Tchaikovsky - Op. 39 No. 21 (P.S. Comp)

[ajspiano]

This thread will act as the discussion center for those learning the fixed work for the competition.

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Please feel free to discuss learning process/ideas, form, interpretation, technique, and.. relevant things that make you laugh..   like Tchaikovsky memes for example.



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I will be contributing here and learning the work, - but not actually competing because I could totally scam you all if I did that. At this exact moment I don't have enough time (or a piano) to experiment and kick this off but will take the time to ramble about the piece a bit later once I've dug in.

[keypeg]

I've been waiting for somebody to post first. I explored the piece when it came out, mostly to see if I dare do it since I'm in remediation relearning everything.  The name "dream" got me into too much of a dreamy cliche - there is a steady waltz-like rhythm so any rubato has to keep that in mind.  There is also another underlying pulse.    The bass line forms a kind of countermelody and it's at this point that I'm afraid I might mess up my left hand in trying to bring it out.

Is that the kind of thing you were thinking of, Ajs?

[costicina]

 

I've been waiting for somebody to post first. I explored the piece when it came out, mostly to see if I dare do it since I'm in remediation relearning everything.  The name "dream" got me into too much of a dreamy cliche - there is a steady waltz-like rhythm so any rubato has to keep that in mind.  There is also another underlying pulse.    The bass line forms a kind of countermelody and it's at this point that I'm afraid I might mess up my left hand in trying to bring it out.

Your remark is very interesting. I agree with you that the rythm issue has a crucial role here. Anyway, we are still in a more primordial stage of learning notes, figuring fingering, bringing out the melody line(s) etc.
BTW, did any of you find a comfortable fingering for LH of small size?

[keypeg]

Anyway, we are still in a more primordial stage of learning notes, figuring fingering, bringing out the melody line(s) etc.
BTW, did any of you find a comfortable fingering for LH of small size?

I worked backward, just exploring the piece and letting my hands fall into whatever place they wanted for the time being.  Didn't get as far as fingering.  The LH concerns me because of where I'm at.  I'm coming from a motionless hand with fingers only moving (not healthy).  I'm doing a lot of things with pedal and allowing the hands and arms to release and move around, getting the wrist to move, arms to be free at the elbow.  I can do it in slow music with large movements.  But in this I'd be tempted to (m. 1) hold C and play the rest of the chord, hold B and play the rest of the chord etc., getting right back to that still hand.    I saw one recording which I liked a lot where the pianist's hands moved a lot at the wrist so it's not just fingers.  I'm mentioning it because if you have that then even a smaller hand also has a larger range.  Or someone might be able to coordinate pedal at that tempo beat by beat. That is what I meant when I wrote originally about this piece and technique.  If you have technique then you also have more choices.  My personal concern was m. 4 (LH).

[littletune]

The way I play it  (in measure 4 and 12, 36  and 44) is that I hold the f and g both with the thumb and d with second finger and b with fifth finger. 

[costicina]

The way I play it  (in measure 4 and 12, 36  and 44) is that I hold the f and g both with the thumb and d with second finger and b with fifth finger. 

Exactly the fingering I have figured out!!!

[ajspiano]

...first look.

[costicina]

Great tutorial, AJ,  thank you!!! 

[keypeg]

AJ, that was incredibly helpful, and I am gobsmacked that you took the time to create this video.  It addresses my own needs to a T, because I saw instantly how much of a 19th century hand I still had - and my left hand did not feel good after I played.  I love the way you took it apart and played from various angles in addition to the technique.  This is fantastic.

[hfmadopter]

...first look.

Nice tutorial AJ, useful to anyone !

[ajspiano]

Glad that I could help in some way...

I'd like to say though that I didn't intend this a a tutorial so much as just open discussion on the piece. I encourage all to apply due scrutiny, and offer their own thoughts - be they in agreement or to the contrary.

I hope that people can offer their own ideas and why they chose them, or say that they didn't like mine for a particular reason..   

[littletune]

Exactly the fingering I have figured out!!!

Cool 

...first look.

Your dog!!!! He wanted to play the piano too!!! Sooooo cute!!!!!!!! Did you ask him (or her) if maybe he wants to be in the competition too?    See if that happened in a video for the competition I would vote for you (and your dog) right away!!!     
Thanks for making the video and for talking about the pedal, at my exam one of the teachers didn't like how I used the pedal... so I think I'll have to work on that a little more!! 

[littletune]

\@_ 

[hfmadopter]

Glad that I could help in some way...

I'd like to say though that I didn't intend this a a tutorial so much as just open discussion on the piece. I encourage all to apply due scrutiny, and offer their own thoughts - be they in agreement or to the contrary.

I hope that people can offer their own ideas and why they chose them, or say that they didn't like mine for a particular reason..   

Well then, nice video AJ. It will help a lot of people and I found it interesting even though I'm not doing the piece myself. I look forward to futher discussion and videos from whom ever.

[keypeg]

I'd like to say though that I didn't intend this a a tutorial so much as just open discussion on the piece. I encourage all to apply due scrutiny, and offer their own thoughts - be they in agreement or to the contrary.

It is perfect  - and not a tutorial as you say.  I'll explain my thoughts: There are tutorials out there that explain "how" to play a piece note by note, step by step.  The "better" ones also show "how" it is done as technique.   Some teachers also teach this way.  That is not what you are doing.

I see different ways to use the hands, which gives a general idea of technique for this kind of passage, and from there I can experiment to find something that works.  I see you trying different angles - for example, playing only the outer notes (melody and bass line) of sections, or two notes of a three-note chord - exploring and finding strategies.  So rather than giving us a step-by-step "tutorial" which turns a student more into a marionette or clone, you are giving tools to thinking students who don't have them.  Or you are giving new ideas as a starter to help get us going.  This may not be needed by the advanced people, but for those of us who are/were self-taught, it is very useful.

[j_menz]

or say that they didn't like mine for a particular reason..   

Tea from a mug? I was truly disappointed, I had pictured a proper cup and saucer. 

Otherwise all good stuff.

[ajspiano]

Tea from a mug? I was truly disappointed, I had pictured a proper cup and saucer.

I was hoping to offend a pom.

[pianoplayjl]

Lol I learnt this piece in grade 5 but forgot all about it. The piece weighed down my otherwise excellent exam mark.

JL

[ajspiano]

So in an effort to further the learning..  I've just sat in adobe acrobat for a moment and removed all dynamic markings from our score. File is attached..  it still contains phrasing and accents.. they were too hard to get out without me just rewriting the score from scratch (which is a heap of effort..)

Anyway.. point being..  I would invite anyone to print it, then fill in your own dynamics, by hand, with some pretty serious detail. For example, you may mark multiple dynamics at any one moment such as that the top voice is mf and the lower voice is mp while the accompaniment part is p...   or any other array of musical shenanigans.

This should help you cement your own interpretive ideas. But then, also.. scan it (or digitally photograph it) and post it.. so that we can look at each others ideas..   because seeing the contrasting thoughts should be interesting and spur further ideas of our own. I'll post mine later today or tomorrow.

I also think it would be cool to hear some explanation..   "I like this dynamic there to provide a contrast against that other section" or "this cresc. is meant to build to a climax point in bar X"

[costicina]

It's a very interesting proposal!!! I'll discuss it with Costanza, but we need some days (we are not at home this week end).
Thank you for the time and the effort you spend for us 

[starstruck5]

So in an effort to further the learning..  I've just sat in adobe acrobat for a moment and removed all dynamic markings from our score. File is attached..  it still contains phrasing and accents.. they were too hard to get out without me just rewriting the score from scratch (which is a heap of effort..)

Anyway.. point being..  I would invite anyone to print it, then fill in your own dynamics, by hand, with some pretty serious detail. For example, you may mark multiple dynamics at any one moment such as that the top voice is mf and the lower voice is mp while the accompaniment part is p...   or any other array of musical shenanigans.

This should help you cement your own interpretive ideas. But then, also.. scan it (or digitally photograph it) and post it.. so that we can look at each others ideas..   because seeing the contrasting thoughts should be interesting and spur further ideas of our own. I'll post mine later today or tomorrow.

I also think it would be cool to hear some explanation..   "I like this dynamic there to provide a contrast against that other section" or "this cresc. is meant to build to a climax point in bar X"

I'll have a look later -though I try never to play the piece exactly the same way every time -I do have some general dynamic habits -

[keypeg]

Before actually going into this, I've been curious about something.  Are the present markings those of Tchaikovski, or were they put in by someone else?

[keypeg]

Thoughts on the first day were these.

Ok, first I latched onto "dreams" and on impulse had this slightly nostalgic thing going on which my teacher identified as the "cliche" that I tend to put to any romantic (not Romantic) piece.  It's not a dream of an old person looking back at youth.  It's a "sweet dream" of a young person, more along the lines of ferris wheels or a prancing puppy - hence the steady happy rhythm and (general) tempo.

We've got ABA (ternary?) where in the B part the melody trades voices at m. 17.  A resumes at m. 37.  The trading of voices in itself establishes contrast.

In the A part the melody has two phrases that start the same way, climaxing each time in the "answer" part of call-answer, the second time rising more - I agree with the original markings that have it subside before the B part comes in.  Don't have words for it.  A2 goes very much the same as A1.  My first question was, "How can I make the two measure phrase interesting, since it repeats four times?  How much contrast and how much sameness is too much?"

Still A part: Left hand has a countermelody going on.  You can actually play the bass line minus the middle notes and come up with pretty music.  Might this be a nice duet for single-note instruments?  I would want to hear the interplay of the melody and the bass line - make the bass line a tad less loud?  The middle notes have to be quite a bit softer.

Pulse needs to be steady - can the in-between LH notes have a rubato kind of flow?

B section:  LH carries the melody so the RH has to be quiet.  It builds to a climax in m. 21 - starting at the climax note which is high up, and then gradually subsiding.  You can't have that climax beginning if you start B too loud.  Interesting: there is no counterpoint at m. 17 - 21, so that LH melody comes in strongly.  Then at 22 both voices come in - like two singers, and fugue-like.  I'm almost wondering whether to allow the LH and RH to trade roles mid-way, with the right taking over slightly, and then letting the LH come in strongly at the repeat.  Middle notes of the RH have to be soft, of course.

I haven't understood the end of the two phrases yet.  There's something going on there.

The second A section is like the first.  Is anyone tempted to rewrite the ending rather than just trying to "bring out" something (is there anything to bring out?).

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That's what I see, but being able to bring it out is another matter.  These "simple grade 4/5 pieces" often need skills that I suspect are not grade 4/5 skills to really make them sing.

Erm - is this the kind of thing you mean?  

[j_menz]

Right, I'm struggling with this piece. I suspected I might. I don't like Tschaikovsky for piano, and this hasn't changed my mind.  I can't find a way to play it that doesn't strike me as unbearably twee. I also now can't find a performance that isn't either. The ones I thought were OK are now annoying me just as much as my own playing of it.

Gahhhh!

No actual point to this post, just needed to whinge.

[outin]

I don't like Tschaikovsky for piano, and this hasn't changed my mind.  I can't find a way to play it that doesn't strike me as unbearably twee.

Had to google that word and I think it describes pretty much how I feel about about this piece (and the other pieces by him that I have tried to play).

But since you signed up you must bite the bullet and learn to be twee 

[costicina]

That's right, the main challenge here is to bring in it some freshness in order to avoid the twee  character of the piece. That's why I asked my 13 yrs old daughter to partecipate on my behalf . I'm sure she could do better than me..

[keypeg]

My initial impression was that to make something out of this piece, one needs to have fine piano skills.  I showed the piece to my teacher who had the same opinion.  There are pieces commonly used as lower grade pieces that he doesn't use because they can only sound "studentish".  The irony is that by the time a pianist has the skills to do them justice, he wants to do greater works, so we rarely hear them played as they could be.  These pieces become the commonly disliked student pieces we all learn to hate and are glad they're over with.

I wrote what I see in the piece.  That doesn't mean I'm able to play it that way.   I'll be playing this at the level that I can reach, and I will also not hurt myself trying to do more than I can do. 

I played with AJS' suggestion to play with pedal and really explored it.  Feedback I got tells me that what I was doing first was right in the first place because the extra subtle things I saw disappear at tempo.  The act of looking deeply into pedal and blending/non-blending notes got me to see things I'd like to highlight.  When my teacher went over what I had thought of, some of this highlighting did reflect something in the music, but it might be brought out differently (again IF I have the control which I'm not sure that I do.)

I am using this for learning and exploring with others.  If I wanted to turn this into good piano music, I don't think I would be doing this piece.

[starstruck5]

I was going to work on the dynamics exercise which AJ suggested -but when re-hanging a bird feeder, a twig poked my eye -consequently I was unable to do very much after that -

I happen to think the more you complicate this piece -the worse it gets -at it's heart is a very simple folk melody -The melodic line and its counterpoint is nearly everything -imho

[keypeg]

I have a question about Tchaikovsky.  This is only the 2nd piece of his I've ever worked on.  The first one had been edited into "easy" so I don't know how true it was to the original.  It struck me as being more suited to a group of instruments.  This one, I would love to play the melody on a string or wind instrument, with accompaniment and maybe a second voice.  Are my instincts on track?  Is this piece something that isn't inherently that "pianistic"?

[j_menz]

This one, I would love to play the melody on a string or wind instrument, with accompaniment and maybe a second voice.  Are my instincts on track?  Is this piece something that isn't inherently that "pianistic"?

Instincts are off, I'm afraid. Originally written for the piano. Tschaikovsky was "inspired" by Robert Schumann's  Album for the Young to write his own piano suite for children.

He wrote a reasonable amount of solo piano music, so I guess he thought he had a talent for it, but IMO he never really comes close to exploiting the colours of the instrument in a way he does with an orchestra.

[ajspiano]

Right, I'm struggling with this piece. I suspected I might. I don't like Tschaikovsky for piano, and this hasn't changed my mind.  I can't find a way to play it that doesn't strike me as unbearably twee. I also now can't find a performance that isn't either. The ones I thought were OK are now annoying me just as much as my own playing of it.

Then don't express the sweetness..  rather your disgust for it.

..I understand and accept that I will potentially insult one or more purists with this video.

[j_menz]

Then don't express the sweetness..  rather your disgust for it.

That's option B; I'm still hoping to come up with something profound. Even if I have to put it there.

..I understand and accept that I will potentially insult one or more purists with this video.

Strangely, I'm not sure that there are any Tschaikovsky purists, outside the world of ballet.

Loved the vid, by the way. Cheered me up about it no end. 

[keypeg]

Instincts are off, I'm afraid. Originally written for the piano. Tschaikovsky was "inspired" by Robert Schumann's  Album for the Young to write his own piano suite for children.

He wrote a reasonable amount of solo piano music, so I guess he thought he had a talent for it, but IMO he never really comes close to exploiting the colours of the instrument in a way he does with an orchestra.

That does actually confirm my instinct.  I didn't wonder whether it was written for another instrument but whether he was primarily a composer for other instruments.  Chopin, for example, was a pianist who composed, sort of, as I understand it.

[starstruck5]

Then don't express the sweetness..  rather your disgust for it.

..I understand and accept that I will potentially insult one or more purists with this video.

The problem with this approach is that it will inevitably divide people into camps -all those who dislike the piece will vote for this kind of mocking version -I believe it is better to withdraw than butcher the piece-

Another idea though, is to extend the set pieces -I know that the concept is that we share a learning experience, but this could encompass more than one piece surely??? Another advantage is that more variety offers less repetition and a potentially greater attention span for listeners, when the time comes to post videos -

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I didn't even start it yet.

[costicina]

Then don't express the sweetness..  rather your disgust for it.

..I understand and accept that I will potentially insult one or more purists with this video.

The final part of your version is really  cool !!!!

[keypeg]

Re: mocking version.  I expected to hear a sarcastic exaggeration.  If I had the physical skills, I could do it without my playing fall apart in the places.  You'd do everything in exaggeration: sweeping rubato with dramatic pauses, exaggerated crescendos and sudden drops in dynamics, the accompanying chords suddenly swelling in great passion - slower.  Make it oh so sugary, and oh so corny emotional, and you'll have sarcasm.

[starstruck5]

Re: mocking version.  I expected to hear a sarcastic exaggeration.  If I had the physical skills, I could do it without my playing fall apart in the places.  You'd do everything in exaggeration: sweeping rubato with dramatic pauses, exaggerated crescendos and sudden drops in dynamics, the accompanying chords suddenly swelling in great passion - slower.  Make it oh so sugary, and oh so corny emotional, and you'll have sarcasm.

Another form of butchery -if you feel like that about a piece -don't play it -what's the point?
This is becomeing very negative sadly -

[ajspiano]

I wasn't actually suggesting anyone submit a tchaikmockski performance. I get to do these things because I'm the creator and thus, omnipotent.

No seriously, it was purely a response to j_menz's winge. I quite like the piece despite all its 'twee' (which I also had to google). I don't mind if people screw around with it now, but I think submitted videos for the contest should be as the composer wrote the notes, and interpreted in a 'appropriate' manner.

I like starstrucks idea re varying the piece however I do think that would significantly broaden the gap between the less experienced and more experienced - and so is probably not the best move here. It would be a cool idea for a subsequent competition perhaps if enough people where up for it.

Keypeg, I originally tried to do the 'mocking' version in the way you expected - but on looking back at it it seemed more like sloppy playing than a deliberate message.. Probably just my limited skill set..  Im sure I could do it if I had the work memorised rather than be trying to alter it and read it at the same time.

Also, keypeg - your post re dynamics/interpretation was pretty much exactly what I meant.. Though I don't feel that what I meant is that relavent - it's a dynamic conversation, the content is not just up to me.

[keypeg]

Another form of butchery -if you feel like that about a piece -don't play it -what's the point?
This is becoming very negative sadly -

Sorry, I was actually being playful.  And I mean literally at the piano.  Trying to play in different ways, exaggerating those ways, I think helps hear in different ways, explore what is behind expression.  The first time I just played some parts through to see if I could do it, I had a romantic "cliche" going that my teacher pointed out.  It is something that I always do from before I knew him - this languid slow-down and going quieter - which gets old fast.  I didn't even know I was doing it.  By deliberately exaggerating it, I dunno, it seems to give me something.  Remember that I'm more at the beginning than the end of learning.  But I was not being negative.

[j_menz]

I wasn't actually suggesting anyone submit a tchaikmockski performance. I get to do these things because I'm the creator and thus, omnipotent.

No seriously, it was purely a response to j_menz's winge. I quite like the piece despite all its 'twee' (which I also had to google). I don't mind if people screw around with it now, but I think submitted videos for the contest should be as the composer wrote the notes, and interpreted in a 'appropriate' manner.

I was never going to submit a satire of the piece.  That said, AJs contribution did actually help me immensly. I was trying to stay to close to the conception I had, which wasn't working and didn't like. I needed to break the mould in order to remake it anew. I now have some ideas for a proper interpretation that will avoid tweeness. We'll have to see how that works out.  As a means to an end, that sort of butchery can be enormously effective. I knew that, but in the moment forgot it.

Oh, and AJ: people who claim omnipotence generally wind up with those fashion challenged coats with the very long sleeves. 

[ajspiano]

Oh, and AJ: people who claim omnipotence generally wind up with those fashion challenged coats with the very long sleeves. 

I'm not sure that claiming omnipotence over a web-forum competition counts as a step down that path. However, I will exercise caution in future.. and try not to create anything more tangible, like a new species of animal for example..   at least not in public view.

[outin]

and try not to create anything more tangible, like a new species of animal for example.. 

Oh please do! I'd love to have some kind of a mix between a cat and a spider 

[ajspiano]

Oh please do! I'd love to have some kind of a mix between a cat and a spider 

Its been done.

[outin]

Its been done.

Wow, that's the cutest thing ever!
When can I expect the delivery? 

[ajspiano]

Wow, that's the cutest thing ever!
When can I expect the delivery? 

Never. I killed it on sight.

[j_menz]

Never. I killed it on sight.

Damn. I'd wondered where Snuggles had wandered off to. It was the only thing that could control my goldfish! 

[outin]

Never. I killed it on sight.

You are a bad man

[costicina]

 Ehm, sorry if I came back to Tchaikowsy  (the least funny thing of this great thread), but I've discussed the interpretation's issue with Costanza, experimenting with two approaches. At first she seemed to like better a more restrained, sober rendition. Then she realized that  exaggerating dynamics, agogics etc. (of course calibrating the 'adding up' process)  has an amazingly good effect...
In short: you can't ask Ken Follet to write like Raymond Carver

[keypeg]

Pardon my ignorance.  Agogics means?