Realistic goals for a Late Starter

[opus10no2]

As a late starter, I'm unusually ambitious, although I suspect a fair few on this forum are the same.
My goal is not to actually be a concert pianist, but to be able to perform at such a level that I could pass as one.
I strongly believe I can acquire the required technical skill with time and dedication, but at the same time feel disheartened by the limitations of the quantity of repertoire that I may be capable of amassing.
I suppose I have to be extremely selective regarding which pieces I set myself the task of learning.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this situation? and are there others out there in the same boat?   

[outin]

As a late starter, I'm unusually ambitious, although I suspect a fair few on this forum are the same.
My goal is not to actually be a concert pianist, but to be able to perform at such a level that I could pass as one.
I strongly believe I can acquire the required technical skill with time and dedication, but at the same time feel disheartened by the limitations of the quantity of repertoire that I may be capable of amassing.
I suppose I have to be extremely selective regarding which pieces I set myself the task of learning.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this situation? and are there others out there in the same boat?   

You forgot to mention what you mean by late starter (like 15 or 55?)...

I have this ridiculous desire to be able to play like a pro even though I have absolutely no desire to be one, quite the opposite... I think if I manage to acquire good technique and better reading skills by the time I retire (which should be in 20 years or so), I should have plenty of time to learn a lot of repertoire, nothing to do but play the piano all day long

[j_menz]

at the same time feel disheartened by the limitations of the quantity of repertoire that I may be capable of amassing.
I suppose I have to be extremely selective regarding which pieces I set myself the task of learning.

That is a sad fact of life, regardless of whether you start at 5 or 105.

[brogers70]

Some people would consider anyone who started after age 5 to be a late starter. I started at 40; now I'm 54. I've worked hard at it and can play most of the Schubert Impromptus, a few Brahms Intermezzi, a good number of Haydn and Mozart Sonatas,  a couple of the less difficult Beethoven Sonatas, Op 10/1, 14/1; and several of the P&F from Bach's WTC. Now that I've retired and can practice 3-4 hours/day, I don't see why, after another 10 years, I shouldn't work myself up to playing much of the WTC, and some of the more difficult (but not "transcendental") Beethoven Sonatas, ones like Les Adieux.

I don't worry about all the stuff I'll never be able to play, because there's already lots of great music that's technically feasible for me. I'd say just keep on playing as much as you can and see where it takes you.

[perprocrastinate]

Quote from a message I sent someone a while ago regarding this:

No worries, I've read far longer rants than yours. In fact, your message wasn't even a rant in comparison.

And about the 'being compared' thing, I don't you should worry about those prodigies. Some people start earlier, and show excellence earlier than others, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they will have a higher potential than you in the end. Motivation is good!

I used to worry about not being able to reach anywhere close to a virtuoso standard (even though I only hope to play piano as an amateur), being a "late start", and seeing those 6-year-olds on YouTube that could play Chopin Etudes (and later, those 11-year-olds who could play Petrouchka). But then I realized that moping about that wouldn't solve anything. This past month my obsession to get better sort of died down, but still with an equal amount of motivation. I realized that if I just tried my best, then maybe someday I will reach somewhere remotely close to a virtuoso standard. If not, I'll just be happy with where I am.

What the heck? How did I get here? I didn't plan on sending you a rant back. Now you have to read it. I'm so evil.

To add on to that, I believe that it doesn't matter where you start (for the most part), it's how you take on the opportunity of actually starting to learn how to play the piano. Early starters may have an advantage, but to reemphasize from the quote, that doesn't necessarily mean that they will have a higher potential than you in the end or in overall development.

[virtuoso80]

The enemy of all late starters is time, and I don't mean because you're more likely to die earlier. I mean that adults have families, jobs, kids, etc. In addition, most of us lose a bit of energy and ability to learn new things as we become, 'set in our ways'.

The good news is, the idea of 'having it' is largely a myth. Put in the practice, and you will see results. Your capability is probably pretty high, but realize that 99% of people will not go anywhere near that capability, because they don't have the consistency, obsessive focus, and willingness to sacrifice other aspects of their life necessary to get there.

[sevencircles]

Try improvisation for a change. I am a latestarter for sure and I realised that itīs a lot more likely that I will become a good improviser then a good classical pianist. Many peope donīt realise that untill they try it.

[wiggityp]

The good news is, the idea of 'having it' is largely a myth. Put in the practice, and you will see results. Your capability is probably pretty high, but realize that 99% of people will not go anywhere near that capability, because they don't have the consistency, obsessive focus, and willingness to sacrifice other aspects of their life necessary to get there.

Hell yes! All you need is diligence. Time + Work = Infinity. Sacrifice. The more you sacrifice, the more you devote yourself to your craft, the more effective your practice will become. And it's all practice whether your at home or in Carnegie, every time you play is just an opportunity to be better than the last time. I think once you can really get that mentality you might realize that there is no peak that your potential, indeed human potential in general, cannot theoretically achieve, and as such it really may not matter at all when you start, it's what you put into your work when you do. A man starting music at age 55 might achieve more in his last 20 years than the 5 yr old will in all his 70. It's unlikely but it's certainly possible and if that is so than why the hell shouldn't that be you?

[m1469]

Which true examples of what you are thinking about do you have?  People tend to answer these questions basically based on observation of other people.  Do you see anybody else doing what you want to do?  If not, then obviously the answer is only up to you.  If you do see others doing it and that gives you a frame of reference, then you can choose to let that define you and/or your path in whichever direction, maybe you can be inspired by it, or still you can either choose or will be forced to do your own thing despite whatever you may be observing.  I think it feels like quite a risk for anybody to really go all out and follow a deep calling/desire, and sometimes knowing what others are doing or have done can give a small comfort of some sort to that feeling of risk, but of course what others may or may not be doing doesn't accomplish for you what you need to accomplish (and doesn't necessarily answer your questions).

[outin]

The good news is, the idea of 'having it' is largely a myth. Put in the practice, and you will see results. Your capability is probably pretty high, but realize that 99% of people will not go anywhere near that capability, because they don't have the consistency, obsessive focus, and willingness to sacrifice other aspects of their life necessary to get there.

I wish it was so, but I am convinced it really isn't... piano playing to a high standard, just as any complicated activity, requires certain physical and mental qualities and if one misses them it's quite a struggle and no matter how much practice and work one puts in, the results will still be slightly disappointing. But that doesn't mean that it's not worth it, because there will still be the occasional leaps forward. And I don't think age has much to do with it. Some kids really struggle as well.

[hfmadopter]

Hell yes! All you need is diligence. Time + Work = Infinity. Sacrifice. The more you sacrifice, the more you devote yourself to your craft, the more effective your practice will become. And it's all practice whether your at home or in Carnegie, every time you play is just an opportunity to be better than the last time. I think once you can really get that mentality you might realize that there is no peak that your potential, indeed human potential in general, cannot theoretically achieve, and as such it really may not matter at all when you start, it's what you put into your work when you do. A man starting music at age 55 might achieve more in his last 20 years than the 5 yr old will in all his 70. It's unlikely but it's certainly possible and if that is so than why the hell shouldn't that be you?

 Horowitz played into his 80's probably not realizing there was that 70 YO deadline. If I could only play half as well at 62 !

[shazeelawan]

Starting early doesn't always mean they're better...I've seen people who were forced into it by their parents,but with no passion...they can spend decades of lessons but if there's no passion,your hands will feel waaay too heavy to practise.

[dangerouswaters]

I think your main goal, independently of what you are trying to learn, is to achieve YOUR full potential. If that falls short of a virtuoso it does not really matter, what matter the most is the journey, the process...what works best for you...starting from organizing your practice time, in a way that allows you to keep you motivated, to work on individual strength and weaknesses...I apologize if I sounded too prosaic!

[cmg]

As a late starter, I'm unusually ambitious, although I suspect a fair few on this forum are the same.

I strongly believe I can acquire the required technical skill with time and dedication, but at the same time feel disheartened by the limitations of the quantity of repertoire that I may be capable of amassing.

I think, with perseverance and a teacher who clicks with you, you can achieve remarkable technical proficiency. 

Time is the enemy, as others have noted.  I think it was Yefim Bronfman who wrote that he had studied and learned the major concerti in the repertoire in his teenage years.  Concertizing artists almost all have this head start on the rest of us.  Most are voracious score readers who, very early on, do sweeping surveys of the repertoire and decide which pieces best fit their talent, hands and temperament.  Then the process of winnowing the riches down to those pieces they play best begins.  In the end, they are playing a modest slice of the repertoire at world class level.

What I have done, as an amateur with a degree in performance, is re-visit the heavy-duty works I learned as a teenager and young man.  I never felt they were polished.  So, that's what I am doing now and surprised and pleased to report that many of these works (Chopin "Etudes," Scherzi,"  Beethoven mid-period sonatas, etc.) are almost to a professional level.  I think, with time, I could get them to a completely professional level.

But I can play many less difficult works at a professional level which is very gratifying.

In short, keep plugging away, analyze your technique for flaws, get a great teacher to help you fix the problems, and take a look at the big, ambitious works of your youth and re-work them. 

I would assume almost all pro pianists routinely play the works they've grown comfortable with over the years (a MUCH larger repertoire than I would have, certainly).  Newer additions to the repertoire are probably added one at a time, as a minority representation, surrounded by the tried and true warhorses.

Narrow your repertoire focus and take comfort in polishing the pieces you play best.  Yes?

[danhuyle]

Narrow your repertoire focus and take comfort in polishing the pieces you play best.  Yes?

Polish pieces that you feel have the most value to you.

You don't need 8 years or more just to be able to play whatever you want.

Learning notes is easy, and playing piano at elite level is a different game altogether that requires special attention in its own right.

Lack of time is actually NOT the problem, though most think it is...

[outin]

Learning notes is easy

These kind of comments always make me a bit desperate because that is and probably always will be the most difficult thing in playing the piano for me 

Now that I feel my techical issues are becoming less a problem, I struggle no less because of the damn notes, knowing WHAT to play takes probably about 90% of my focus and energy in playing and leave very little resources for the HOW part 

[costicina]

These kind of comments always make me a bit desperate because that is and probably always will be the most difficult thing in playing the piano for me 

Now that I feel my techical issues are becoming less a problem, I struggle no less because of the damn notes, knowing WHAT to play takes probably about 90% of my focus and energy in playing and leave very little resources for the HOW part 

The same is sadly true for me, to  ....

[outin]

The same is sadly true for me, to  ....

But we have to keep fighting, right?

Which reminds me, I really hope you are doing well with your other project!

[perprocrastinate]

These kind of comments always make me a bit desperate because that is and probably always will be the most difficult thing in playing the piano for me 

Now that I feel my techical issues are becoming less a problem, I struggle no less because of the damn notes, knowing WHAT to play takes probably about 90% of my focus and energy in playing and leave very little resources for the HOW part 

Don't worry, it's all part of the learning experience.

I'm stuck in an even worse spot because I can't sight read for my life!

[cmg]

You don't need 8 years or more just to be able to play whatever you want.

Learning notes is easy, and playing piano at elite level is a different game altogether that requires special attention in its own right.

Lack of time is actually NOT the problem, though most think it is...

Well, learning notes IS "easy," if your highest aspiration fits your development as a musician.  I mean, if you only desire to master "Come to Jesus" in whole notes, then, right, learning notes is "easy."  If you want to learn, say, "L'isle joyeuse," the learning process is much more complicated.  

And the complication factor is where "time" comes in:  the harder the score is to decipher (some keys are harder to read in than others, polyrhythms are challenging and not usually grasped immediately) the longer it takes, obviously to master.  So, no, "time," in this case, is definitely a problem.

P.S.  One more thought about "time."  Good sight-readers know that this skill is only a crude step towards mastering a piece that you want to perform.  When you really get down to finding the best fingering and exploring the nuances of a composer's notation, you find that you're spending an enormous amount of time on the piece.  So, again, time IS a problem.  The more you have, the more you can devote to polishing a piece.