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Education goals based on race.... (Read 1203 times)

Offline Bob

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Education goals based on race....
« on: November 13, 2012, 11:49:01 PM »
It's scary because it's true.   ::)  I can't believe some group of people actually thought this was a good idea.

http://www.nwpr.org/post/firestorm-erupts-over-virginias-education-goals

http://tampa.cbslocal.com/2012/10/12/florida-passes-plan-for-racially-based-academic-goals/


I believe it's x% of each group that has to pass the test, not that that's the score required on the test.

And I haven't seen any mention of Indian (from India), Native American, or other/mut.


I read a comment mentioning, "Not separate, but not equal," that sounds like it's accurate for this.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Education goals based on race....
«Reply #1 on: November 14, 2012, 07:59:47 AM »
It's just a proposal.  If it ever gets action, that national group that protects the rights of people will sue them.

Offline outin

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Re: Education goals based on race....
«Reply #2 on: November 14, 2012, 08:26:31 AM »
This is an eternal problem when it comes to education...Equal opportunity/equal education versus different needs. We have a schooling system that offers the same to everyone until very late. So now those who have lots of learning problems and those who would need much less teaching and more challenges do suffer, while the general population is well off. They are trying to supplement for those who have language issues or learning disabilities, but of course there's never enough resource.

I did not actually open the links but considering the thread title I think the biggest problem here would be defining anything by "race" which is completely outdated and probably only happens in USA these days...

Offline iansinclair

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Re: Education goals based on race....
«Reply #3 on: November 14, 2012, 02:08:24 PM »
"only happens in the US"?  Oh dear, I do wish that were true... but I dare say that a in France might disagree with you, or a Pakistani in Britain or a Turk in Germany...

One of the real problems -- other than discrimination (whether based on race or anything else) -- is a confusion between equal opportunity and equal outcome.  US President Kennedy was firm for equal opportunity, and indeed that should be the goal.  He said nothing about equal outcome, and a few moments thought will show that equal outcome is undesirable -- and yet that's more measurable and more obvious, so that's where things tend to go.

The really disadvantaged people in an equal outcome environment are not the folks with learning problems and challenges, but the genuinely gifted and talented -- who are simply ignored.
Ian

Offline outin

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Re: Education goals based on race....
«Reply #4 on: November 14, 2012, 02:18:46 PM »
"only happens in the US"?  Oh dear, I do wish that were true... but I dare say that a in France might disagree with you, or a Pakistani in Britain or a Turk in Germany...

My experience is that "race" as a concept is hardly ever used in Europe. We talk about different cultural backgrounds, nationalities or different religious groups, but not race. This does not mean that there's no discrimination against minorities/immigrants, I was just referrring to the unscientific and outdated concept of "race" that is still widely used in US.

Offline iansinclair

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Re: Education goals based on race....
«Reply #5 on: November 14, 2012, 06:33:15 PM »
My experience is that "race" as a concept is hardly ever used in Europe. We talk about different cultural backgrounds, nationalities or different religious groups, but not race. This does not mean that there's no discrimination against minorities/immigrants, I was just referrring to the unscientific and outdated concept of "race" that is still widely used in US.
Widely used... in the US.  And Canada.  And Australia.  And China.  And Burma.  And... the problem isn't what is used to designate a group of people which is looked down and treated differently; "race" happens to be handy and more visible than some others in countries where there is a substantial group of people of a different visible ethnicity, but language will do, as will dress (anyone wear a hijab?), manners and customs, shape of nose...

The US does make a handy target, and we do have an unfortunate history of treating "races" (whether they be people of colour, the Irish, native americans, Japanese... doesn't matter).  So do most other countries.  The answer is to recognise prejudice where it occurs -- of whatever form and based on whatever criteria, both in one's self and in one's society -- and work to overcome it.  That isn't easy.
Ian

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Education goals based on race....
«Reply #6 on: November 14, 2012, 07:38:29 PM »
The US does make a handy target, and we do have an unfortunate history of treating "races" (whether they be people of colour, the Irish, native americans, Japanese... doesn't matter).  So do most other countries.  The answer is to recognise prejudice where it occurs -- of whatever form and based on whatever criteria, both in one's self and in one's society -- and work to overcome it.  That isn't easy.

Covert racism is very rampant.  For example, Arizona's governor happens to be racist.  (She's white, btw.)  She doesn't like the Hispanic population nor does she like president Obama.  The recent immigration and voting laws in that state indirectly targeted Hispanics.  Very few media outlets seized upon these facts in any substantial way, probably because media outlets are run by whites.  If you don't look like us (white people) then you are against us (Hispanics).

Is it any better now that racism is looked down upon?  Whereas before, racism was overt; you knew who the racists were.  Now, racists have token black friends and openly support equal opportunity yet behaviorally, nothing has changed.  They just hide it better.

Offline iansinclair

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Re: Education goals based on race....
«Reply #7 on: November 14, 2012, 08:20:20 PM »
I would be very surprised indeed if any one of us on this forum could honestly say that he or she is not prejudiced (biased) against some other group or groups -- unless they happen to be Jesus ben Joseph, late of Nazareth.  To hide under the argument that the bias is not based on colour or race is fooling one's self.  As I said before, the trick is to recognise one's own biases, and then guard against them.
Ian

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Education goals based on race....
«Reply #8 on: November 14, 2012, 08:53:40 PM »
I'm very well aware my own biases and attitudes.  i can very explicitly list them but then I'd sound a racist even though I'm not.  I just have racial attitudes and stereotypes about certain groups of people.

I have negative attitudes toward almost all races.  I have negative attitudes toward stupid people.  I have negative attitudes toward Americans.  I have negative attitudes toward teachers.  I have negative attitudes toward ________, etc. etc.

But the point is that I'm aware of them and can acknowledge them very openly.  For some reason, this makes people either comfortable or aversive toward me.  The ones who are comfortable are the ones I like and who like me.  The ones who are aversive are the ones who don't acknowledge their own attitudes and are fearful about them.

Offline outin

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Re: Education goals based on race....
«Reply #9 on: November 14, 2012, 09:02:14 PM »
I would be very surprised indeed if any one of us on this forum could honestly say that he or she is not prejudiced (biased) against some other group or groups -- unless they happen to be Jesus ben Joseph, late of Nazareth.  To hide under the argument that the bias is not based on colour or race is fooling one's self.  As I said before, the trick is to recognise one's own biases, and then guard against them.

Of course we are all biased. But what you don't seem to understand that thinking about "race" or "colour" is something that is very  much ingrained in the US culture and learned already as a child in a way that does not happen in many other countries. This is just an observation (and a view that is shared by US scientists as well), I am not trying to bash the US people. The discourse is different from our point of view, even though the basic issues about equality are the same.

I have never felt so alien being the only "white" person in a place/situation as I did in the US. It was completely different to anything I had experienced elsewhere and the "natives" seemed to think it as something completely normal. I found it strange so it encouraged made me study the subject a bit deeper.

There are of course many other cultures in the world where skin colour has a lot of meaning, I was mainly thinking about countries that in other cultural aspects share a lot with the US.


Offline ajspiano

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Re: Education goals based on race....
«Reply #10 on: November 14, 2012, 09:25:20 PM »
I have no issue with people of any group as individuals. However, other people's various forms of rascism have certainly impacted me.

Since we're talking about education..
When I was in highschool I know for certain that one particular person was paid by a government body to attend. And it was a racial thing that would not have been extended to someone with my background. Clearly there was a different educational aim here..  Attendance vs academic capability - and I wasn't getting paid for achieving my goal on a daily basis.

I remember finding this particularly unfair because the said person had a free ride to the AFL under the father/son rule. He knew this, and it's probably why he didn't bother with school.. Only showing up for some extra cash every so often. The system clearly worked like a charm.

Offline iansinclair

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Re: Education goals based on race....
«Reply #11 on: November 14, 2012, 10:14:53 PM »


I have never felt so alien being the only "white" person in a place/situation as I did in the US. It was completely different to anything I had experienced elsewhere and the "natives" seemed to think it as something completely normal. I found it strange so it encouraged made me study the subject a bit deeper.



Try being an American Indian in, say, Birmingham, UK... it's scary.
Ian

Offline outin

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Re: Education goals based on race....
«Reply #12 on: November 14, 2012, 10:30:34 PM »
Try being an American Indian in, say, Birmingham, UK... it's scary.
Oh yes, there's racism in Europe too. There's a slight difference though. The race is usually more an excuse than the real issue. Any group that is different will do as the enemy. These problems concentrate on the areas with lots of social and economic challenges.

Things are surely changing in the US with the younger generations, but the signifigance of cultural meanings just change very slowly.

Offline lloyd_cdb

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Re: Education goals based on race....
«Reply #13 on: November 14, 2012, 10:54:51 PM »
I have never felt so alien being the only "white" person in a place/situation as I did in the US. It was completely different to anything I had experienced elsewhere and the "natives" seemed to think it as something completely normal. I found it strange so it encouraged made me study the subject a bit deeper.

Try going to India or Japan.  I've been to both and never felt so strange.  In Japan, within 6 hours of walking off the plane I got approached by a group of Japanese schoolgirls that wanted to take a picture with me.  I was the first white person they had see in 16ish years.  BTW, they actually did the peace sign and jumped in the air, I giggled.  When I was in India, I literally got poked because they thought I was fake.

Of course we are all biased. But what you don't seem to understand that thinking about "race" or "colour" is something that is very  much ingrained in the US culture and learned already as a child in a way that does not happen in many other countries. This is just an observation (and a view that is shared by US scientists as well), I am not trying to bash the US people. The discourse is different from our point of view, even though the basic issues about equality are the same.
Oh yes, there's racism in Europe too. There's a slight difference though. The race is usually more an excuse than the real issue. Any group that is different will do as the enemy. These problems concentrate on the areas with lots of social and economic challenges.

I'm not completely sure what you're saying here, so correct me if I'm going off in a random direction. 

Personally, I believe "racism" is generally "class-ism" in the US.  Don't get me wrong, racism definitely exists. But when I walk through Harlem wearing jeans and a hoodie I don't get stared at even though I'm the only white person.  If I walk through in my khaki's, boat shoes, button down, a half zip sweater with my hair parted, you can bet your ass everyone is staring at me.
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Offline outin

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Re: Education goals based on race....
«Reply #14 on: November 15, 2012, 04:39:23 AM »
Try going to India or Japan.  I've been to both and never felt so strange.  In Japan, within 6 hours of walking off the plane I got approached by a group of Japanese schoolgirls that wanted to take a picture with me.  I was the first white person they had see in 16ish years.  BTW, they actually did the peace sign and jumped in the air, I giggled.  When I was in India, I literally got poked because they thought I was fake.
That is all about novelty. I would expect the same treatment if I go to an African village where no white man has been seen before. But that was definitely not the case in US. The interesting thing was that the athmosphere immediately changed when it turned out that I was a foreigner. I was no longer a "white person" but instead a "foreign person" and obviously not considered a threat anymore. The hostility/suspicion was replaced by the same sort of curiosity as you describe.

BTW: Are you sure the Japanese girls just didn't find you irresistibly handsome? Or maybe you are more famous than you think?  ;D

Personally, I believe "racism" is generally "class-ism" in the US.  Don't get me wrong, racism definitely exists. But when I walk through Harlem wearing jeans and a hoodie I don't get stared at even though I'm the only white person.  If I walk through in my khaki's, boat shoes, button down, a half zip sweater with my hair parted, you can bet your ass everyone is staring at me.
We just have a different view here. You are talking about racism as an act, I am talking about "race"or skin colour as an identifying factor. In US it is seems to be used as such still (not by everyone, but by many if not most) while in most European countries is has either never been so (because there was no need due to the absence of such differences) or has been replaced by other factors (nationality, religion, ethnic group, social class etc.).

Offline vsrinivasa

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Re: Education goals based on race....
«Reply #15 on: December 24, 2012, 07:05:21 PM »
As an Indian, I can say that in India, this type of thing is much less common, but that is because there are far fewer non-Indians than there are non-whites in America. America has so many races that this type of thing is much more common here. Although in India everyone stares at me because I am about a foot taller than most Indians.. :) or  ???; I can't decide whether being tall is good or not.
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Offline emill

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Re: Education goals based on race....
«Reply #16 on: December 25, 2012, 02:38:32 PM »
Quote
Here's what the Virginia state board of education actually did. It looked at students' test scores in reading and math and then proposed new passing rates. In math it set an acceptable passing rate at 82 percent for Asian students, 68 percent for whites, 52 percent for Latinos, 45 percent for blacks and 33 percent for kids with disabilities.

It is simply discriminatory.  It does not recognize that within ethnic groups, there are significant disparity between individual abilities in math and reading.  Being Asian, but weak in math will now be a big disadvantage if higher scores are required versus whites or blacks since they will require lower passing scores.  What a tragedy!!
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