Alkan: Symphony for Solo Piano. HELP!!!!

[j_menz]

OK, I have most of this in some sort of manageable state and can see how to get to where I want.  Or that light is an oncoming train... keep you posted.

Two exceptions are bugging the heck out of me:

1.  How do I do the tremolos in the second bar? I just can't reach without hitting other notes, it's too fast to jump and rolling sounds horrible.  Am I missing some obvious (or otherwise) fingering or trick?



2. In the pic below, the one I can't get is the fourth one. The db, d, db' figure. Suggestions (besides curling up and having a good cry - tried that; didn't help). Note, the odd squiggle underneath is actually a tie - I've cut and pasted across a line break.

[faulty_damper]

1. You can try rotating the forearm to reach for the G.  If you rotate, you'll notice that the reach of 5 increases a bit.  Rotate the opposite direction to play the chord.

2.  I use the tip of the thumb to depress the front face of the black key (D-flat), not the top.  The same thumb tip depresses the D natural.  It's pretty easy to do but requires practice to get the aim right.

[j_menz]

Thanks.

1. You can try rotating the forearm to reach for the G.  If you rotate, you'll notice that the reach of 5 increases a bit.  Rotate the opposite direction to play the chord.

Tried that, but still get too many stray notes.  It's not really the reach for 5 that's the issue, its the middle ones; keeping them accurate.

2.  I use the tip of the thumb to depress the front face of the black key (D-flat), not the top.  The same thumb tip depresses the D natural.  It's pretty easy to do but requires practice to get the aim right.

Db is held, D has to go to Eb. There are three distinct voices happening here and it sticks out if you don't hold the Db or if you do hold the D. Light pedal as well might work with that so will see what I can manage. Maybe roll the thumb back onto just the Db? I'll give it a try. 

[faulty_damper]

Db is held, D has to go to Eb. There are three distinct voices happening here and it sticks out if you don't hold the Db or if you do hold the D. Light pedal as well might work with that so will see what I can manage. Maybe roll the thumb back onto just the Db? I'll give it a try.

I hold the pedal for the duration of the beat so I don't worry about it.  It sounds better with pedal.

As for 1, I have experimented with simply dropping notes because even I can't play it perfectly.  Try dropping the F since the 7th sounds important.

[j_menz]

I hold the pedal for the duration of the beat so I don't worry about it.  It sounds better with pedal.

As for 1, I have experimented with simply dropping notes because even I can't play it perfectly.  Try dropping the F since the 7th sounds important.

I, sadly, prefer it with minimum pedal. May have to get over that.

I'll try dropping the f, or maybe alternating the f and the Ab, or maybe the C.

[black_keys]

If you can do that tremolo well but the problem is in the jump, then you have to fix the jump not the chords.
You can go slower here to press the right keys , its the standard solution , if it dosent work try rolling the first two semiquaver as one quaver.

For the 2nd situation you can simply take the "D natural - Eb" with wour left hand (I dont know the tempo here) ,but if its not possible, faulty_damper idea is good you can press the D + the front face of the black key with you thumb, then try to depress the D natural by rotating your thumb but still pressing the Db.I didnt try that before , but i've seen that kind of chords in a Debussy prelude (a D natural + D# octaves with your left hand).

[gaidheal]

Another option for the second of your difficulties is instead of attempting a risky precision maneuver with the tip of the thumb depressing two notes, you can place the tip of the thumb between the two black notes, and use the area above the thumbnail to lean over and press the d flat.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

J Menz asking for help? 

You're a freaking professional pianist!  Get it together man...

[davidjosepha]

J Menz asking for help? 

When I saw this topic, I thought it was a joke at first. Yep. J_menz.

Also, please tell me that the music you're working off of isn't the same as the music you posted here...how can you read that?

[j_menz]

J Menz asking for help? 

You're a freaking professional pianist!  Get it together man...

Even were that true, I suspect I would still have moments like this.

When I saw this topic, I thought it was a joke at first. Yep. J_menz.

Also, please tell me that the music you're working off of isn't the same as the music you posted here...how can you read that?

Not the same, but if you've seen the score you would know the same question would apply even when the score is printed with crystal clarity. The one I'm working off is Dover, so quite similar (though a bit clearer) and with a few additional issues.

And thanks for the suggestions all - it's starting to work. 

[chopin2015]

Thanks.

Tried that, but still get too many stray notes.  It's not really the reach for 5 that's the issue, its the middle ones; keeping them accurate.

Db is held, D has to go to Eb. There are three distinct voices happening here and it sticks out if you don't hold the Db or if you do hold the D. Light pedal as well might work with that so will see what I can manage. Maybe roll the thumb back onto just the Db? I'll give it a try. 

if you go slower and lift your hand more, do you hit less notes? I find that I make more mistakes if I hold notes to play slurs and legato and such, but just use the pedal more. I know this is really obvious, but just try disconnecting more with your hands and use your ears more?

[j_menz]

if you go slower and lift your hand more, do you hit less notes? I find that I make more mistakes if I hold notes to play slurs and legato and such, but just use the pedal more. I know this is really obvious, but just try disconnecting more with your hands and use your ears more?

Did you even read the question before posting that?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Do you have small hands Menz?

[j_menz]

Do you have small hands Menz?

Are you telling me you can comfortably reach the two bits in question?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Are you telling me you can comfortably reach the two bits in question?

I wasn't telling you that, I was just asking you a question.

But now that you brought it up, I actually can reach those with little stress.   

[chopin2015]

Did you even read the question before posting that?

yeah you said you were hitting stray notes...I thought I was making a point. Forgive me, Maestro.

[j_menz]

yeah you said you were hitting stray notes...I thought I was making a point. Forgive me, Maestro.

Not "stray", "other". The ones that get in the way.

[j_menz]

I wasn't telling you that, I was just asking you a question.

But now that you brought it up, I actually can reach those with little stress.

I reach a reasonably comfortable tenth and a 2-5 octave.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I reach a reasonably comfortable tenth and a 2-5 octave.

Then what's wrong with the music you're playing?!

Is it the flexibility?

Well I haven't heard it so I wouldn't know how fast you're playing...  But still you would have to be playing pretty damn fast.

[chopin2015]

Oh, the left hand. I see... I did 5 on g and 4  2 1 on the chord ...sucks to be you. I'm sorry, I thought you said treble, and I thought you were referring to the polyphony in the right hand... (facepalm)

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Oh, the left hand. I see... I did 5 on g and 4  2 1 on the chord ...sucks to be you. I'm sorry, I thought you said treble, and I thought you were referring to the polyphony in the right hand... (facepalm)

4?  I did 3.

[j_menz]

Oh, the left hand. I see... I did 5 on g and 4  2 1 on the chord ...sucks to be you.

A flat or A?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

A flat or A?

It's an A flat right?

Anyways for the first one I noticed that I do seem to be in contact with some other keys as well.  So what I would suggest is playing it deep in the keys, as oppose to the edge.

[chopin2015]

4?  I did 3.

I have smaller hands, either way I would have to roll between g and the chord, with 3 I hit extra notes.

[j_menz]

Then what's wrong with the music you're playing?!

Is it the flexibility?

Well I haven't heard it so I wouldn't know how fast you're playing...  But still you would have to be playing pretty damn fast.

Dotted crotchet at about 110-20 - it varies a bit as I haven't settled on a tempo yet.

I don't think it's flexibility, it's stretch.

[chopin2015]

A flat or A?

Im really tired, either way, Id do 4 on c, but you don't have many choices anyways

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Dotted crotchet at about 110-20 - it varies a bit as I haven't settled on a tempo yet.

I don't think it's flexibility, it's stretch.

Yeah I noticed that I'm in contact with other keys as well.  I edited my other post but maybe you didn't read it so I'm gonna say it again.

Try playing deeper in the keys as oppose to the edge.  Because that A flat is a black key and black gets aren't as long as white keys, which is why you have to stretch father than just going to A.  So playing it deeper would allow you not to stretch as much.

[ajspiano]

Not sure how I missed this.

So to clarify, are you saying that its not simple because you can't reach the G C F Ab all together as a unit cleanly?

if you rotate to the chord from the G (feeling beats as written) the chord is probably going to be a mess..  middle notes will be uneven..

has to be grouped chord first? so bounce the chord, C F Ab, omit the G from the equation. Get it going consistently at the rate of the tremolo, as if its on the beat rather than off the beat.

then add a note with the 5th finger, B. Still work as a whole chord, then make that a tremolo, but with the chord on the beat still, somewhat like an inversion of the first bar..  once that's comfortable increase the width of the leap between chord and 5th finger until its down to the G..  this whole bit should still feel like working as a single chord, not a tremolo..  chord first, 5th finger trails behind.. rather than an individual strike


(whole process takes only a short amount of time)

..then put the beat back as written, but still perceive the physical as a chord first, 5th finger second arrangement.. in groups of 2 notes.. so mentally its kind of an offbeat syncopation.. at least until it settles in and you don't have to think about it.

...use brain.. report findings.


alternatively, tell me to shut up because you've already done this kind of experiment... I'll probably try it myself in a little while to check the validity of my comments as a learning tool in this exact situation.

[j_menz]

It's an A flat right?

Anyways for the first one I noticed that I do seem to be in contact with some other keys as well.  So what I would suggest is playing it deep in the keys, as oppose to the edge.

Yes, Ab.

I cant get deep enough to reach without dragging the edges of other keys; at the speed and volume, they sound.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Yes, Ab.

I cant get deep enough to reach without dragging the edges of other keys; at the speed and volume, they sound.

Well then that's all I got.

But if Ajs's post helps you out, then that'll make me really mad.  Because you guys are the same person and if that personality helps you out, then you pretty much knew the answer from the beginning and wasted all of our times.

[j_menz]

Not sure how I missed this.

So to clarify, are you saying that its not simple because you can't reach the G C F Ab all together as a unit cleanly?

Funnily enough, it exists elsewhere exactly as you describe (full chord on the beats). I have no trouble with that bit.

EDIT: there's probably a bit of a roll involved.

[chopin2015]

are there other versions of this that use a different notation in these bars? like Ossia but for left hand?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I have no trouble with that bit.

Good!

[ajspiano]

Funnily enough, it exists elsewhere exactly as you describe (full chord on the beats). I have no trouble with that bit.

Thats my point.

There's a whole section of taubman devoted to this concern. That mentally we have to execute FROM larger note clusters, rather than to them. Even when they are off beat..  you have to at times be able run mental notes groupings contrary to the beat.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Hey Menz can you reach an 11th?  Whether it's comfortable or not.  

Because it would be odd if we had the same reach and I can get it but you can't.

[chopin2015]

finger extensions

[rachmaninoff_forever]

finger extensions

Best idea we have so far.

[j_menz]

Thats my point.

There's a whole section of taubman devoted to this concern. That mentally we have to execute FROM larger note clusters, rather than to them. Even when they are off beat..  you have to at times be able run mental notes groupings contrary to the beat.

OK. That makes sense.

I had a think about it - what do you think about also thinking of the CFAb bit from the C up, rather than the Ab down, which is I think what I'm doing.  Maybe your suggestion leads to that anyway. Will give it a go.

[j_menz]

Hey Menz can you reach an 11th?  Whether it's comfortable or not.  

Because it would be odd if we had the same reach and I can get it but you can't.

I can do a very uncomfortable 11th - I find it more useful/reliable to roll anything more than a tenth.

[j_menz]

finger extensions

I have quite enough trouble with my own.

[chopin2015]

Apparently Marc Hamelin plays this one. He is very nice, you could ask him how he executes these stretches. The performances you listen to, do you absolutely hear people play the score exactly?

[ajspiano]

OK. That makes sense.

I had a think about it - what do you think about also thinking of the CFAb bit from the C up, rather than the Ab down, which is I think what I'm doing.  Maybe your suggestion leads to that anyway. Will give it a go.

hmm..  that would probably allow you to perceive the bar as having a very minimal jump..  in that you're  only dealing with a focus on a leap between G and C, rather than G and Ab..  don't know it that would make it easier overall though. Also, the thumb is generally going to be stronger and more stable than the 4th finger..  thinking from the 4th may highlight a different technical problem?

There's a physical idea that chords should balance toward the thumb..  that maintains the stability of the whole hand, I don't know if thinking a chord from a particular direction would throw that off.. I'd have to try it.

I generally think from certain notes within a chord as a means to control a voice's tone/dynamics, not as a means to a satisfactory physical execution.

[j_menz]

Apparently Marc Hamelin plays this one. He is very nice, you could ask him how he executes these stretches. The performances you listen to, do you absolutely hear people play the score exactly?

I have the Hamelin recording. He hits the notes exactly; Alkan is extremely unforgiving if you don't.

[chopin2015]

But he probably does have big hands and can reach without having to rock his hand back and forth from one end to the other.

[j_menz]

hmm..  that would probably allow you to perceive the bar as having a very minimal jump..  in that you're  only dealing with a focus on a leap between G and C, rather than G and Ab..  don't know it that would make it easier overall though. Also, the thumb is generally going to be stronger and more stable than the 4th finger..  thinking from the 4th may highlight a different technical problem?

A change is as good as a holiday.    Will give it a try and see.

There's a physical idea that chords should balance toward the thumb..  that maintains the stability of the whole hand, I don't know if thinking a chord from a particular direction would throw that off.. I'd have to try it.

If it doesn't look like working, I'll ditch the ides; I do think it's worth a go, though.

I generally think from certain notes within a chord as a means to control a voice's tone/dynamics, not as a means to a satisfactory physical execution.

Agreed, but both can be options and I need to get all the notes in, dropping any just doesn't cut it soundwise and I think I can think the balance seperately from the movement.

[j_menz]

But he probably does have big hands and can reach without having to rock his hand back and forth from one end to the other.

Possibly. Either way, he undoubtedly has a much bigger bag of technical tricks upon which to draw than I do.

[chopin2015]

He played at my college, he played ridiculous music like Rachmaninoff sonatas and the difficult preludes, some atonal music with whole tone stuff and jazz chords and his variations on theme of Paganini were good. If you work on those parts I think it will get easier, not as easy as for those few people who do not have human hands, but I think you might adjust after a little while. 

[faulty_damper]

I've read the replies...

j_menz,
For the tremolos, I've figured out the fingering: 5, 3-2-1.  This finally works for me.  I was using 5, 4-2-1 before which required a slight jump which forbade actual tempo.  5, 3-2-1 requires a lot of stretching and tension but I can do it at tempo.  You'll notice that your wrist rotates counter-clockwise to be able to cover the stretch.

I hope you've reconsidered the use of pedal as it sounds more sonorous and more symphony-like with.  This is my primary concern for this piece, to make it sound like a symphony instead of a piano piece.

[black_keys]

Possibly. Either way, he undoubtedly has a much bigger bag of technical tricks upon which to draw than I do.

The trick is in the big hands he got .

[j_menz]

I've read the replies...

j_menz,
For the tremolos, I've figured out the fingering: 5, 3-2-1.  This finally works for me.  I was using 5, 4-2-1 before which required a slight jump which forbade actual tempo.  5, 3-2-1 requires a lot of stretching and tension but I can do it at tempo.  You'll notice that your wrist rotates counter-clockwise to be able to cover the stretch.

Yeah, I think 321 is right, but I'm hoping I can jump it a bit to avoid the stretch.

I hope you've reconsidered the use of pedal as it sounds more sonorous and more symphony-like with.  This is my primary concern for this piece, to make it sound like a symphony instead of a piano piece.

Yep, pedal is down here - it's the other bit where I'd prefer not to use it.