Chopin's most challenging piece?

[liszmaninopin]

What would you consider Chopin's most challenging piece (with regards to technicality, musical expression, everything)?

[Rob47]

I'd say some of his etudes.  All his other works, and I mean all of them use his "etudal" techniques.

I'd say op.10. 2, and 25. 6 (thats the thirds right?)

His Ballades are musically difficult...aren't they?  But really thats stupid for me to say because what isn't musically difficult.  It's an oxy moron?(is that the word?) to say anything is musically difficult...because everything is musically difficult.  Which is why my "technique is a clone of musicality sent back in time" post is so frickin insteresintg
haha just joking

your friend
Rob

op.10 #2, op25#6
Ballades

[Antnee]

Hmmm... That's quite a difficult question to answer. The hardest Etude is probably the one in thirds. Probably quite hellish to perfect. Chopin can at times be very tricky. I think his most difficult and ultimately most profound works are the preludes.  A couple of those preludes are incredibly hard and startingly original, so it is very difficult to capture Chopin's ideas in pieces like these. Like No. 16 for example. As for musically difficult, some of the easier pieces (in comparison to others) are tough to get the full warmth and savor out of. Like the nocturnes. They are so beautiful that if they aren't played with the utmost care, they loose their chopinesque character. I don't think the polonaises are too difficult, except for a couple. The most difficult and most musically intersting one is the one in F# Minor. Incredible. The Ballades of course drip emotion, and also can be tricky. Geez, there are so many things to consider... I'll just stop now, and see what others say...

-Tony-

P.S.- I've been glued to the finale of Chopin's Third sonata. Anybody else love this piece?

[thracozaag]

What would you consider Chopin's most challenging piece (with regards to technicality, musical expression, everything)?

  Polonaise Fantasie.

koji (STSD)

[Nightscape]

There's quite a bit of hard Chopin...

Andante spianato and grande polonaise brilliante

Barcarolle

Minute Waltz (just kidding.... but I bet most people think this is really really hard)

[maxy]

Sonata #3!  It has to be on the list!

[presto agitato]

What would you consider Chopin's most challenging piece (with regards to technicality, musical expression, everything)?

Sonata num 3 in B minor

[allchopin]

I cannot tell you which is the hardest piece, but I can most certainly tell you which are not.  They are not:
Etude Op. 25 #6
Barcarolle
Prelude #16
Minute Waltz


I would actually go to say that none of the etudes are the hardest pieces.

[Spatula]

I'm already finding Sonata 1 presto hard enough.  It's not insane, just requires a lot of attention.

[Troldhaugen]

I think his Ballades are both musically and technically very challenging. From my experience, G minor is the most difficult of all in terms of OVERALL technical difficulty, although 99% of people would say F minor is the hardest. F minor could be even harder in some measures, but for some reason I had easier time tackling F minor than G minor. They're some of the most beautiful works by Chopin, by the way. You definitely won't be disappointed, and you'll have so much fun playing them.. Sonata Op.58 and Scherzos are also very challenging, as well.

[Nightscape]

I do think that the Barcarolle is one of Chopin's harder pieces.  It is filled with troublesome double thirds, and even worse are the double sixths in the right hand that must be played very quickly and smoothly.  And let's not forget about the double third trills in the right hand.  For comparision, the F minor ballade is not near as awkward for the hand as the Barcarolle is, most of the patterns in the fast section of that ballade easily fall under the hands, whereas in the Barcarolle, some unusual stretchings and positions are required of the right hand.

[rohansahai]

I do think that the Barcarolle is one of Chopin's harder pieces.  It is filled with troublesome double thirds, and even worse are the double sixths in the right hand that must be played very quickly and smoothly.  And let's not forget about the double third trills in the right hand.  For comparision, the F minor ballade is not near as awkward for the hand as the Barcarolle is, most of the patterns in the fast section of that ballade easily fall under the hands, whereas in the Barcarolle, some unusual stretchings and positions are required of the right hand.

Really?? Maybe we are forgetting the Bercuese also then??

[Nightscape]

I do think that the Barcarolle is one of Chopin's harder pieces.  It is filled with troublesome double thirds, and even worse are the double sixths in the right hand that must be played very quickly and smoothly.  And let's not forget about the double third trills in the right hand.  For comparision, the F minor ballade is not near as awkward for the hand as the Barcarolle is, most of the patterns in the fast section of that ballade easily fall under the hands, whereas in the Barcarolle, some unusual stretchings and positions are required of the right hand.

Really?? Maybe we are forgetting the Bercuese also then??

I don't know about that..... I mean, sure you have to be technically proficient to play the Bercuese, but its not very difficult at all to learn, and obviously there is little difficulty playing the hands together, since the LH has the same pattern over and over again.  It's a cool piece though.... but it can hardly be compared to Barcarolle in terms of difficulty.  That's like comparing a the 2 part inventions with the WTC.

[Hmoll]

What would you consider Chopin's most challenging piece (with regards to technicality, musical expression, everything)?

  Polonaise Fantasie.

koji (STSD)

Agreed. It's one of the few really awkward to play pieces he wrote. The texture is almost always very thick.
I wanted to play it for one of my juries in college. Messed around with it for about a week,  found out how hard it really was, and chose something a lot easier - the 3rd scherzo .

[krittyot]

Rondo in E-flat, op.16.

[etudes]

Polonaise Fantasie.

koji (STSD)

agree and also barcarolle and his sonatas
no one mentioned his concerto??

[pianomann1984]

I would also agree on the Polonaise Fantasie, though musically, the 4th Scherzo is fiendish.

[Waldszenen]

- Piano Concerto No. 1 (on some accounts harder than Tschaikowsky No. 1!)

- AS and GPB Op. 22

- Sonata No. 2 Op. 35

[jas]

P.S.- I've been glued to the finale of Chopin's Third sonata. Anybody else love this piece?

Yep, I absolutely love it. Though, maybe I'm just being a bit dim, but I don't think it looks as hard as a lot of people say it is. It's not easy by any stretch of the imagination, but if you have a good octave technique I don't see what would be so awful about it. Absolutely brilliant piece, though.
But then, maybe that's exactly why it's so hard. I know my hand gets knackered when I play octaves for too long.
The sonatas as a group overall are really difficult, though, I agree.

I don't agree about the Barcarolle being one of his most difficult. The double trills are tricky, but other than that I don't think you need too advanced a technique for it. But isn't it in the interpretation that most people trip up with this one?

I think op. 10, no. 11's really hard. How can anyone manage those stretches as fluently as they need to be? You'd need enormous hands or some sort of weird wrist defect, surely ...

Jas

[Rockitman]

Saw Louis Lortie in concert a couple of weeks ago and his repertoire was titled Chopin's Last Years.   He played:
Barcarolle in F-sharp Major, Op.60
Scherzo in E Major, Op.54
Polonaise-Fantaisie in A-flat Major, Op.61
Nocturne in B Major, Op.62 No.1
Sonata in B Minor, Op.58

Now I myself can't touch these pieces, but watching Lortie execute each of them,  I would have to say that it is a dead heat between the Polonaise and the Sonata as far as most difficult.   
He played the Polonaise just prior to intermission, and when he stood and bowed, his face was bathed in sweat. 
The Sonata is extremely profound and longer than the Polonaise, so I rank it right there with it. 
The Baracolle can't touch these two in terms of technical demands. 

[pocorina]

Hmmm... That's quite a difficult question to answer. The hardest Etude is probably the one in thirds. Probably quite hellish to perfect. Chopin can at times be very tricky.

I cannot believe this. The 25/6 thirds etude is most definately not the hardest etude. It's the first one I learned!!

His hardest:

Etude: op.15 no.23
Prelude: no.16
Ballade: no.1
Polonaise: it's either "Military" or "Heroic". I don't mean they are both hard, i mean one is REALLY hard. I think it starts with 6ths or something.

But i think the la ci darem le mano variations are pretty tough

[dinosaurtales]

Saw Louis Lortie in concert a couple of weeks ago and his repertoire was titled Chopin's Last Years.   He played:
Barcarolle in F-sharp Major, Op.60
Scherzo in E Major, Op.54
Polonaise-Fantaisie in A-flat Major, Op.61
Nocturne in B Major, Op.62 No.1
Sonata in B Minor, Op.58

Now I myself can't touch these pieces, but watching Lortie execute each of them,  I would have to say that it is a dead heat between the Polonaise and the Sonata as far as most difficult.   


He played the Polonaise just prior to intermission, and when he stood and bowed, his face was bathed in sweat. 
The Sonata is extremely profound and longer than the Polonaise, so I rank it right there with it. 
The Baracolle can't touch these two in terms of technical demands. 

Yup.  That's pretty much the program he did for us here in Portland.  The final movement of the Sonata gets me every time - it almost doesn't matter who is playing it, but I knew by the way he played the barcarolle and the scherzo that I was going to melt in the sonata, and I was right.  I just melted to goo when that theme came around for the last time.  Anybody gets a chance to listen to Louis Lortie, take it in at any price!  His Chopin is fabulous!

[apion]

I would say that his two piano concerti are the most challenging ......... because the poor pianist must be inundated with Chopin's 2nd rate (3rd rate) orchestration ineptitudes, and must transcend this to somehow elicit an applause from the audience ........   

[lmnophu2003]

Hi - I'm new to this group - hello everyone - this looks like a fun group.
OK - technically the most difficult piece by Chopin is..........yes - the Etude Op.25no.6 in thirds - no question.  Musically speaking, however, it's much more subjective, actually impossible, right?  But I would say the Pollonaise op.53 in Ab Major recieves more bad performances than any other Chopin piece, so that might suggest something about it's difficulty to pull off.

[Waldszenen]

I would say that his two piano concerti are the most challenging ......... because the poor pianist must be inundated with Chopin's 2nd rate (3rd rate) orchestration ineptitudes, and must transcend this to somehow elicit an applause from the audience ........   

LOL!

I heartily agree

[pocorina]

Hi - I'm new to this group - hello everyone - this looks like a fun group.
OK - technically the most difficult piece by Chopin is..........yes - the Etude Op.25no.6 in thirds - no question. Musically speaking, however, it's much more subjective, actually impossible, right? But I would say the Pollonaise op.53 in Ab Major recieves more bad performances than any other Chopin piece, so that might suggest something about it's difficulty to pull off.

What are you on about? That etude is one of the easiest. once you have learned the first coupla pages, you have mastered the whole piece basically, it's only thirds, not that bad.

Perhaps this opinion is unusual. I remember when i first learned that etude, my piano teacher could not believe it was the first etude I had chosen to learn, and was even more astonished i could actually play it and master the thirds.

[paris]

ballade g-minor is his most personal work, and to understand it is very complicated, but technical i don't think it's the hardest work

[pianomann1984]

ballade g-minor is his most personal work, and to understand it is very complicated, but technical i don't think it's the hardest work

I don't know.  I think one can feel the ballades far more instinctively. 

What are you on about? That etude is one of the easiest. once you have learned the first coupla pages, you have mastered the whole piece basically, it's only thirds, not that bad.

Perhaps this opinion is unusual. I remember when i first learned that etude, my piano teacher could not believe it was the first etude I had chosen to learn, and was even more astonished i could actually play it and master the thirds.

Is this not the case with all the etudes?  Each one is based on one principle of piano technique.  Thus once you master the main motifs, you are likely to be able to play all the etude with little difficulty.  For this reason, I would say that although the etudes are difficult and daunting to behold at first, they are definately not his most difficult works.  I would still say that the Polonaise Fantasie, and the 4th Scherzo are amongst the most challenging music around.

[steinwayguy]

I don't know. I think one can feel the ballades far more instinctively.

Is this not the case with all the etudes? Each one is based on one principle of piano technique. Thus once you master the main motifs, you are likely to be able to play all the etude with little difficulty. For this reason, I would say that although the etudes are difficult and daunting to behold at first, they are definately not his most difficult works. I would still say that the Polonaise Fantasie, and the 4th Scherzo are amongst the most challenging music around.

Wrong. Look at Op. 10 No. 3, and especially Op. 10 No. 4.

[pianomann1984]

Wrong. Look at Op. 10 No. 3, and especially Op. 10 No. 4.

I have studied the vast majority of the Chopin Etudes in depth, though I would not necessarily perform them yet.  Op 10 No 4 is simply a gigantic 2 part invention, and a excercise in dexterity/awkward hand positions that make the thumb more acrobatic.  There are far more difficult etudes to attempt - like Op 10 No 1, for example.  Also, you are picking holes - maybe I should not generalise (Op 10 No 3 actually concentrates on maybe 3 aspects of technique), but still they are not nearly as complex as the other works I mention. 

[C-A]

My opinion(Top 5):
1. Chopin's Etude 25/6(Thirds)- even though it was relatively easy for me to learn it.
2. Chopin's Winter Wind
3. Chopin's Polonaise in F#minor Op.44
4. Chopin's 'Heroic' Polonaise Op.53
5. Chopin's Barcarolle

The Etude Op.25, no.6 is devishly difficult to play, even my teacher says its the most difficult(Its the true opposite for me- took me less than 2 months to learn it, just as easy as the "Aeolian Harp" Op.25, no.1)Chock full of thirds on the right hand with a complex left hand- a lot of independence is needed, stamena and brain power. The Chromatics are confusing(for me, no way). The biggest problem is the middle section, when both hands are thirds together- so difficult to attain accurancy.

The Winter Wind is really tiring- non stop the right hand whirls up and down the keyboard for 3 minutes almost non-stop. Fingering on the RH is very uncomfortable.

The F#minor Polonaise is extremely difficult- chock full of massive chords, key changes
and sometimes the left hand becomes difficult to play, plus, this is the longest I know-
10 minutes!

The "Heroic" is full of confusing passages of chords. The middle section is has a merciless Left-Hand.

The Barcarolle, though not as technically demanding, is difficult to interpret.

To see these pieces, go to https://chopin.lib.uchicago.edu and search the piece you're looking for.

[thalbergmad]

I have always found the Rondo Op16 very difficult

[argerich_smitten]

Musically I wouldn't hazard a guess, but i'd put opus 10 # 1 as the technically hardest piece to play with utmost correctness that i've come across yet (not just talking about chopin here).  I picked it up quickly to a bit sloppy 'mediocre' level, but it's really just impossible to play perfectly.  Making every note come out balanced & strong... really never even heard that on recordings. 

and I don't think 25 # 6 is 'devilishly difficult' to play...  you just have to get you head around the fact that it really is humanly possible to do, and then all of a sudden things don't seem so bad.  Really, I think it kind of falls in the fingers, and it's not like in opus 10 # 2 where you will be severly fatigued after going all the way through (at least i get severly fatigued by 10 #2, though perhaps that puts me in the 'sucker' catagory).  I think 25 # 6 presents more musical problems than technical ones. 

[hodi]

just by looking at horowitz playing the "heroic" polonaise makes me think that this piece is incredibly challenging.

[Glyptodont]

The standard is tricky.  If you mean just hitting all the notes, that's one thing.  If you mean playing a piece with the quality and delivery of a master, that's something else. 

[C-A]

Now thats right.
Well, even though technically etude 25/6 for me is quite easy for me to master, when it comes to quality, thats really hard, especially when your in front of an audience! My playing on this etude is a mixed-bag: Sometimes I play it well almost top quality, sometimes I play it horridly. If it is the 1st time I played it, then it is A-ok. Good Quality. When they wanted an encore of the same thing, man my fingers became so tired after the middle section, the quality becomes really poor and at the last part, and one jealous uncle of mine begins to boo as I begin to make mistakes at the last part.
Also, I am very delicate in playing pieces. A single wrong note or wrong fingering can lead to disaster, especially when it comes to tricky ones like 25/6. Well, thanks a lot for the advice, Glptodont, Now I played it a while ago, and it sounds a little better.
Oh and Argerich, I'll try Op.10, no.2, if my teacher allows it. She won't allow me to play another etude for a whole year since she became kinda jealous and a little traumatized since I easily learned 25/6.

[Chrysalis]

i go for the 10:2 and ballade no 4