Pizzacato on piano?

[carrie10]

I've recently come across a piece marked pizz.  Is it possible to play pizzacato on he piano?  If so, how is it employed?  I greatly appreciate any insight.  Thanks!

[asuhayda]

Interesting.. are you sure it's not an interpretive suggestion?

I actually saw a performance by Anderson and Roe where one of them was under the lid plucking the strings with their fingers.. but I'm not sure if any traditional music would call for this.  I know that there is also a new "Fluid" piano that has a harp like addition to it that you could pluck like pizzacato...

other than that, maybe they just mean play it extremely staccato or something?  I honestly don't know.

What's the piece?

[faulty_damper]

What's the piece?

[quantum]

Is is an orchestral reduction?

[lloyd_cdb]

You shouldn't leave hot pizza on your piano.  (pizza caldo!! GET IT?!?!?   )

Yeah, just as asuhayda said, it's a rarity to see in classical piano music, and occasionally used in modern 'classical' piano (i guess?).  Given the fluid piano isn't all that old, it's doubtful the piece is meant for it (but please correct me if I'm wrong).  Most likely it's a transcription from another instrument or orchestral reduction as quantum said.  I can't think of any other possible explanation.

Are you sure it's actually a piano piece? 

[pianoman53]

Either it's a very modern piece, or it's a romantic piece..
If it's a modern piece, you should probably do an actual pizzicato, on the string...

Though, somehow I doubt it's a modern piece. If it's romantic, I wouldn't take it too literally. A very big part of the romantic music was to imagine something that was impossible to do.
Schumann wrote accents on a sustained note, which is impossible to do.. you know, since it's sustained note. He also wrote a singing line as a middle staff, in his Arabesque, with the text "Don't sing it out loud, but in your head"-sort of... Aaaand he wrote (with italian words): "As fast as you" can on one bar, and "Even faster" some bars later.
Chopin (and many many more) wrote crescendo on a single tone.
Liszt wrote, in his sonetto del petrarca no 104, "vibrato".

Pizzicato would not be very strange to notate. It's more as if you would hear it as a pizzicato than just a staccato. It's different!

[carrie10]

Thanks for the feedback!  The piece is an arrangement of Canon in D by Robert Schultz (duet).  I too, highly doubt that a literal pizzacato is meant.  However, using pizzacato as suggestive imagery while playing is a great idea!  Thanks!

[nyiregyhazi]

Have a listen from about 11 minutes in. I've never heard anyone else who captures the near-literal sound of pizzicato as well as Volodos.

[cmg]

Thanks for the feedback!  The piece is an arrangement of Canon in D by Robert Schultz (duet).  I too, highly doubt that a literal pizzacato is meant.  However, using pizzacato as suggestive imagery while playing is a great idea!  Thanks!

Hey, I actually know Robert Schultz!  He's currently based in Pittsburgh, PA.  If Bob writes pizzicato, he means it:  a sharp, plucked attack on the keyboard, NOT literally plucking the strings.

[gn622]

Have a listen from about 11 minutes in. I've never heard anyone else who captures the near-literal sound of pizzicato as well as Volodos.

Wow!

[werq34ac]

Important to note that a pizzicato sound does not mean AS FREAKING SHORT AS POSSIBLE as some of you are suggesting. Go listen to an orchestra. Listen to the sound of a pizzicato. Then try to emulate it on the piano. It should be a "round" staccato rather than a sharp and short staccato.

[sucom]

I've never heard of pizzicato on the piano before, but if I tried to emulate the sound, I think the closest way I can perhaps think of achieving it would be something similar to 'dabbing' the keyboard using a forearm movement and a level wrist.  It's very difficult to describe in words.

[cmg]

Oikay, here's another example of pizzicato for all you doubting Thomases:  Francesco Libetta dishes up a whole plate-load of pizzicato:

[sucom]

Wow, that's novel! 

[nyiregyhazi]

Important to note that a pizzicato sound does not mean AS FREAKING SHORT AS POSSIBLE as some of you are suggesting. Go listen to an orchestra. Listen to the sound of a pizzicato. Then try to emulate it on the piano. It should be a "round" staccato rather than a sharp and short staccato.

Volodos' is extremely short and I've never heard a better emulation. Why should it be round, rather than crisp?

[sucom]

Volodos' is extremely short and I've never heard a better emulation. Why should it be round, rather than crisp?

Hi
I tend to agree with werq about a more rounded staccato rather than a staccato which is too short and crisp. Plucking the strings on a stringed instrument tends to produce a certain amount of natural resonance, whereas playing crisp staccato on the piano doesn't tend to have quite the same effect. The only thing I would add, though, is that I'm quite surprised to see the term pizzicato being used for a piano piece, so I feel there would be room for manouvre on individual interpretation.  As far as I'm aware, there is no standard practice involving pizzicato for pianists, unless of course the pianist gets off the stool and begins plucking the strings with his fingers. 

[nyiregyhazi]

Hi
I tend to agree with werq about a more rounded staccato rather than a staccato which is too short and crisp. Plucking the strings on a stringed instrument tends to produce a certain amount of natural resonance, whereas playing crisp staccato on the piano doesn't tend to have quite the same effect. The only thing I would add, though, is that I'm quite surprised to see the term pizzicato being used for a piano piece, so I feel there would be room for manouvre on individual interpretation.  As far as I'm aware, there is no standard practice involving pizzicato for pianists, unless of course the pianist gets off the stool and begins plucking the strings with his fingers.  

it's not at all unusual. There is a symbol that is regularly used. In the past, I used to add a touch of length to virtually all staccato notes. I still believe that certain places require this. However, I since came to realise that the reason I did so on virtually everything was inadequate control, when I did truly short notes. Listening to volodos, you can hear quite how short it can be, if you have tonal control. Given how effectively he can do it, I'm increasingly inclined to view lengthening pizzicato notes as cheating to compensate for a lack of fine control.

Also, given the echo in anywhere but the worst concert venues, the acoustic is usually enough to emulate the after sound from a string pizzicato. The real problem is controlling sharp staccato tonally.

[sucom]

it's not at all unusual. There is a symbol that is regularly used. In the past, I used to add a touch of length to virtually all staccato notes. I still believe that certain places require this. However, I since came to realise that the reason I did so on virtually everything was inadequate control, when I did truly short notes. Listening to volodos, you can hear quite how short it can be, if you have tonal control. Given how effectively he can do it, I'm increasingly inclined to view lengthening pizzicato notes as cheating to compensate for a lack of fine control.

Also, given the echo in anywhere but the worst concert venues, the acoustic is usually enough to emulate the after sound from a string pizzicato. The real problem is controlling sharp staccato tonally.

Hi
Well, we must be moving in different circles because playing pizzicato or reading signs of pizzicato on piano music is new to me and I've played a lot of music over the years.  You mention that pizzicato is standard for pianists and I would like to believe this but am struggling to do so.  Can you suggest a piano piece where I might be able to find an indication of playing pizzicato so that I can look it up for myself?  If I find one, then I will just have to agree that it is indeed standard practice for pianists.     Until then, I have to remain sceptical because that's just my way!

I don't feel that a pizzicato sound is as sharp a sound as you are suggesting.  For years, I have played the piano and cello and have never considered the piano to be able to effectively reproduce the pizzicato sound in the same way as my cello.  I would have thought that is why pizzicato is generally a term used for string players plucking the strings, rather than for the more percussive action of a piano.  I can't help but wonder to myself, if pizzicato is meant to be short and crisp on the piano, why not simply use the more standard staccato or staccatissimo sign?  Why use the term pizzicato at all, unless it suggests a slightly different approach to regular staccato and staccatissimo? 

I think I'm basically thinking why use the term pizzicato at all?  Surely it's not a regular, standard term for the piano? 

[sucom]

By the way, I do tend to agree with you that adding length to a staccato note which should actually be very crisp can indeed indicate a lack of control on the part of the player.  In fact, it may be possible that some players ARE getting a pizzicato sound by accident, due to a lack of control.  But aren't we talking about deliberate pizzicato here?

[nyiregyhazi]

Well, we must be moving in different circles because playing pizzicato or reading signs of pizzicato on piano music is new to me and I've played a lot of music over the years.  You mention that pizzicato is standard for pianists and I would like to believe this but am struggling to do so.  Can you suggest a piano piece where I might be able to find an indication of playing pizzicato so that I can look it up for myself?  If I find one, then I will just have to agree that it is indeed standard practice for pianists.    Until then, I have to remain sceptical because that's just my way!

Okay, I'll have to hold my hand up here- I'd thought that the triangle sign was taken to mean pizzicato. I just checked and apparently it actually means very short but not specifically pizzicato. Personally, I don't think it's wrong to see it as being effectively the same practical instruction on a pragmatic level- although I realise now that it's not technically the same indication, on a literal level.  

That said, for me, the Volodos example is for me the closest thing I have ever heard to a literal pizzicato sound (and he certainly doesn't make them long). For me, either pizzicato or staccatisimo is extremely effective with that quality of sound.

[cmg]

Thanks for the feedback!  The piece is an arrangement of Canon in D by Robert Schultz (duet).  I too, highly doubt that a literal pizzacato is meant.  However, using pizzacato as suggestive imagery while playing is a great idea!  Thanks!

Okay, here's the OFFICIAL word on this particular score indication ("pizz.") of "Canon in D," arranged by Robert Schultz.  Bob emailed me to say that his arrangements and transcriptions, most particularly this one, include "pizz." to indicate what the original orchestral score notates as a guide to performing the transcription or arrangement on the piano.  When the strings are pizzicato, he indicates that in the piano transcription.  It's just a guide to producing the sound.  Period.  Full stop.

Everybody wins! 

[sucom]

Hi cmg
Thats good news indeed!   

But now, after reading nyiregyhazi's post it's got me thinking.  In my mind I'm hearing orchestral pizzicato sections and thinking about it, they can sound very short and crisp at times.  So now I'm in two minds about this.  At different times there can be a resonant sound AND a short crisp sound!  Hmmmmm.....

I'm glad that pizzicato is generally aimed at string players because not knowing or understanding exactly how to reproduce a sound on the piano isn't the most comfortable place to be.

[werq34ac]

I generally see triangles as marcatissimo as opposed to staccatissimo. Just my take. However, I don't think it's a lack of tonal control. I'm playing Beethoven's Pastorale Sonata right now and in the 2nd movement the LH is clearly a cello pizzicato. Let me just say that it doesn't work if it's too short.

[nyiregyhazi]

I generally see triangles as marcatissimo as opposed to staccatissimo. Just my take. However, I don't think it's a lack of tonal control. I'm playing Beethoven's Pastorale Sonata right now and in the 2nd movement the LH is clearly a cello pizzicato. Let me just say that it doesn't work if it's too short.

What if you add a touch more tone? For me this a classic case of a situation where the notes cannot be "too short"- only inadequately articulated to make their mark. I'd personally be looking to make them as brief as possible (except the bass notes perhaps, which might warrant a tiny differentiation in length)- produced by a single stroke of a finger that doesn't strive to linger as the keybed for even an instant. Rather than make them longer, I'd strive to get enough tone for them to register in the ear properly. Only if they are both too quiet and short do they really get lost (especially if played with a negative style of movement, rather than very deliberate intent).

I just listened to a bit of Brendel and Schnabel on youtube- both of whom lengthen the notes significantly and neither came close to the pizzicato quality that Volodos captures with shorter attacks (albeit in a different piece)

[werq34ac]

I think we're forgetting that there are multiple ways to play a pizzicato. There are harsh and percussive pizzicatos and there are melodic pizzicatos and everything in between. In fact, there are physically different ways to do pizzicato. You can pizzicato from the air, pizzicato gripping the fingerboard with your thumb, pizzicato with your left hand as opposed to your bow hand, pizzicato with your thumb, etc. And then there's orchestral pizzicatos and pizzicatos by a soloist. And then there's instrument, violin pizzicatos, cello pizzicatos, jazz bass pizzicatos, etc. There's also guitar pizzicatos.

Volodos' pizzicato, while getting very close literally, I feel lacks body in his sound. His staccatissimos while having fantastic tonal control are little more than blips of sound. I don't feel like pizzicatos are blips of sound. Even the most aggressive are not as short as volodos plays them. Volodos uses the resonance of the room to achieve any resonance on his pizzicato, and for me, it's not enough.


Another example of piano pizzicato use are the last two notes of the 1st movement of the Pastorale sonata. Too short and they become too dry.

[nyiregyhazi]

I think we're forgetting that there are multiple ways to play a pizzicato. There are harsh and percussive pizzicatos and there are melodic pizzicatos and everything in between. In fact, there are physically different ways to do pizzicato. You can pizzicato from the air, pizzicato gripping the fingerboard with your thumb, pizzicato with your left hand as opposed to your bow hand, pizzicato with your thumb, etc. And then there's orchestral pizzicatos and pizzicatos by a soloist. And then there's instrument, violin pizzicatos, cello pizzicatos, jazz bass pizzicatos, etc. There's also guitar pizzicatos.

Absolutely. I think I should remind you that the comment I was actually responding to read:

It should be a "round" staccato rather than a sharp and short staccato.


Indeed, there's not one single quality- that invalidates a short sharp attack. Depending on the context, it's common for the start of a pizzicato to be the only part that significantly registers in the ear- with the softer sustain that follows frequently being masked virtually altogether by other instruments in an orchestra. In a resonant hall, the echo of a released piano note can be enough to render the fact that the string is still technically sounding on a string instrument virtually insignificant. In either case, you can often hear a sharp attack followed by a prolongation that is severely gentle by comparison. A longish piano note is just a longish note, for me. Personally, while I respect the right of others to go differently, I have never heard a longish pianistic attack that made me think I was literally hearing the instant of a real-life pizzicato. Volodos is the only pianist I have heard who made me seriously wonder whether I was hearing the real deal- rather than the most transparently blatant attempt at approximate emulation. I recall that the effect was even more remarkable in a real life concert hall when I heard him play that piece live. Brendel and Schnabel sound altogether like pianists playing the piano in the Pastoral movement you mentioned. That doesn't make longer attacks invalid as one option, but such sounds could never even begin to make me wonder whether I was hearing an actual plucked string or a pianist playing on a piano. The fact that only shorter attacks have ever conjured up a significant illusion makes me feel that it's rather short sighted to write them off as supposedly being an unacceptable option.

[werq34ac]

Here's an example of a very short L.H of the Sonata

While getting quite close to the pizzicato of a cello, it lacks the "body" of sound that a cello pizzicato has. I feel the same with Volodos' pizzicato. While getting very close to the actual sound, the sound doesn't have enough "body" for my tastes.

[nyiregyhazi]

Here's an example of a very short L.H of the Sonata

While getting quite close to the pizzicato of a cello, it lacks the "body" of sound that a cello pizzicato has. I feel the same with Volodos' pizzicato. While getting very close to the actual sound, the sound doesn't have enough "body" for my tastes.

Ultimately, you have to compromise in some way when you emulate it on a piano. I'm not a Barenboim fan and neither do I feel he competes with Volodos in pizzicato stakes. However, he gets a sense of the "pluck"- even if it misses the sustain of a cello. Ultimately, this is what is most important to a pizzicato character, for me. If a sacrifice is to be made, sod the sustain. It's the quality of the attack that is most distinctive to the character of the real deal. A long note kills the sense of emulation and sounds blandly pianistic. Listen to Brendel's audio version on youtube (which is just plain lazy- with a drastically inconsistent length from note to note, that is defined primarily by the most convenient pedalling and that scarcely even begins to emulate the plucked quality of the real deal).

If you can point us to an example of longer notes that you feel offers a better emulation, I'm open to listening. However, I've never yet heard longer notes that truly capture the quality. I'd sooner hear plucked quality minus sustain, than the overly consistent prolongation that comes from a longer piano note. Some people try effects that involve almost complete damping a note, but capturing a trace of resonance via the damper pedal- but I've never yet been convinced by that either. Murray Perahia tries something a little like this in the first melody of the Chopin first Ballade (not pizzicato - but with a sense of partial staccato, but I personally have yet to hear any pianist who actually sounds good, rather than as if they are trying too hard to be "clever" without really achieving anything terrible effective).

[johnannsb]

to play pizz on piano you have to place you hand on the strings and play...I am assuming this is a modern piece.