Counting timing mentally

[peter_gr]

Hi, I played piano up to age 14 or so, and after 40 years have resumed.

The precise reason I gave up originally was that my teacher scolded me for my timing, saying I wasn't mentally counting out the time as I had been taught. In fact I was mentally counting out the finger numbering, those little numbers on the notes. In practice at the time I found it difficult to change, and not having the patience, gave up. I never discussed this problem at the time. It seemed too shameful.

When I resumed, I started with very simple pieces and made a deliberate policy of counting out the tempo. 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 and so on. This seemed to work, and I could tell that even simple pieces played at correct or approximately accurate tempo were enjoyable to listen to.

Gradually I moved on to pieces with more expression, and it seemed that something was lacking. So I tried stopping counting out the tempo, letting the rhythm come naturally, and leaving the mind blank if possible. I thought I might enjoy my own playing more if mentally I was not preoccupied with counting.

After a month or two, I could tell I was not doing that well. The tempo was not as accurate, and the mind does not stay blank. The right hand finger numbering would pop into my mind while playing. I really hated this, as it seemed like a dead end.

So I reverted to counting out the tempo, but not so "dictatorially", just let it flow with the piece so to speak, almost as if singing along silently.

I am curious as to whether teachers still get students to count out timing, or if others have similar issues.

[quantum]

Hi peter_gr, welcome to Pianostreet!

If you would like to count in pieces that require more pulse flexibility, choose larger note values to count.  Smaller note values will be allowed flexibility, while the larger anchoring beats will be in time.  

For example, instead of counting in quarter notes, count in half or even whole notes.  If necessary you many need only one count per bar.  

[hfmadopter]

I use counting to get difficult passages fixed in my mind. I teach counting to my limited number of students I teach, especially in the beginning and again for the more difficult areas or trouble spots they may have. Overall in my own playing I don't have to count a lot now, I can feel the pulse of a piece but if something gets out of sync then counting will usually fix it. Or if a piece has a lot of syncopation in it, I count to get the notes to fall correctly in the first few passages. I can then generally carry it on from there.

Listening to yourself play can be a trouble spot. And not hearing your work can be a trouble spot just as well ! Point being, Obviously you hear yourself playing just don't get lost listening to it. Recording can be an extension of piano or even a hobby in itself and in so doing you get to sit back and listen fully. I kind of catch the/ my sound if you will, in the back of my mind as I play but I'm pretty busy producing the music and often do not hear it as a listener in the room would hear it. If you listen more strongly than execute playing you will derail or I will at least. I hear it well enough to get satisfaction from my work though. Some people do complain that they can not hear themselves play the melody but I feel it's a matter of time and or training ones self.

And welcome !

[peter_gr]

Thanks for the welcome. Two very interesting and stimulating replies.

Regarding counting down to one beat per bar. In fact I find myself going in the opposite direction. For example, some pieces are mainly quavers and semi-quavers, but have say 2/4 time, and I naturally find it easier to count 4 beats per bar in that case. Sometimes there might be the odd longer note, and unless I count out the time, I tend to rush those parts.

So I seem to have two problems. The minor problem is rthym, and by counting time small errors such as rushing longer notes can be avoided. The bigger problem, though, is mental occupation.

I have been browsing the subject of piano technique. Perhaps my learning approach is deficient. Currently, I am learning each new piece by simple repetition. Each piece, I spend a couple of months playing twice or three times a day, until I play at speed. I am not memorising any works as a whole. I am relying on hand memory, but the brain is greatly occupied reading the music and setting the hands for the next phrase.

This approach does seem to work a bit, of course. However perhaps there is a better way. Sometimes the hand movements are such that the eyes must leave the score and watch the keys, and actual notes must be recalled. I had regarded this as counter-productive, but my reading is starting to suggest that this is the way to go, in that pieces should be structurally memorized, and during play the mind should be active in recalling this structure and directing the hands through the composition. This would make the problem of occupying the mind while relying on automatically reading the score and playing a composition through hand memory moot.

So perhaps my current way is bad because it seeks to play a piece automatically, with no intellectual involvement, which in the end leads nowhere really.

[hfmadopter]

This approach does seem to work a bit, of course. However perhaps there is a better way. Sometimes the hand movements are such that the eyes must leave the score and watch the keys, and actual notes must be recalled. I had regarded this as counter-productive, but my reading is starting to suggest that this is the way to go, in that pieces should be structurally memorized, and during play the mind should be active in recalling this structure and directing the hands through the composition. This would make the problem of occupying the mind while relying on automatically reading the score and playing a composition through hand memory moot.

So perhaps my current way is bad because it seeks to play a piece automatically, with no intellectual involvement, which in the end leads nowhere really.

You mention hand movements, there comes a time where hand movements become part of the rhythm control ( that sounds obvious I know, but  anyway I'll try to explain). Not so much that your mind controls the hand in a deliberate thought process but ways that you automatically lift to a certain level and pause for the beat to fall  etc. Your hands get rhythm through articulation of movement. And I'm not speaking of note to note reflex, this is on another plane from note to note reflex or so called muscle memory of notes. It's something more in tune to complete phrases and from phrase to phrase. The more you understand the piece musically ( you at this point have put it together structually) the more this comes into play as well. It's liberating and it requires knowing where you are headed to next in the piece, be that memorized or in reading it.. Very unlikely to happen early on when you are piecing it together. When I feel or notice this happening, I have the piece nailed and am playing very relaxed ! Also at this point a tweak of an incorrect note will not derail my playing, I know the piece well enough to keep going.

[keypeg]

It sounds like there were some flaws in the way you were first taught.  Your teacher chided you for not "counting in your head" - he literally cannot hear you counting in your head, so he wouldn't know what you were doing back then.  Reading your latest post, it seems that you weren't taught how to approach a piece either.  You are missing a number of things that would make it easier for you.  There are probably a few of us who had to go this route and find out we were missing things that make learning to play easier.  Here are some first principals:

- Don't keep playing a piece from beginning to end over and over until you have it.  This doesn't work well.  Instead, divide it into sections, and work on the hardest section first.  Subdivide the section into subsections, and work backward.  Say you've isolated m. 40 - 44; you might work on 44, then 43 to 44, then 42 to 44.

- Principal: We can only concentrate on one new thing at a time.  So when you work on your mm. 38 - 44, get fingering and efficient moving (relates to fingering) first, then stick with it.  Get the notes.  Then concentrate on relative note value and maybe beat; then on pulse; then on dynamics.  You might get all the parts of the music done at one layer before moving on to the next.

It seems that you have built up an association with numbers and fingering, so that when you hear a number you think of a finger.  Might it help you to use alternatives such as "ta ta, teeta" or whatever syllables work?  Or maybe mix numbers and syllables as needed?  I have had to overcome an association with Solfege which stopped me from seeing notes as notes.

About counting, rhythm, and pulse - There are several elements.
- Note value and relative note value.  2 eighth notes = 1 quarter note which = 1/2 half note etc.  While working out how the notes fit together, you can use any note values to help you.  for example, a dotted quarter followed by an eighth could be "one and two and" where the eighth falls on the "and", and it could also be 1 2 3 4, where the dotted quarter = 3 eighths (1 2 3) and the eighth is the 4.  Whatever works
- Beats.  I.e. in 3/4 music there are 3 beats to a bar, and your notes should fit with these beats, because we want to feel those beats.  Then later you learn to syncopate, to make it a bit looser, but without losing the underlying beat or pulse.
- Rhythm.  Our 3/4 music might be a waltz with a strong OOM pah pah to it.  Or you might have a rhythm in the way the music is written.  It relates to the beat.
- "Pulse".  I don't know if that is the right name for it.  This surge that goes from measure to measure.  (It's the part that I tended not to have).

I think you can work on them in that order, or maybe going back and forth.

[lostinidlewonder]

Peter you may find rhythmic solfege helpful. System such as the takadimi https://www.personal.kent.edu/~sbirch/Common/PDF_BOOKS/Theory%20I/02-Takadimi%20Rhythmic%20Solfege.pdf

[peter_gr]

Grateful for all the advice.

No doubt there were flaws in my musical education, but I'm extremely grateful for it.

I do recall playing hands separate, but only in the very early stages. I got to, or at least studied for, grade 4 in the Australian system, circa 1970, which means I would have passed preliminary and grades 1-3 practice, and grade 2 theory. Looking at the old examination pieces, they all do seem fairly even, without any "developments" or particularly troublesome parts. For practice I only recall playing a piece right through, and do not remember being told otherwise.

Currently I'm working through a music book with 11 units, each of 5 or so pieces. I'm up to about unit 8. A typical session would be major/minor scales, exercises from either 1/3/5/7 or 2/4/6, revising 3 or 4 prior pieces, then playing through 5 pieces twice each complete both hands, taking half an hour or so. I then go to a few other pieces I am working on for one reason or another.

Today I tried something different. I just worked on one piece, away in a manger, which I find fairly difficult. I divided it into 4 overlapping sections, played each section HS, then HT, then the whole piece HT. I had some trouble with fingering, and played the whole piece HS/HT alternatively for a while. I spent about 4 hours on it. At the end I was playing at an adequate tempo and technique, but with a few fingering problems with the chord changes still.

Although I tried to memorize it, I do not believe I did. My short term memory is shot though, those variable names just do not stick like they used to. The question I have to ask myself, if I spent 4 hours just playing the piece through, how would I have gone? The answer is, probably terribly, my fingers would have tied up in knots after hour 1, so the experiment is a qualified success.

I believe I will now follow the advice here and learn a piece by sectioning it up, playing HS if it allows, until something faster than normal tempo is reached. Try to memorize it; if it doesn't stick, so be it; but at least attempt to understand its construction with all the theory one has. By doing this, one avoids a fair amount of tedious slow butchering of a piece when initially learning it. Also its an obvious antidote to that fingers-in-knot problem I can get if focusing too much on one piece. Hopefully an understanding of its construction will lead to better musical interpretation.

The takadimi system looks interesting. I like the 1-2-3-4 though, because it allows easier return to the position in the bar on the score if the eyes have to glance at the keyboard to check positioning. If I am mentally at "3" I know what beat I am up to. However just "ta" would not provide this info. A number can be strung out, three-ee-ee-ee for example.

[hfmadopter]

Today I tried something different. I just worked on one piece, away in a manger, which I find fairly difficult. I divided it into 4 overlapping sections, played each section HS, then HT, then the whole piece HT. I had some trouble with fingering, and played the whole piece HS/HT alternatively for a while. I spent about 4 hours on it. At the end I was playing at an adequate tempo and technique, but with a few fingering problems with the chord changes still.

Although I tried to memorize it, I do not believe I did. My short term memory is shot though, those variable names just do not stick like they used to. The question I have to ask myself, if I spent 4 hours just playing the piece through, how would I have gone? The answer is, probably terribly, my fingers would have tied up in knots after hour 1, so the experiment is a qualified success.

My short term memory is pretty much gone as well, however I can memorize sections of a piece well enough to say turn a page or get through a difficult passage. I don't think I'll be memorizing any more sonatas any time soon. I'm happy to play well up to a certain level though even if I have to read it now !

I have a couple of books of Christmas Carols, I just put my own bass to them all, I don't like their arrangements at all. I am enjoying learning and playing David Nevue's arrangements of a few traditional ones though. His arrangements are kind of what I've been looking fo and for this years at least close enough to along the lines of what I do to mine anyway. I emailed him and told him he's saving me a lot of work arranging, I wish he had more !! David is a great guy, he always responds to email.

Finally, if you have been away from the piano for 40 years you must know that you have to give yourself some time to get your hands and mind back into the keys. Someone told me it's like riding a bicycle you never never forget !! Ha, well they obviously never played piano ( I was away a long time too)..