack of social ties"?

[outin]

Perhaps a more appropriate definition could be "Depression CAN be a result of the lack of social ties"?

That sounds more sensible, although I would still argue that there are other more important contributing factors. And I don't see how this type of reasoning is useful when it comes to helping people with clinical depression or suicidal thoughts.

The suicide rates in my country (by 100000 people/WHO statistics) were 29 males and 10 females in 2011. In US they were 17,7/4,5 respectively. So here this issue is quite well researched and also many measures have been taken in prevention. The rates were much higher in 1990 (49,3/12,4). It seems likely that men's suicides have diminished mainly because of better and more available treatment of mental health problems. The men here don't seem to have more social ties, are not more religious or been offered more therapy, rather the opposite if we believe research. But depression/bipolar disorder is now considered a medically treatable disease and that has made a huge impact on those people who suffer from it. It may not be curable with medication but medication can help you survive.

There's also less social stigma now when people are beginning to understand that there are physiological causes instead of just "not having enough social ties". I am not happy about the medicalization in our society, quite the opposite, but in severe cases of depression it is warranted by research. Unless we want to let these people suffer and possibly die while offering them advice like seen in this thread. I don't really care what the other contributors in this thread believe and they have their own reasoning. But I feel the need to make these points, because there's always the possibility that someone reading this thread is actually suffering from depression and not getting help for it.

[cpessimist]

outin - it depends who you ask.  Of course psychologists would attribute depression to personal mental health issues, because it is their job to study that.  If you ask a sociologist, he would tell you that depression is the result of a lack of social ties.  There are a lot of factors that go into suicides and suicide rates, and I think you are overly ignoring social influences in favor of psychological ones (to be fair, I studied sociology, so... bias).  If depression is purely natural and genetic, why do the suicide rates vary from country to country...?

[m1469]

Love you all xoxoxo.

 

I tend to believe there is a kind of Orchestration about life which includes our interaction with other people, though I don't claim to understand it.  I definitely think that people serve a purpose in each other's lives.  Sometimes that's in the form of being "angels", I think.  Sometimes in ways that don't immediately seem positive, too.  There are a couple of times where it seems I made a definite mark in people's lives in the ways that you are speaking of, LIW; one was fairly positive for me, one was not.  In both cases, I looked within myself and had to deal with what I saw.  As far as I know, both individuals are still around today, though I am in contact with one and not the other.  The one I am in contact with has had huge ups and downs, but seems to be in the most positive place in her life that I have ever seen her.  I also know of individuals who decided to move along from this experience.  I don't judge them, but I don't think they have exactly escaped anything, either, and I tend to believe they would still need to work the things out which they were working on here.

There are certainly amazing people within my own life who have made an immeasurable difference in my life, I can see that.  I can also see that no matter what, there will always be more to discover, more to learn, more ways in which to grow.  Sometimes that's very daunting, scary, and seemingly overwhelming.  Since I ultimately believe we don't have much choice about it, though, I don't tend to feel there is a true escape from it.  Bittersweetness, right there.

[outin]

outin - it depends who you ask.  Of course psychologists would attribute depression to personal mental health issues, because it is their job to study that.  If you ask a sociologist, he would tell you that depression is the result of a lack of social ties.  There are a lot of factors that go into suicides and suicide rates, and I think you are overly ignoring social influences in favor of psychological ones (to be fair, I studied sociology, so... bias).  If depression is purely natural and genetic, why do the suicide rates vary from country to country...?

I's a bit funny you should say this, since f_d is a psychologist and I am a sociologist

We should not confuse psychology and psychiatry (as medical science). I am talking about depression as a clinical disease, not what people often refer to when they talk about depression (feeling low).

Did I say depression is purely natural and genetic? But indeed many genetic diseases DO vary from country to country, and it should be quite clear why.

[cpessimist]

Grrr I can't figure out how to quote, but outin, it is funny that you seem to have reversed roles!

I should have worded my question differently as it seems that I implied you had said that depression is genetic.  "How do you explain the variance of depression from country to country?" was more what I was going after.  Also, what do you mean hahaha?  You say "and it should be quite clear why." as if it were actually quite clear why diseases vary from country to country, but I don't know if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.

Also, I'm a bit confused by your distinction between psychology and psychiatry.  If you could explain a bit more what you were getting at I'd appreciate it.

[outin]

Grrr I can't figure out how to quote, but outin, it is funny that you seem to have reversed roles!

I should have worded my question differently as it seems that I implied you had said that depression is genetic.  "How do you explain the variance of depression from country to country?" was more what I was going after.  Also, what do you mean hahaha?  You say "and it should be quite clear why." as if it were actually quite clear why diseases vary from country to country, but I don't know if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.

I think there are too many factors that may explain the variation of depression from country to country for me to explain here. There's plenty of research though.

If I understood you correctly you implied that the fact that depression varies so much from country to country would somehow mean it couldn't have strong genetic basis. That would make little sense, since genetic factors (and diseases) do indeed vary from country to country for the obvious reason: Certain genes have accumulated on geographical regions for a long time.

Also, I'm a bit confused by your distinction between psychology and psychiatry.  If you could explain a bit more what you were getting at I'd appreciate it.

Psychology is a science that studies mental functions and behavior in humans.

Psychiatry is the field of medical science specializing on mental disorders, such as depression.

[faulty_damper]

As a psychologist (the scientist, not the therapist), I despise psychiatry.  They see mental diseases as without cause or attribute it to a genetic or medical issue.  As a result, drugs are prescribed as a band-aid.  Patients start to feel better, stop taking their medication, and crash back into depression.

My closest friend's son was bipolar manic depressive.  He was prescribed medication, started feeling good, stopped taking them, and crashed so hard he attempted suicide.  His mom was in denial about why he was bipolar; she ignored what I told her about his social problems and wanted to accept that it was out of her son's control - it was a medical issue.  She ignored what I said because it directly implicated her as a contributing factor.  But denial is part of the problem.

If I look at his social support system, he didn't have a genuine one.  His mother was in denial and couldn't see that she was a contributing factor (even when he screamed at her that she was a bad mother), he didn't have real friends (though he had plenty of people he could kick it with), and his recent marriage to a woman who, imo, just wanted a father for her children from a previous relationship.  His entire life was fake.

With no genuine social support system, living in a fake world, coupled with his propensity for substance abuse (his biological father also had a substance abuse problem), he fell into a cycle of manic depression.


As for his mother, my closest friend, she no longer talks to me.  She doesn't want to hear what I have to say because she doesn't want to hear the truth.  To her, her son's manic depression and suicide attempts are a medical issue.

[faulty_damper]

Of course psychologists would attribute depression to personal mental health issues, because it is their job to study that.

There are two kinds of psychologists, the therapist/counselor and the scientist.  The therapist/counselor thinks of it as a personal health issue that can be treated with counseling/therapy.  The scientist thinks it is a social issue because their is much more evidence to suggest that this is the case than for depression to arise spontaneously.

[outin]

As a psychologist (the scientist, not the therapist), I despise psychiatry.  They see mental diseases as without cause or attribute it to a genetic or medical issue.  As a result, drugs are prescribed as a band-aid.  Patients start to feel better, stop taking their medication, and crash back into depression.

I understand why you feel this way. But it's not really psychiatry that is the problem but the general problems in the health care system. Even if treatment requires both drugs and therapy, the patient is only given drugs because it's cheaper than therapy and no proper aftercare is given. It is a bit better here where health care is provided to everyone and even more expensive treatments are available in the public health care system.

I also have a close friend and a close relative who are bipolar. They were both given drugs when they were diagnosed, but also long term therapy and both are a lot better now. Of course they have had problems in their personal life, but they have never been socially isolated, they are active people with a family. Their medication has been checked at least once a year and one is still going to therapy and the goal is that she can keep on working and not have to retire early because of her illness.

Not all depression responds well to drugs so they are definitely not the only answer, but they can really help.

EDIT:
I have never seen any research suggesting that it's common to get severely bipolar simply because of life conditions without predisposing inborn (or very early developed) changes in brain chemistry. I'll be happy to read some if you know of any studies. Usually people have been bipolar a long time before they were diagnosed. Depression in some form I agree can hit almost anyone, but it is clear that some people are far more likely than others. There's already gene research suggesting that there are genes that predispose to depression.

[faulty_damper]

Here's an article published today which also states my points in this thread, which are that social isolation - not having friendships or relations with family - is the cause of depression.  The article refers specifically to teenagers, who have the highest rates of suicide next to the elderly, though the research can be applied to any age group.  Note that the elderly also have high rates of suicide, due to the lack of social connection because their companions die off.

Researchers Outline Effective Strategies to Prevent Teen Depression and Suicide
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121115162132.htm

EDIT:
I have never seen any research suggesting that it's common to get severely bipolar simply because of life conditions without predisposing inborn (or very early developed) changes in brain chemistry. I'll be happy to read some if you know of any studies. Usually people have been bipolar a long time before they were diagnosed. Depression in some form I agree can hit almost anyone, but it is clear that some people are far more likely than others. There's already gene research suggesting that there are genes that predispose to depression.

I'm not aware of any research into bipolar manic depression as a social symptom.  As far as I've read, it is considered a medical issue and as a result, it is not investigated as a social one.

I guess I can speak about bipolar manic depression from my personal experience with it.  I'm not diagnosed with it (as I've never seen a psychiatrist) but my symptoms are textbook descriptions.  My closest friend has a son who is diagnosed with it, and she thinks that I have it too, though not severely.  I will also attempt to explain why the manic episodes occur.

The depressive stage is the most frequent and stable of the two.  The severity can range from lethargy to thoughts of suicide.  However, actually feeling bad to the point where I can say it is depression is not often, even though I know I am in a state of depression.  No one knows that I am depressed, not even friends or family.  They think I'm joking when I tell them I will buy a gun and shoot myself in the head, after laying a tarp to keep my brains from making a mess too difficult to clean without professional help.  Falling on my head and splitting my skull open isn't dramatic enough. 

The manic phase is short and infrequent with bursts of optimism and the belief that I can do anything within reason based on my assessments of my abilities.  Incredible bursts of creativity can occur but that depends on what resources I have at hand to express it.  If the resources are available, I will engage in it.  If not, then I just go off in my imagination.

This manic phase is a period where I don't feel any self-doubt.  I think this occurs when the parts of my brain that are responsible for the cause of my depression simply go to sleep.*  When it goes to sleep, I am released and the manic phase, which has been very well rested, comes out.  The brain functions as either excitatory or inhibitory and the depression functions as inhibitory.

* Research shows that the brain does not necessarily go to sleep altogether and that different parts can sleep at different times, even when fully awake.  Also, parts of the brain will sleep after significant neural load, such as after a hard practice session at the piano.

[outin]

Here's an article published today which also states my points in this thread, which are that social isolation - not having friendships or relations with family - is the cause of depression.  The article refers specifically to teenagers, who have the highest rates of suicide next to the elderly, though the research can be applied to any age group.  Note that the elderly also have high rates of suicide, due to the lack of social connection because their companions die off.

Researchers Outline Effective Strategies to Prevent Teen Depression and Suicide
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121115162132.htm

There's a big problem in using scientific research to prove a point in a discussion. Research only answers the specific question that is asked (I am sure you have studied methodology enough to know this). Second, to understand how the results can be applied requires you to actually read through the original research article, not something that has been written about it. Because much of the relevant information is always left out when the research results are presented to a general public. Not to deceive people, but because of practical reasons. Who would like to read about the results with a huge list of restrictions on how it can actually be applied. Normal people like things to be simple.

So I have no access to the original article now, but what I read is their research indicates that "... the key component to effective depression/suicide prevention is the development of positive social and emotional connections among teens and supportive adults." This is NOT the same thing as "social isolation - not having friendships or relations with family - is the cause of depression". I'm sure you see the logical fault in that.

But it is true that a certain type of teenage depression is considered a specific issue, where probably the social component play a larger role compared to clinical depression in general. I guess my reference groups is a bit older so that has an impact on my views.

[faulty_damper]

I'm using the recent article mostly to highlight how it is social isolation that causes depression.  I know it doesn't use "social isolation" but my views are based on the research that the article is summarizing.  As you said, it would be pointless to cite dozens of scientific articles when only social scientists would be able to understand them.

Teenage depression is always discussed in the psychological literature as a social issue.  Rejection by peers is the direct cause, as are family issues which make children feel isolated.  The common underlying theme is social isolation.  Just to clarify, social isolation means lack of emotional connections, not physical proximity to others.

In psychiatry, it's discussed as a "chemical/hormonal imbalance".  It sounds like the reason for depression, and it is, but it is an intermediate cause of depression, not the direct cause.  What's nice about this explanation is that the blame for depression is something like a cold you catch.  You'll get better if you take these drugs.  However, just like a cold, drugs only treats the symptoms, not the cause.

That chemical/hormonal imbalance is actually caused by social isolation.  Social isolation, for some reason, causes certain genes to turn off and other genes to turn on which leads to a chemical/hormonal imbalance.  The net effect is impaired brain function.  This phenomenon had been documented in rats, monkeys, and birds long before it was linked in humans.

What's interesting about depression is that when these genes turn off and on, a depressed mother or sperm donor can pass these epigenetic changes onto the offspring.  The offspring will then be more likely to suffer from depression and other medical issues as a result.  This may be the reason why depression runs in families.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Whether or not you believe in a god has nothing to do with this.

[oxy60]

Back, way back when I was in school we learned how to talk in out with patients, either Freudian or non-directive because there were no drugs. Recently, I got into a discussion with the head of the department who said, "yeah, back in your day is was bla, bla , bla. Now we all know it is chemical."

What we really know is that all this is a work in progress. 50 years from now something new will be discovered and you will be looked upon as being just as primitive as me.

I never entered the field.

[faulty_damper]

Rates of depression are sky high in the developed modern world.  In traditional societies, it is non-existent.  How can this disparity be explained?

From American natives prior to being pushed out, rates of depression was non-existent.  Now, rates of depression and the resultant suicides among American natives are disproportionately high compared to all other groups.  Alcohol and substance abuse is sky high as well.  Clearly, the genetics couldn't have changed much in a just couple of centuries but what did change was the social perspective.  They were literally taken off the land and placed in reservations, treated like savages, and other ills.  They are outcasts on the same land they've lived.  With such a low standing in this country, is it any wonder why depression and suicide is so high amongst American natives?

[oxy60]

Rates of depression are sky high in the developed modern world.  In traditional societies, it is non-existent.  How can this disparity be explained?

From American natives prior to being pushed out, rates of depression was non-existent.  Now, rates of depression and the resultant suicides among American natives are disproportionately high compared to all other groups.  Alcohol and substance abuse is sky high as well.  Clearly, the genetics couldn't have changed much in a just couple of centuries but what did change was the social perspective.  They were literally taken off the land and placed in reservations, treated like savages, and other ills.  They are outcasts on the same land they've lived.  With such a low standing in this country, is it any wonder why depression and suicide is so high amongst American natives?

That is an interesting hypothesis. However not supported by current circumstances.

I live amongst some 50 Indian tribes. I meet them regularly. I eat in their restaurants, gamble in their casinos, and buy in their outlet centers. They sponsor all sorts of music and sporting events. They even buy up major hotels off reservation that have no possibility of a casino installation.

Never once can I remember anyone speaking about suicide or any of the other points you raise.

[faulty_damper]

From the CDC and Prevention website:

"Suicide affects all youth, but some groups are at higher risk than others. Boys are more likely than girls to die from suicide. Of the reported suicides in the 10 to 24 age group, 81% of the deaths were males and 19% were females. Girls, however, are more likely to report attempting suicide than boys. Cultural variations in suicide rates also exist, with Native American/Alaskan Native youth having the highest rates of suicide-related fatalities.  A nationwide survey of youth in grades 9–12 in public and private schools in the U.S. found Hispanic youth were more likely to report attempting suicide than their black and white, non-Hispanic peers."

https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pub/youth_suicide.html

For a graph of suicide rates by race/ethnicities:
https://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/suicide/statistics/rates01.html

[oxy60]

The statistics stand however you were giving a reason FOR the statistics. Remember correlation does not prove causation!

[faulty_damper]

People who are happy and content do not kill themselves.  People who are happy and content have good relationships with those around them.  It's not money that brings happiness (based on decades of research) but social connections with friends, family, and community.  Social connections bring happiness.

People who lack social connections are usually unhappy and depressed.  Depression can lead to suicide.

I was not giving a reason based on those statistics, btw.  I was giving a reason based on social factors which have been linked to suicide.  Currently, no studies have definitively linked social isolation to suicide, though they strongly suggest that this is the case.  This is based on reading thousands of articles on the topic and related areas.  It would be very creative of me to come to any other conclusion than the one I came to.

The role of social isolation in suicide
Abstract
This paper reviews the literature which relates to the role of social isolation in suicide. Major areas include theories on suicide and social isolation, measures of social isolation, and empirical studies which concern the relationship of social isolation to suicide. Social isolation seems to be related to suicidal behaviors in a direct and fundamental way. Implications for helping contacts and the community are addressed."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7361340

[edit]Also, it would be unethical to directly test the theory that social isolation leads to suicide because it requires subjects to be placed in isolation so they kill themselves.   If you are in the control group, YAY!  If you are in the experimental group... [/edit]

[faulty_damper]

OMG!  I just found out there is an academic journal called: Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior.  An entire journal dedicated to suicide...

It's published by the American Association of Suicidology.  That's amazing, suicidology trips up the spellchecker! LOL.  The journal dates back all the way to 1971.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/journal/10.1111/(ISSN)1943-278X/issues

[oxy60]

Let us never forget that we are dealing with an ever changing society with people changing their lifestyles continuously. I know people in all sorts of circumstances with all kinds of thoughts. Some are successful in killing themselves. We'd love to stop it but it seems the harder we try the more determined they become.

I've come to the conclusion that one either loves life or loves death.

[faulty_damper]

I've come to the conclusion that one either loves life or loves death.

One either has the love of others or has no love of his/her own.  With love = life.  Without love = depression and death.

[thalbergmad]

I have almost given up trying to top myself.

Can't seem to do it right.

Thal

[Derek]

Is depression usually a chronic thing that never goes away? I sometimes have bouts of depression that last 3 or 4 days or so, but they typically clear up. I know that eating sugary snacks can cause it, and I think there may be a couple of other dietary causes. I'm pretty certain what I experience is not the usual blues as I have some intensely negative thoughts at these times which actually disturb me pretty deeply. But I have nothing in my life to be sad about that affects me directly. So...there must be some external cause. My new year's resolution is going to be trying to figure out what those are. Maybe I'll keep some sort of diet diary. Right now I'm trying to avoid dairy food.

The difference between being depressed and not is like night and day. When I'm depressed, I don't feel like doing anything or engaging with anything---everything is a struggle. I usually am much too stubborn to admit that I'm depressed, and usually my family members are too and declare that I am happy. But...I'm starting to take this issue more seriously now.

lostinidlewonder---I have a weird relationship with God. I grew up with agnostic but sympathetic-with-Christianity parents so I am sort of on again off again with the traditional "pray and pursue a personal relationship with God." I feel like maybe I'd make more sense as a Catholic where God seems more removed from a personal relationship, haha. And other times I feel like there's not much added value to verbally praying since God knows my heart anyway and that I wish well for my loved ones etc. I dunno. It's definitely a journey. I know I could never be atheist though.

[forte88]

If you imagine someone who lives a life without connections, no friends or understanding family, what is the purpose of living?

You've described me perfectly, however I don't agree with your conclusion. I think it's on a level slightly higher than the usual marketing talk: You only need this car/house/loan to be happy; but not much. It's the gabble that used to depress coz I believed that you're for example dependent on a girlfriend/wife for happiness or that you're a sad person when you live in solitude.
Believing this makes you depressed.
The truth however is that the source of happiness is inside yourself. Do you need someone to tell you to do what you enjoy doing? Can you only do something if you're validated/enjoy prestige for it?

I actually feel sorry for those who I used to envy, burdened with so much responsibility. I feel very fortunate to be living the life I love living.
What's the purpose of life? Have a psychedelic experience and even if you thought there wasn't one before, even if you're a straightlaced scientist, you'll find you make your own meaning. If you can only find meaning with friends family then I guess you have as little love for yourself as you'd suppose depressed people have

[faulty_damper]

Is depression usually a chronic thing that never goes away? I sometimes have bouts of depression that last 3 or 4 days or so, but they typically clear up. I know that eating sugary snacks can cause it, and I think there may be a couple of other dietary causes. I'm pretty certain what I experience is not the usual blues as I have some intensely negative thoughts at these times which actually disturb me pretty deeply. But I have nothing in my life to be sad about that affects me directly. So...there must be some external cause. My new year's resolution is going to be trying to figure out what those are. Maybe I'll keep some sort of diet diary. Right now I'm trying to avoid dairy food.

This is not clinical depression.  Clinical depression lasts for months or years.  What you describe sounds like nutrient deficiencies, which can induce depression-like symptoms.  If your diet consists of few nutrients that are abundant in vegetables, then you may suffer from these symptoms.  I do.  The cure for me is to eat more vegetables and I'll notice an immediate improvement the next day.  Also, my skin just glows if I eat a nutrient-rich diet.

[Derek]

This is not clinical depression.  Clinical depression lasts for months or years.  What you describe sounds like nutrient deficiencies, which can induce depression-like symptoms.  If your diet consists of few nutrients that are abundant in vegetables, then you may suffer from these symptoms.  I do.  The cure for me is to eat more vegetables and I'll notice an immediate improvement the next day.  Also, my skin just glows if I eat a nutrient-rich diet.

I'm already eating a ton of salad almost every day. I think it must be some sort of severe food allergy that I never really became aware of. I'm going to endeavor to determine the precise causes over the coming months. But yes I don't suppose I actually have clinical depression, as the "bouts" I have usually do clear up.

[outin]

I'm already eating a ton of salad almost every day. I think it must be some sort of severe food allergy that I never really became aware of. I'm going to endeavor to determine the precise causes over the coming months. But yes I don't suppose I actually have clinical depression, as the "bouts" I have usually do clear up.

Sounds a lot like PMS but I guess in your case that would be quite far fetched

[Derek]

Sounds a lot like PMS but I guess in your case that would be quite far fetched

Oh I dunno, I joke with my wife sometimes about having a male period. I feel like I've even heard there are studies to suggest that men have a cycle that can affect mood in some cases. Or maybe my wife just rubs off on me so to speak.

[outin]

Oh I dunno, I joke with my wife sometimes about having a male period. I feel like I've even heard there are studies to suggest that men have a cycle that can affect mood in some cases. Or maybe my wife just rubs off on me so to speak.

A case of sympathetic depression then?

I get this weird depression every month. It's weird because I am not at all prone to depression, I think I am too agressive for that. It comes suddenly and goes away as suddenly. But when it hits for a moment I can understand a bit how it would be to be really depressed and I can imagine why the long term concequences can be so severe.

[Derek]

A case of sympathetic depression then?

It's possible, though it doesn't always happen at the same time that my wife is feeling blue. She doesn't seem to get the blues quite as intensely as I do. Mine turn into "the world is ending" whereas with her she just gets more annoyed than usual with my inability to smooth out the dish towel.

[outin]

Mine turn into "the world is ending" whereas with her she just gets more annoyed than usual with my inability to smooth out the dish towel.

Well, I guess there's still some time until you start suffering from the symptoms on menopause 

[oxy60]

There could be a dietary component, so be sure to eat a balanced diet. Don't try to fill in the gaps with pills. This thing called the food pyramid  should be checked out. Especially those of you who could be in for a very rough winter.

The guy who has the monthly blues should realize that he was never promised a rose garden. Those blue thoughts will come to anybody who is living a full and rich life.

[Derek]

There could be a dietary component, so be sure to eat a balanced diet. Don't try to fill in the gaps with pills. This thing called the food pyramid  should be checked out. Especially those of you who could be in for a very rough winter.

The guy who has the monthly blues should realize that he was never promised a rose garden. Those blue thoughts will come to anybody who is living a full and rich life.

Perhaps, but I feel that what I experience is significantly worse than normal blues. So...I'm gonna do what I can to correct it. Maybe I'm wrong and I'll just have to live with it, but the sort of thoughts that go through my head at those times are just not something I think someone should have to tolerate. Hence my concern.

[faulty_damper]

About the salad thing...

Salads are "healthy" junk food.  A person can eat salad every day but not absorb the nutrients.  This is because it's not cooked, thus making digesting of the vegetable matter difficult.  Combined with the fact that most people don't chew raw vegetables enough before swallowing, it can pass through the digestive tract relatively undigested.

Cooked food, oth, makes the nutrients much more available for absorption.  This is because cooking can be viewed as predigestion, breaking apart the cellular membrane and thus allowing the contents to be absorbed.

How much do you chew raw vegetables?  If you watch gorillas eat their "salad", they take several hours per day of careful chewing before swallowing.

[faulty_damper]

Oh, I forgot to mention that fat is vital for proper cognitive functioning.  Without it, people can feel mentally sluggish, among other things.  So if you are avoiding fat, this may not be very healthy for you.

[outin]

Perhaps, but I feel that what I experience is significantly worse than normal blues. So...I'm gonna do what I can to correct it. Maybe I'm wrong and I'll just have to live with it, but the sort of thoughts that go through my head at those times are just not something I think someone should have to tolerate. Hence my concern.

I have a lot of food allergies and they certainly don't cause depression. I you have no other symptoms I'd say you can forget about that. But blood sugar imbalance can cause mood changes, I can be very irritable if my blood sugar is too low. But that would hardly last for days if you are not on some weird diet.
How's the quality of your sleep? Do you get enough?

[faulty_damper]

Too much sugar intake leads to hyperglycemia and can make you feel depressed.  If you drink a lot of soda, this can be the problem.

[lostinidlewonder]

...I have a weird relationship with God. I grew up with agnostic but sympathetic-with-Christianity parents so I am sort of on again off again with the traditional "pray and pursue a personal relationship with God." I feel like maybe I'd make more sense as a Catholic where God seems more removed from a personal relationship, haha. And other times I feel like there's not much added value to verbally praying since God knows my heart anyway and that I wish well for my loved ones etc. I dunno. It's definitely a journey. I know I could never be atheist though.

Hi Derek, I didn't really want to talk about God as such, just that it's my own powerful belief that God has been a giant protector in my own personal life journey. I think the greatest power of prayer is in sincerity and urgency. We don't pray for an outcome but rather pray that we will be ready or patient/strong enough to wait/deal with what happens. Like yourself I have powerful feeling in my heart for my loved ones but sometimes the feeling is so overwhelming or there is a challenge facing us that no human can solve, then we feel urgency to pray and ask the big man upstairs to look after us and help us out. Sometimes keeping the emotion within us we need to release it, I find I can do that with piano playing, being with family etc, but sometimes when you are alone you need to be able to share this emotional power only with a higher power. I have turned to him so often, I don't know what I would do without him, probably go downhill quite badly. It would be wonderful if everyone had this because I know some people feel totally alone and unloved.

I find it also highly spiritually uplifting to pray for people that I have bad feelings about and going against my nature and asking for forgiveness that I didn't handle the situation as best as I could. This is hard to pray about because your very self is stubborn and wants to stamp the foot and fold the arms, but its very stress relieving when you can do it. I don't do it as often as I should because I'm quite imperfect as everyone else and often think my way is the right way, but we need to humble ourselves and not judge others but try to immediately forgive them even though our negative human reaction goes against it.


I think we ALL suffer depression at some point in time, some can shake it off and continue on with life but many of us are wounded by it and it takes time and some suffer deep wounds, some get infections and have to battle with it constantly. It is important to listen to your body and notice when you are feeling up and down. We need to talk with positive people, the correct people who will not pull us down, we need to do activities which keeps us busy and focused because as they say the devil gives idle hands work.

Depression can be a terminal disease, it still kills so many people around the world. Under-funding for for mental health is a world wide problem even in the most developed countries.


 

[forte88]

I can see how prayer could help. Prayer is like meditation or mantra, it focusses the mind (minddiscipline) and keeps one in the moment(the only reality is the present moment).
I don't know if depression is a disease. Just like religion and advertising, pharmaceutical companies have a stake in people believing they're dependent on something outside of themselves to be happy. Also, with synthetic drugs, it's putting something in your body that is foreign and it effects your body on a physical level while the problem is psychological....So to mask the symptoms it affects a lot more than just your psychology.
They would argue that your body is lacking those chemicals, when it reality it's psychology that's depressing the levels. And by adding those chemicals they only upset the chemical inbalance in the body even more. So to counter that the patient has to take other chemicals which the pharmaceutical companies happily provide.

IMO a lot of 'psychiatric' diseases can be overcome by abovementioned techniques. What's missing in a lot of the multitasking/scatterbrained individuals of today is minddiscipline. Thus their thinking becomes distorted.
Also in a society that claims you're dependent on something outside of yourself for happiness(Christian tradition?)it isn't strange that people have lost contact with themselves and despite being more prosperous than ever before are utterly miserable

[oxy60]

To do anything well we need to learn the basics. We happily learn to hit and catch, or to block and tackle to play a sport but we ignore the basics of living. Eating is probably the most ignored and most of us give very little thought to a balanced diet.

Remember you are what you eat!

[forte88]

I don't know, people in India don't get depressed eating next to nothing. Depression is a state of mind and has a psychological cause. IMO most mental illness(at many believe physical illness has psychosomatic roots as well) results from lack of discipline, yet people don't get taught this at school coz school's all about reinforcing the dependency loop