What the heck is up with middle pedals?!

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Okay so...  This is how it is...

*me playing Bach for my teacher during lessons*

him:  NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO STOP STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP

me:  What the heck why?!

him:  Don't EVER use the middle pedal again, you hear me!

Me:  Why not?

Him:  ...  Because...  Because...  Because they DON'T FREAKING WORK!!!

Me:  What are you talking about, this one works fine!

Him:  You can't trust it!  Please, don't make the same mistake that I made...  I'm trying to save you!

Me:  Okay, what happened...

*He snaps his fingers, and we teleport to a concert hall in the past*

Me:  What the freaking heck happened!  Where are we?!?!?!!?  

Him:  Shhhhhhhh!!!!  We're in the concert hall that hosted the competition that I was in back in 1993

Me:  What the freaking heck?!?!

Him:  Shhhhhhhhh!!!  That's me!!!

*him from the past walking on stage*

Me:  Wow, you look so young!

Him:  Yeah, I look handsome right?  I was a ladies man back then!

Me:  Yeah okay...

Him:  Shhhhh, this is where I begin playing

*He puts his foot on the middle pedal, and after he hits the first note, he has a siezure*

Me:  What the heck happened!

*He snaps his fingers again and we're back in the lesson room*

Him:  THE MIDDLE PEDAL DIDN'T FREAKING WORK!!!  I was freaking playing a 21st century piece and the WHOLE thing revolved around that middle pedal!!!  DON'T MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE I DID!

Me:  Did you win the competition anyways?

Him: HELL NO I DIDN'T WIN THE ******* COMPETITION!!!

Me:  Jeez, I'm sorry!

Him:  Well did you learn your lesson?

Me:  Yes... NEVER use the middle pedal!

Him:  Why?

Me:  Because they don't work?

Him:  Yes, good, good...  Now play the Bach again...

Me:  Fine...

__________________________________________________

Do you guy ever use the middle pedal?  And should I listen to my teacher?

[49410enrique]

i do and have in the past . not all the time. just when i 'need it'. some pieces will specifically call for it.  some bach transcriptions of organ works are absolutely neccessary (whether or not they call/indicate it, many of the best ones do). orchestral transcriptions too, sometimes you ahve a held note in a lower register but need both hands in the uppers to play detached or with staccto. or sometimes (a piece i played last spring had it), you need the base to ring but you need to clear the dampers (i.e. half pedaling or even full at times) with quick runs otherwise you'd have a big mushy mess...

[j_menz]

They generally work on Grands and upper level DPs. They almost never work on uprights (or they do rather different things).

Some pieces do rather need it, though. I'm currently playing on an upright, and I miss it.

It shouldn't be necessary in Bach, though. He managed without.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

It shouldn't be necessary in Bach, though. He managed without.

Well I'm not Bach.

[j_menz]

Well I'm not Bach.

Of course not.



 

[asuhayda]

They usually come in three varieties.

1. Sostenuto Pedal - on grands - stains only those notes that you've played immediately before you depress the pedal

2. Bass sustain pedal - on cheaper grands - like the damper pedal, but only sustains the bass notes up to about the lower third of the piano (roughly)

3.  Practice pedal - on some uprights - sets the hammers closer to the strings so you can't play as loud.. there is usually a way to lock it in place.

What are these pedals useful for?  ABSOLUTELY NOTHING   

[rachmaninoff_forever]

What are these pedals useful for?  ABSOLUTELY NOTHING   

False!

My teacher told me that the piece he was supposed to play for that competition revolved around the middle pedal.  Because he had to sustain some middle notes while playing some staccato notes in the higher and lower registers. 

[asuhayda]

False!

My teacher told me that the piece he was supposed to play for that competition revolved around the middle pedal.  Because he had to sustain some middle notes while playing some staccato notes in the higher and lower registers. 

whatever dude.. that's what half pedalling is for!

[chopin2015]

you have to use it the right way for it to work, and just incase they don't work, hold the sustain pedal down too, I do it all the time in Debussy.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

whatever dude.. that's what half pedalling is for!

Well you can't play a true staccato with half pedal now can you?

[asuhayda]

YES! 

[cmg]

Most sostenuto pedals are crap and even on a good grand usually trip you up.  Go with half-pedalling.  Almost every pianist I know has said they avoid sostenuto because inevitably you'll run across a piano where the pedal doesn't work -- MUCH more often not.  Horowitz never had that problem, of course, for obvious reasons known to all of us.   

And, rach, I enjoyed your dramatic presentation of the lesson.  LOL!!

[richard black]

Half-pedalling is not even slightly a substitute for the middle pedal. It's true that the middle pedal is sometimes overlooked in maintenance, and can either cease to function reliably (i.e. only on some of the notes, or sometimes) or at all, and I would be reluctant to use it without trying it out on the instrument in rehearsal. But some pieces demand it and fall flat without it.

It's also a rather useful 'page-turning pedal', now and then!

[dailyreminder]

Hello everyone.

In my short experience the only time I've seen an actual demonstration of the way it works is in this video:

[iansinclair]

Well you can't play a true staccato with half pedal now can you?

No, you can't.  If the middle pedal is working as it should, it will hold the damper off on that note -- and only on that note.  You can do whatever you want with the other notes.  A half pedal will hold the dampers part way off on all the notes.  Not the same thing at all.

Unfortunately, CMG is right in saying that in many cases the middle -- sostenuto -- pedal doesn't work properly.  It is a tricky bit of action to get right, although it is by no means impossible to do so (at least on a decent piano).  That, however, is no excuse whatsoever for tolerating a malfunctioning pedal.  Nor is it, in my view, an excuse for fudging the pedaling.  Get your tech. to fix it, if it's your piano (personal point: if it works properly on my 115 year old Steinway... which it does).

[quantum]

There are pieces that call for the explicit use of the middle pedal.  For example, silently holding notes down for the entire piece where the sounding of adjacent pitches causes selected sympathetic vibration to occur on the sustained pitches. 

I have also found that the middle pedal is too frequently out of alignment on many grands.  It is possible to deal with the situation if you are aware of it.  Trying out your piece on the piano would be beneficial.  In any case, it would be good to have a backup plan and prepare an alternate solution if the middle pedal is a no-go. 

My improvisatory work does use quite a bit of middle pedal.  In such case an misaligned pedal may even provide a source of creativity. 

And should I listen to my teacher?

It would be a good idea to listen to your teacher.  However, you are by no means obliged to agree with him. 

One of my teachers frequently told her students: 
"You do not have to do anything I tell you, but you do have to do something."

The moral being that the teaching was not a dictation of how to play, but a springboard for ideas on how you could play. 

[blazekenny]

Okay so...  This is how it is...


Him:  Shhhhhhhh!!!!  We're in the concert hall that hosted the competition that I was in back in 1993



-----------------------
 I was freaking playing a 21st century piece and the WHOLE thing revolved around that middle pedal!!!

One does not simply play a 21st century piece in 1993

[pytheamateur]

Apparently it's not that widely used in Europe either.  One conservatoire teacher that I know teaches on a Bluthner grand piano with only two pedals.

[andreslr6]

As said before, first make sure it works 100% before making use of it. I wouldn't use it on a piano in a competition and risk making a mess with it, but if I'm recording on a piano I know it works I would definitely use it, without doubt. You can practice using both pedals and learn it that way, 100% learned both ways so you have the option whenever there's the possibility that you can use it and it works on the piano.

It would be a good idea to listen to your teacher.  However, you are by no means obliged to agree with him. 

One of my teachers frequently told her students: 
"You do not have to do anything I tell you, but you do have to do something."

The moral being that the teaching was not a dictation of how to play, but a springboard for ideas on how you could play. 

My teacher uses the word "guide" instead of "teacher", he never says "no", he just asks "why? why this instead of that? just because you like it that way is not valid, give me a solid reason, say something with it, try this first and then try your idea, etc."

He told me once "I'm a guide, I'm just giving you the tools that will solve the technical problems any piece may present to you, I'll give you the foundations and the reference points, in the end you might end up with a different view but you'll have what you need to do whatever you want". Best teacher I've ever had.

[nikolasideris]

As far as I know the middle pedal in a grand is the sostenuto pedal, and it can be quite useful in some cases (especially in contemporary music).

In uprights it's usually the 'silencer' (no idea how it's called in English) which makes practice less noisy and much worst overall...

But the sostenuto pedal, I need to repeat myself is hardly useless! It can come in very handy with various ideas (sustaining notes, over staccato ones, sympathetic harmonics in various places, pedalling notes, etc)... So... don't dismiss it so easily, please!

[black_keys]

I think the point is , the middle pedal is not an "international standard" (like the soustain pedal), so it may have different functions depending on the piano so you cant count on it. In most of upright pianos it works as "Sourdine" .But I dont know why piano teachers are so edgy when talking about the middle pedal  .

[gaidheal]

Before I discovered Percy Grainger, who notates his pieces with exquisite detail, I only knew one piece which required the (sustain) middle pedal - the second-last song from Schumann's Dichterliebe, and even there, it's only absolutely necessary in one bar near the end where a long chord has to be played with both hands, closely followed by a short note a couple of octaves below. It's possible to achieve a good effect without a middle pedal, but a couple of notes have to be held, then released early, by the right pedal.
Back to Grainger: in one use of the middle pedal in the piece I'm studying (Ramble On Love), he appears to 'create' a sound when all one does is release the middle and right pedals (both of which are holding specific notes) having silently pressed two open fifths. The created note - a G, despite the held F and C - is quiet, but I hope it will be audible in the audience as the next written note which is the start of the next tune is also a G. It's a magical effect!

[ahinton]

I think the point is , the middle pedal is not an "international standard" (like the soustain pedal), so it may have different functions depending on the piano so you cant count on it. In most of upright pianos it works as "Sourdine" .But I dont know why piano teachers are so edgy when talking about the middle pedal  .

Considering how long the sostenuto pedal has been around and that most major grand pianos over the past many decades have been equipped with one, the fact that it is still not regarded as having a kind of "international standard" status is quite an indictment.

Best,

Alistair

[indianajo]

They usually come in three varieties.

1. Sostenuto Pedal - on grands - stains only those notes that you've played immediately before you depress the pedal

2. Bass sustain pedal - on cheaper grands - like the damper pedal, but only sustains the bass notes up to about the lower third of the piano (roughly)

3.  Practice pedal - on some uprights - sets the hammers closer to the strings so you can't play as loud.. there is usually a way to lock it in place.

What are these pedals useful for?  ABSOLUTELY NOTHING   

Well, finally, a mystery solved, about #1.  I've play two pieces that require function #1, and I have never in my life played a piano that would do it.  Scott Joplin, Magnetic Rag, there are some half notes in the bass where the hand is supposed to be somewhere else a quarter note later. I even asked on this forum about that, what kind of special piano function he had, and nobody knew anything then.  Pictures at an Exhibition, #6 Samuel Goldenberg and Schmuyle,  there are some sustained left hand notes where either your fingers stretch an octave and an augmented fourth (maybe possible for ethnic European Russians, but not Siberians) or the lower note is sustained with either function #1 or function #2.  I've got a Sohmer with function #2 but it has a broken string I am not brave enough to replace.  On the 1941 Steinway console with no middle pedal, I have to play the SG&S lower sustained notes with my heel. (Possible for Siberians and other short limbed people like Native Americans).

[bugrad]

What Bach piece are you working on that requires middle pedal ?