I never use 4th finger when i play octaves, is that ok?

[musicioso]

Hey guys, i need some advise again

When i play octaves (chromatic or whatsoever) I only use the first and fifth fingers. Is that ok? Or should i also use 4rth finger for optimal execution? Are there also other pianists who never use 4th finger when playing octaves?

And if i should use 4th fingers, do you know some exercises that could tech me how to do that?

Any advise is most welcome.

[asuhayda]

Funny you mention it..

I use a fourth finger while ascending or descending octave scales, jumps and what not.

I've been working with a coach for about 6 months now and she does not use her 4th finger.  I was shocked to hear this.  But apparently, some people don't.

Regardless, I would recommend that you use it. You can feel your way around the piano easier by doing this.  Using nothing but a 5th finger often forces you to resort to blind leaps.  It just makes things simpler IMHO.

[scherzo123]

Exercises...

Chopin Etude Op.25 No.10
Scriabin Etude Op.8 No.9

[serqin]

  I would highly reccomend it as long as it isn't uncomfortable for you since it will help when playing octaves at a faster pace.
  If you are able to but it's a little strained then only use when legato fingering is needed.

  I found playing chromatic octaves to be highly useful.

[perprocrastinate]

I didn't think it was practical when I first heard of it. But I tried it out, and it actually helps a lot.

You can even use your third finger for more preservation of legato if your hand is big enough.

If that made no sense, this example could help:

[coldness]

What if you can barely reach an octave at the edge of the keys with 1 and 5?

[danhuyle]

There's no right or wrong when playing octaves.

I use the 4th finger on black keys and 5th on the white when I'm playing 2 note octaves as opposed to chords.

It's personal preference.

People who can only play an octave can only use fingers 1 & 5. Pianists, like myself, who can reach a 9th or more have the option to alternate between 4th and 5th.

[coldness]

Does that mean I wont' be able to go as fast as people who are able to reach with 4th finger?

[j_menz]

Does that mean I wont' be able to go as fast as people who are able to reach with 4th finger?

If you are young, or if you have not been playing for a long time, you may find that your hand stretches a bit over time. Don't try and force this; itt will happen naturally.

If you are older and have been playing for a number of years, you probly won't get any bigger stretch and what you do have will limit your speed in very fast octave passages.  There are plenty of pieces without them, though.  And apparently everyone wants faster octaves (despite Liszt's comments on them).

[fleetfingers]

Hello, there. I can only reach 1 and 5, also. It can be hard to play fast octaves. Sometimes I slip because I can barely reach. But, I wonder if I have an advantage with octaves, because it is my max stretch . . . less estimation to get used to . . . just keep my hand open and there it is. But then again, I get fatigued more quickly because I'm at my max.

The ability you will miss out on, coldness, is playing legato octaves. I prefer to play sixths with alternating fingers for legato, and I wish I could do the same with octaves. If you can reach with the fourth finger, I would suggest practicing that way, so you can make use of it when the music calls for it. From what I understand, that is reason many pianists use 1 and 4.

[johnmar78]

Does that mean I wont' be able to go as fast as people who are able to reach with 4th finger?

  physically true , mentally not true. But think about octave trills, I have to admit 45 is faster than 55, by all means-physcially and mechanically.

[musicioso]

Hallo guys.

Thank you very much for your replies.

This is an exercise someone gave me. This makes me depressed, because this is hard to do, how am i suposed to do this fast? In this exercise they even use the 3rd finger :s

https://postimage.org/image/qz2pori13/full/

Does anyone have another fingering without the 3rd finger, please send it to me.

[ajspiano]

Does anyone have another fingering without the 3rd finger, please send it to me.

You can momentarily use your foot.

The taubman techniques argues for never using anything other than 1-5, and that legato octaves should always be done with pedal. I don't quite agree with that, but it is an option.

[slobone]

I'm lucky enough to be able to use 4 or even 3, but I'm embarrassed to admit I've never practiced octaves seriously. I know I'm going to have to face it someday, but in the meantime I just avoid pieces that call for them, even otherwise easy ones like Scott Joplin or the Mozart alla turca.

[musicioso]

I'm lucky enough to be able to use 4 or even 3, but I'm embarrassed to admit I've never practiced octaves seriously. I know I'm going to have to face it someday, but in the meantime I just avoid pieces that call for them, even otherwise easy ones like Scott Joplin or the Mozart alla turca.

Why do you think its good for us to know that? LOL

[slobone]

Why do you think its good for us to know that? LOL

You know, this is the only forum I come to where people are unpleasant to other posters for no particular reason. And I go to some pretty ferocious political forums.

[musicioso]

You know, this is the only forum I come to where people are unpleasant to other posters for no particular reason. And I go to some pretty ferocious political forums.

Well, i am sorry. It wasn't really meant to be unpleasant and mean.
It was just kinda funny, and i mentioned it. For the sake of humor.

If i offended you, i am really really sorry.

[slobone]

Apology accepted. I also come off sounding  a little too personal sometimes when I don't really mean to. Not an unusual thing to happen on the webs.

[hfmadopter]

Apology accepted. I also come off sounding  a little too personal sometimes when I don't really mean to. Not an unusual thing to happen on the webs.

It's very difficult in internet posts to pick up on someones intentions, it's not as though we see facial expressions and perhaps there is a warm smile coming along with what sounds like a bitter post that was meant to be light hearted. I've been accused many times of being harsh in the photo forums where I hung out for years, mostly unwarranted I thought. I learned to just move on when that happened but it took me a while to realize that was the thing to do.

As to the fingering, I use 1 and 5 on octaves, always have even though I can span a ninth. To me that leaves another option if there is to be any fill in notes between the octaves. By a tenth I split the note anyway. Also against conventional wisdom I suppose, I will touch the pedal on legato octaves. I see the pedal as a tool and so I use it when it's to my advantage to do so.. I know it can lead to sloppiness but I do it is all I can say ( no guilt or shame about that here !).

[sucom]

My thoughts about this topic are related to legato playing.  Playing ALL octaves in EVERY piece with just 1 and 5 doesn't allow for any legato unless the sustain pedal is used, and the pedal should never be used, in general, to take the place of good finger legato.

In some situations, using only 1 and 5 may be acceptable but in many cases, in order to achieve a good legato it may be necessary to use 4, 5 or even 3, 4, 5.

If it is not possible to stretch, then 1 and 5 will just have to acceptable, but if possible, I would certainly aim to use 3 and 4 when necessary or desirable.

[coldness]

Regarding the comment on what Liszt said about fast octaves.......What did he say?

[hfmadopter]

My thoughts about this topic are related to legato playing.  Playing ALL octaves in EVERY piece with just 1 and 5 doesn't allow for any legato unless the sustain pedal is used, and the pedal should never be used, in general, to take the place of good finger legato.

In some situations, using only 1 and 5 may be acceptable but in many cases, in order to achieve a good legato it may be necessary to use 4, 5 or even 3, 4, 5.

If it is not possible to stretch, then 1 and 5 will just have to acceptable, but if possible, I would certainly aim to use 3 and 4 when necessary or desirable.

A convincing effect, if not true legato by definition can be pulled off using pedal, it takes a very light pumping action to do it. Just a touch of the pedal at each note.  Too much pedal and you get lousy harmonics and no legato effect. To rhe purist this will be unacceptable, probably true. I guess I live life on the edge !!

[sucom]

A convincing effect, if not true legato by definition can be pulled off using pedal, it takes a very light pumping action to do it. Just a touch of the pedal at each note.  Too much pedal and you get lousy harmonics and no legato effect. To rhe purist this will be unacceptable, probably true. I guess I live life on the edge !!

I agree that you can get a reasonably convincing effect but if there is one thing I remember about my teacher, that is his legato playing which was simply out of this world and is something I think will stay with me for ever.  He never advocated substituting the pedal when the fingers could do the work.  He used both and the difference was very noticeable.  If for no other reason, I have to consider the importance of finger legato first, and pedalling second, but it's not one, then the other; more, the two go together. 

[hfmadopter]

I agree that you can get a reasonably convincing effect but if there is one thing I remember about my teacher, that is his legato playing which was simply out of this world and is something I think will stay with me for ever.  He never advocated substituting the pedal when the fingers could do the work.  He used both and the difference was very noticeable.  If for no other reason, I have to consider the importance of finger legato first, and pedalling second, but it's not one, then the other; more, the two go together. 

I agree. Mine taught the same way ( super teacher I might add but that was many moons ago now).

[slobone]

One thing that I don't think has been addressed so far is whether it's always historically correct to change fingers on octave passages. Did Haydn and Mozart expect people to do that? I wonder. I'm working on a Haydn sonata which is very manageable technically until suddenly you get to a fast passage in octaves. Did he really want it to be perfectly legato?

There's also the question of whether things sounded different on early fortepianos. I wonder what Malcolm Bilson does.

[j_menz]

Regarding the comment on what Liszt said about fast octaves.......What did he say?

Do I care how fast you can play your octaves? What I wish to hear is the canter of the horses of the Polish cavalry before they gather force and destroy the enemy.

In short, technique is there to serve effect not an end in itself.