Throwing out the elbow, thumb scrunching.

[peter_gr]

Have just obtained a new piano reference book, which comes fairly highly recommended. I am focusing on technique at the moment, doing C major without scrunching the thumb. I eagerly sought out the relevant passage in this new tome.

Anyway, "The Piano Handbook", by Carl Humphries, first edition 2002, p51:

"After we play the first three notes with thumb and first two fingers, we pass the thumb under after the 3rd finger and place it on the fourth note."

and a bit later

"When passing over or under like this, be careful not to let your elbows stick out: make your wrist and fingers/thumb do the work."

Obviously thumb-scrunching is not as frowned upon in some circles as others. What's the deal with the elbows? To make room for the thumb to hit that fourth note without going under the palm, while keeping finger 3 on the prior note for the legato scale, logically the hand has to "yaw". To do that, it has to either bend at the wrist or out goes the elbow a bit to rotate the hand. Also some techniques on youtube appear to roll the hand, meaning the forearm is doing the work, not the fingers.

[faulty_damper]

The technique described is outdated and anyone who uses it will handicap himself.

To play naturally and give your thumb the freedom of movement, the elbow naturally moves outward away from the body.  This removes the strain of passing the thumb directly under the hand.

Return the book and get your money back.

[keypeg]

The technique described is outdated and anyone who uses it will handicap himself.

To play naturally and give your thumb the freedom of movement, the elbow naturally moves outward away from the body.  This removes the strain of passing the thumb directly under the hand.

I agree completely.  During the period that I was self-teaching, I thought it was safe to at least work on scales, and I followed an old book just like that.  I have since seen it demonstrated on a video by I guess an old fashioned teacher - it was put up in another forum - and what I was doing was "correct" which is why the video horrified me more.  I got a stiff hand and was getting numbness in one of them.  Now that I'm with a teacher, we're getting mobility back into my arms and body. I haven't even dared do any music that was "melodic" in the manner of scales, because I had learned that habit so well.

We don't want to "chicken wing" our elbows, which is the other extreme.  But then we have lots of joints, including and especially our wrists.

[peter_gr]

Thanks. Thought I would get a modern up-to-date technique book. Actually it has a lot of information, history, cd, pictures. Don't think I'll get around to do all of the finger exercises it suggests, though, I would rather learn music.

[hmpiano]

I disagree.  Without a still elbow your speed will be limited - you need to scrunch the entire hand instead.  Also, the thumb starts making its way up the keyboard as soon as finger 2 plays.

[hfmadopter]

I disagree.  Without a still elbow you're speed will be limited - you need to scrunch the entire hand instead.  Also, the thumb starts making its way up the keyboard as soon as finger 2 plays.

I don't scrunch the thumb under but I do give a light twist of the wrist and slight roll. The thumb moving under and to the third finger is a natural feeling movement, that slight turn in the wrist will land the thumb solidly on F in the C scale. Some people try to do a scale looking like a seagull taking off the water, elbows flapping at their sides. I've never seen any pro pianist play this way but lots of beginners. I believe I was corrected for that infraction myself early on. However you are allowed to breath sort to speak with a little flex in the forearm, the elbow doesn't have to be taped to ones side.

[hmpiano]

the elbow doesn't have to be taped to ones side.

Quite, quite.

[iansinclair]

Would it be too outrageous to say "it depends"?  I quite agree that one shouldn't look like a chicken trying to take off!  On the other hand, there are some passages -- not usually scales, but very wide arpeggios (think Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 #1, for instance) where a certain amount of elbow movement is going to make things a lot easier...

Also, some people have a good deal more horizontal (left - right) flexibility in their wrists than others.

[keypeg]

Every joint of the body has to be free to move.  That is the bottom line.  Even in musicians who are relatively still in their movements, if you really look you will see micromovements.  An attempt to hold anything motionless will create tension and inhibition. 

[hfmadopter]

Also, some people have a good deal more horizontal (left - right) flexibility in their wrists than others.

True, there are always variables. And I agree with keybeg, there needs to be flexibility in the joints to the degree that is possible. Obviously there are conditions that warrant something outside the norm or accepted norm. Arthritis comes to mind, my teacher had terrible arthritis but got around the keyboard great.

I think though, and at least by my personal observatiuon, if the elbow is leaving the side in a large movement then the wrist is stiff ( meaning in something like scales or shorter phrases). By the same token, if you have large moves to make up and down the keyboard then you need to move what takes the least effort and is most efficient to accomplish the move.

My gripe comes in when a student is first learning scales and the elbow goes way outbound to get the thumb to make it around to the F in a C scale. Seen it many times.

[keypeg]

I think though, and at least by my personal observation, if the elbow is leaving the side in a large movement then the wrist is stiff ( meaning in something like scales or shorter phrases). By the same token, if you have large moves to make up and down the keyboard then you need

There's a chicken and egg for you.  If this is happening, do you tell the person to curtail elbow movement, or do you address the wrist?  If you try to fix the elbow but leave the wrist stiff, then there is going to be tension all over and maybe pain about to happen.  You would have to address both, and maybe even more than that.

I am not writing as a teacher but as a student going through this. 

[hfmadopter]

There's a chicken and egg for you.  If this is happening, do you tell the person to curtail elbow movement, or do you address the wrist?  If you try to fix the elbow but leave the wrist stiff, then there is going to be tension all over and maybe pain about to happen.  You would have to address both, and maybe even more than that.

I am not writing as a teacher but as a student going through this. 

I address it as it comes. In other words, first course of action is to get the elbow at least some what under control,  the wrist to compensate, if that doesn't happen somewhat automatically ( probably won't happen that way). And finally, to practice that sequence of changes! And as has been brought out, much depends on the physical state of the wrist to begin with. So it takes some assessment. We can't assume that all approaches are correct for everyone. It may take a few lessons to get the change working, then reevaluate.

Also remember that I am not a professional teacher. You should listen to yours though !!

[keypeg]

I address it as it comes. In other words, first course of action is to get the elbow at least some what under control,  the wrist to compensate, if that doesn't happen somewhat automatically ( probably won't happen that way). And finally, to practice that sequence of changes! And as has been brought out, much depends on the physical state of the wrist to begin with. So it takes some assessment. We can't assume that all approaches are correct for everyone. It may take a few lessons to get the change working, then reevaluate.

Also remember that I am not a professional teacher. You should listen to yours though !!

Yup.  And since I had motionless elbow, thumb tucking under, but also motionless wrist, the cure had to follow the symptoms.  I did not like how my hands felt a year or so ago.

[hfmadopter]

Yup.  And since I had motionless elbow, thumb tucking under, but also motionless wrist, the cure had to follow the symptoms.  I did not like how my hands felt a year or so ago.

Understandable, something has to give !

[hmpiano]

As hfmadopter says, an elbow swinging out is the sign of a stiff wrist - it has to swing because the wrist has no give.  keypeg is also right - everything is micromoving.

[keypeg]

The bottom line is that someone with a good idea should be observing and giving feedback.  It is possible, for example, that the OP has a good basic movement going on with that swinging elbow, to which a teacher or some kind of guide might add another good movement at the wrist, which will automatically cause the elbow to have a smaller movement.  That is different than trying to suppress the movement and become stiff.  Or, minimizing the movement might cause the wrist to be more active.  Without seeing someone, advice on the internet, or from books, can cause harm.

I have one rule of thumb from my teacher:  If it sounds right and feels comfortable, it probably is right.  A caveat about "feels comfortable" - What you are used to may feel comfortable.  If you get more efficient technique, then in comparison your old "comfortable" will feel like taking a nap on a bed of rocks.

[dangerouswaters]

Thanks. Thought I would get a modern up-to-date technique book. Actually it has a lot of information, history, cd, pictures. Don't think I'll get around to do all of the finger exercises it suggests, though, I would rather learn music.

I am self learning from the same book...I am just on the 11th track and I find it quite challenging...but I love the writing style and how the book is organized!

[clavile]

It's a technique I use, and it works fine. It looks neater. I keep control of it by smoothly rolling my hand a little from the wrist, and bringing my thumb directly under. I do not scrunch my thumb though. I keep it straight, tucking it under my hand as I move towards the next note.  This technique prevents any elbow-jutting, and makes your playing smoother.

I use a special technique developed by a certain teacher to prevent damage to the arms, wrists, and hands.

[lostinidlewonder]

Thumb under when going slow, thumb over when going fast. You try to play passages at extreme velocity with lots of thumb under movements its just inefficient. When we change the shape of our hand we do work, thumb under contracts the hand which we then need to expand again and causes work, you can get away with this at slow tempo requiring a legato touch but if the speed increase it is unnecessary and thumb over is more technically efficient. Some people do thumb under very strangely isolating the movement as a thumb movement and not even moving the hand until the thumb plays the next note, of course one needs to move the hand while doing a thumb under, keeping the entire hand still is inefficient technique. No one can tell the subtle differences in the evenness of the notes when played fast, even Chopin himself stated this.

[keypeg]

This video was posted elsewhere and it bothers me.  First at 4:19 when he tucks his thumb in that extreme way.  When he actually does finally play at 5:26, it's as Lostinidlewonder says in "not" - the hand doesn't move and the thumb moves over.  This is exactly what I used to do in every way, and it's what hurt my hands, especially the left one.  My teacher considered it harmful when I showed him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zJxo8qAtyE

[pianoman53]

Clever guy in the video... He's basically saying that his piano technique is 150 years old, without seeing anything bad about that.

Back to topic: for me, it's important just to recognise the different ways of doing it, and not get stuck (as the man in the video) that there is one correct way. Some teachers like to have a rather "stiff" elbow close to the body, and some teachers like to hang the elbow quite far from the body, and rotate the wrist. Both of them works for me, but they produce a very different sound.

[hfmadopter]

Clever guy in the video... He's basically saying that his piano technique is 150 years old, without seeing anything bad about that.

Back to topic: for me, it's important just to recognise the different ways of doing it, and not get stuck (as the man in the video) that there is one correct way. Some teachers like to have a rather "stiff" elbow close to the body, and some teachers like to hang the elbow quite far from the body, and rotate the wrist. Both of them works for me, but they produce a very different sound.

Well I saw three things out of that video. I picked up the idea that this is one excercise, he stated that this is the thumb under excercise not that this is the only way he plays or that it is the only way to play. Second, he stated that you only practice this slowly and in about a year it will be a natural event to be able to pass the thumb under. He did not say that you rush into this or that you have to hurt yourself. Third, his hands don't seem to hurt.

For all we know he plays thumb over just as well, this video was about thumb under though.

[pianoman53]

I didn't really say any of the things you're arguing about. I simply said that he is happy with a style that is very old.
I didn't even say it was wrong... So I don't know why you're arguing with me...
Though, he talks a lot of crap in the first 5 minutes....
And he keeps making accents on the second finger... which isn't very strange, since he does that thing every time.
So yeah, if you think this is good piano playing, then you are, ofc, perfectly welcome to agree with him.

[keypeg]

Well I saw three things out of that video. I picked up the idea that this is one excercise, he stated that this is the thumb under excercise not that this is the only way he plays or that it is the only way to play. Second, he stated that you only practice this slowly and in about a year it will be a natural event to be able to pass the thumb under. He did not say that you rush into this or that you have to hurt yourself. Third, his hands don't seem to hurt.

For all we know he plays thumb over just as well, this video was about thumb under though.

He was teaching exactly what I learned, in the manner that I learned it.  The reason I looked it up is because when Lostinidlewonder said that of course you don't want to move your thumb while keeping the hand in one place, I had a mental image of having seen him do just that.  So I checked, and he does.  His hand does look tense at the thumb when he is at the extreme of the motion.  Meanwhile what he does in the beginning without playing the piano is exactly the extreme motion that I practised.  I know what it can do to the hand.  I'd be cautious about it.

[clavile]

Thumb under when going slow, thumb over when going fast. You try to play passages at extreme velocity with lots of thumb under movements its just inefficient. When we change the shape of our hand we do work, thumb under contracts the hand which we then need to expand again and causes work, you can get away with this at slow tempo requiring a legato touch but if the speed increase it is unnecessary and thumb over is more technically efficient. Some people do thumb under very strangely isolating the movement as a thumb movement and not even moving the hand until the thumb plays the next note, of course one needs to move the hand while doing a thumb under, keeping the entire hand still is inefficient technique. No one can tell the subtle differences in the evenness of the notes when played fast, even Chopin himself stated this.

When you say "thumb over", are you meaning moving the thumb under sideways?

I move my thumb under my hand from the CMC(carpometacarpal) joint, while rolling my wrist.

[lostinidlewonder]

I mean that the thumb doesn't actually pass under the hand at all, thumb over is a weird description I know, it should be, thumb not going under This requires that you move the hand to the next position which allows the thumb to play without having to go under the hand. Some experimentation with fast scales will make it more clear. There are subtle techniques (very small movements) like slightly raising the wrist to increase angle between the played fingers before you move to the next position to avoid contraction of the hand or to make expansion easier but as you can see it's very clumsy to put these things into words without diagrams/video and a number of musical examples which also then needs to be tested out with your own hands.


That video keypeg is really strange, sure there are times when we need to put the thumb under like for example ... I could imagine LH going 123 1(under on a white note) then 432 on black notes going above and past the thumb. But for most playing we don't have to do such things, if we can avoid it we will play at least with less effort.

[hfmadopter]

I didn't really say any of the things you're arguing about. I simply said that he is happy with a style that is very old.
I didn't even say it was wrong... So I don't know why you're arguing with me...
Though, he talks a lot of crap in the first 5 minutes....
And he keeps making accents on the second finger... which isn't very strange, since he does that thing every time.
So yeah, if you think this is good piano playing, then you are, ofc, perfectly welcome to agree with him.

Just my observations from the video, I don't do it his way anyway. As mentioned in another posting, I use thumb under for sure but I twist and roll the wrist very slightly and tend not to move the thumb further than the third finger. My arm may even move slightly away from my side a bit, I feel the arm should be loose at any rate ( just not flapping like a chicken wing). It was just a mention of something I saw in the video, sorry if it sounding like arguing, that wasn't my intent and it did come off that way. I can sound argumentative sometimes and I don't even care for internet arguments ! Sometimes I just bounce the posting I'm making off a quote and then include other peoples thoughts in my response. I need to learn to kick that habit and stay more on target.

[clavile]

I mean that the thumb doesn't actually pass under the hand at all, thumb over is a weird description I know, it should be, thumb not going under This requires that you move the hand to the next position which allows the thumb to play without having to go under the hand. Some experimentation with fast scales will make it more clear. There are subtle techniques (very small movements) like slightly raising the wrist to increase angle between the played fingers before you move to the next position to avoid contraction of the hand or to make expansion easier but as you can see it's very clumsy to put these things into words without diagrams/video and a number of musical examples which also then needs to be tested out with your own hands.

Huh. I've never heard of that! I'll have to check it out

[keypeg]

That video keypeg is really strange, sure there are times when we need to put the thumb under like for example ... I could imagine LH going 123 1(under on a white note) then 432 on black notes going above and past the thumb. But for most playing we don't have to do such things, if we can avoid it we will play at least with less effort.

This video illustrates what I learned when I was following an old book and when I see that video I see that I learned it all too well.  The minute I demonstrated this to my teacher he knew why I was on the borderline of injury.  The clincher is in what you said, lostinidlewonder, that of course the hand moves.  To overcome this trained habit, I am learning to move the hands and use my arms - exaggerating the part where arm or hand weight goes into the fingers.  I'm not even at playing an 8 note scale because I am getting that first thing in - then scooting the hand over to the next position to make that part alive.  It's one @#$@# remediation of undoing very well practised (unhealthy) habit.  I can find a positive -- if I use just a fraction of the thumb movement that I already practised while scooting over, then I have what I need.

It's because of what I'm going through to undo this that I'm trying to warn people not to go to books written in the 1800's or early 1900's.  They played different music on different instruments, and they usually had teachers watching them.  If you read Czerny's letter to a student, this was daily.  I seem to remember the CHOPIN was fighting against this!

[nyiregyhazi]

I have one rule of thumb from my teacher:  If it sounds right and feels comfortable, it probably is right.  A caveat about "feels comfortable" - What you are used to may feel comfortable.  If you get more efficient technique, then in comparison your old "comfortable" will feel like taking a nap on a bed of rocks.

I wish it were that simple, but it's not always so. Huge amounts of problems come from things that seem the most natural in slow tempos, but which are totally unfit for purpose at higher tempos. If you don't add the additional importance of the above continuing to be the case at virtually any speed (or determine particular requirements beyond the comfort itself) the ethos can fall down. Ironically, it can directly contribute to discomfort, once it's absolutely necessary to speed up out of musical necessity. Even with your caveat, sometimes a thing that feels significantly more comfortable than what had been done before can be a step in the wrong direction.

The thumb issue is a typical case. It's essential both that the arm can lead the thumb and that the thumb can generate independent movement. Although the quoted explanation from the OP is very poor, a lot of people have lazy thumbs due to excess elbow movement. They will be often be more comfortable with this, to start with, than when getting their thumbs active- unless they work at the key position in the moment of transfer.

The best exercise is simply to overhold the 3rd/4th and depress the thumb- so you have to two notes depressed. Take the elbow out plenty to get there- but now start allowing it to ease back in again- until you have a perfectly aligned wrist (created by a sense of lengthening the arm back from the point of contact- and not holding it forwards or significantly out to the side anymore) and an extremely comfortable position.  This typically fixes the issue very quickly. I've students who get into all kinds of bizarre positions start doing a decent quality of movement virtually straight after. The trick is to know what position is both comfortable and functional, then the means of finding it will follow primarily by instinct. After this, you still need to test it though- by playing fast groups of 3 or 4 fingers plus the following thumb.

[nyiregyhazi]

This video was posted elsewhere and it bothers me.  First at 4:19 when he tucks his thumb in that extreme way.  When he actually does finally play at 5:26, it's as Lostinidlewonder says in "not" - the hand doesn't move and the thumb moves over.  This is exactly what I used to do in every way, and it's what hurt my hands, especially the left one.  My teacher considered it harmful when I showed him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zJxo8qAtyE

That's a great exercise for anyone to practise. In many ways the 1/2 bit could be seen as more about the sense of stability of the 2nd finger than about the passing of the thumb. It's difficult precisely because a lazy thumb cannot be compensated for by the arm movements alone, though, which makes it extremely valuable. The key is that the arm still leads- even when the thumb is literally passing under the 2nd. It's not a polarised choice between thumb or arm. One of the most important exercises of all is to be able to play fast scales with only 1 and 2. From there, regular fingerings are a doddle. It's actually those two fingers that screw most things up- when the hand collapses due to poor legato/inadequate finger support and muscles have to tighten to compensate. Alan Fraser talks a lot about these issues and he's absolutely spot on. It's amazing how many accomplished pianists will struggle to play scales with those two fingers. They get away with with more fingers per group, but completely fall apart in that exercise. I can play very fast scales, but still continue to expose slight issues in the quality of connection when I show that exercise to students myself. That problem still exists under the surface and can hinder- even if regular scale fingerings serve to disguise it. While what he shows can be done wrong, it's fundamentally essential to a good technique to have a thumb that is involved in that manner.

(The only adjustment I'd make is to say that when going to larger groups, the thumb is better off going behind each finger as it plays- not going all the way across at once and staying there).

[keypeg]

I wish it were that simple, but it's not always so.

Obviously that is a general principal.  You have to also figure out the close working of a student with a teacher who has a keen eye and ear.  Everything else that you wrote still comes into that principal.  If you write about different parameters when playing fast than when playing slow, it's the same thing, isn't it?  If it doesn't work, isn't comfortable, etc. then something is not ok with it.

[nyiregyhazi]

Obviously that is a general principal.  You have to also figure out the close working of a student with a teacher who has a keen eye and ear.  Everything else that you wrote still comes into that principal.  If you write about different parameters when playing fast than when playing slow, it's the same thing, isn't it?  If it doesn't work, isn't comfortable, etc. then something is not ok with it.

Of course, if something isn't comfortable then something needs to be improved. But if we go from there to:

"If it sounds right and feels comfortable, it probably is right."

It would imply that whatever feels most comfortable at the time is right. It's not as easy as that. An activity of key importance may be tied in to an exertion that needs to be stripped away. However, if you throw away the baby with the bathwater (as so easily happens in many relaxation exercises) you are left with something that feels very comfortable- BUT which may be completely unfit for faster tempos. In my book, that makes it as "wrong" to be depending on this at the slow tempo where you can get away with it as it will be at a fast one where you cannot. For this reason, some of the best practise involves attacking a problem from completely opposite ends, in a single session. Part of the practise is about addition, part is about subtraction. From there you can converge on what is right for the long-term, rather than get stuck in the limitations of what seems most comfortable in the short-term.

Keyboardclass is a case in point. He obsesses over Grindea's flop- which is extremely comfortable at slow tempos. As soon as he tried to play fast, he is outrageously stiff. That's because he's actually too obsessed with comfort in the slow tempo and neglects to learn the key actions that faster tempos depend upon.  Effort stripping exercises are great, but unless you test yourself with fast executions, you cannot know whether you are learning something truly effective. Going for maximum comfort can become severely misleading as a yardstick, without that faster work. At this point, you have to understand everything in specific reference to what works at fast tempos, or you will necessarily stagnate. For players who are not accustomed to fundamental activities that are indispensible, the first stages of developing them will not always be as comfortable as flopping around like a dead fish. In fact, they rarely will be. You have to go out of your comfort zone in order to learn some of the actions that later make the greatest comfort possible.

[keypeg]

However, if you throw away the baby with the bathwater (as so easily happens in many relaxation exercises) you are left with something that feels very comfortable

I was on a "relaxation" tangent quite a few years ago.  It left me with a dead weight that was not comfortable.

- BUT which may be completely unfit for faster tempos.

\
.... where I assume it is either not comfortable, or it no longer sounds good plus being comfortable.  The GENERAL guideline I stated had two components.

For this reason, some of the best practise involves attacking a problem from completely opposite ends, in a single session. Part of the practise is about addition, part is about subtraction. From there you can converge on what is right for the long-term, rather than get stuck in the limitations of what seems most comfortable in the short-term.

Which experimentation brings us right back to finding what works best, sounds good, feels good.

Grindea's flop...

We're outside of methodologies.  Again, I'm talking about working with an observant teacher with plenty of two-way feedback.

Are we not saying the same thing?  Are you seeing things in my word "comfortable" which isn't there?

[nyiregyhazi]

.... where I assume it is either not comfortable, or it no longer sounds good plus being comfortable.  The GENERAL guideline I stated had two components.

Sure, but you didn't specifically state the importance of faster testing. Quite honestly "comfort is best" does not come anywhere near being a rule until there is a certain rate of movement. At earlier stages, this may even necessitate deliberately playing small segments of pieces far too quick- in order to gain feedback. Otherwise the most comfortable feel may not be the most useful.

Which experimentation brings us right back to finding what works best, sounds good, feels good.

Only if we are doing high speed tests. Otherwise it can just as well come back to a level of inadequate activity, as being the most "comfortable". This seems best in the short term but limits long term progress, if you don't make these essential tests. Without clarifying this issue, "comfort" is a totally different thing.

Are we not saying the same thing?  Are you seeing things in my word "comfortable" which isn't there?

Maybe we're saying the same thing, maybe not. The uncertainty is my very point. Some people's "comfort" is a hopelessly dysfunctional lack of activity. I'm currently working on the Chopin 2nd sonata- the finale of which is easy enough in a slow speed but very hard at a high tempo. Generally speaking, the areas where I fall down are where I am TOO comfortable in my slower work. It's not that I seek active discomfort, but the quality of movement that I must ensure each finger performs in my slow work is lightyears out of what I would consider a comfort zone. Right now, the more traditionally "comfortable" the slower work (as the word is understood by most), the less helpful it is to setting it flying. What I have to do to make progress is a world apart from aiming for "comfort" as is traditionally understood, as something that points towards quality. Considering quite how many pianists lazily plod along at early and intermediate levels (before usually going on to stop plodding and become plain stiff as they progress to harder music) even such a seemingly innocuous word as "comfort" can be harmful to some. It's going too far to make it the "rule" for what points to quality.

[keypeg]

I said that this involves work between a student and a teacher.  Of course there will be different kinds of music, different kinds of playing, and throughout it all you pursue what works best.  I wrote one principal to keep in mind.  Lots of things attach themselves to that.

I think we are also losing the topic which involved the instructions the OP ran into in regards to the thumb and near motionless arm.

[nyiregyhazi]

I said that this involves work between a student and a teacher.  Of course there will be different kinds of music, different kinds of playing, and throughout it all you pursue what works best.  I wrote one principal to keep in mind.  Lots of things attach themselves to that.

I appreciate that you wrote a principal to keep in mind- but I disagree altogether that it's the "rule" you stated it to be. I'm not disputing that there's other stuff too. I'm stating that I simply don't agree with it even as a singular principal. At best, it's an extremely superficial rule. At increasingly advanced levels, it becomes progressively flawed and can be a serious limiter. Sure, people work with teachers- but that doesn't magically create perfect technique. If I had in mind the idea that comfort should always lead my technical work, I'd only become all the less comfortable when playing difficult repertoire up to speed. It's when I step outside of my comfort zone by activating my fingers substantially more vigorously that the deepest comfort evolves- not because I intended to be comfortable but because I was prepared to step outside of traditional concepts of "comfort" in my preparatory practise. Suddenly a far more profound comfort comes to me of it's own accord. I've had scarcely any teachers that encouraged me to step out of my comfort zone, rather than to linger in it.

I think we are also losing the topic which involved the instructions the OP ran into in regards to the thumb and near motionless arm.

It's of particular relevance to this thread- as the option of a lifeless thumb that is moved almost exclusively from the arm end of things is a classic case of a movement that is frequently more  "comfortable" than one that is properly activated. Regarding the specifics of the topic, you either train both to perform equally well or you limit yourself. The references to why comfort in itself is not always a useful goal illustrate the background to that issue. If I had to sum it up, I'd say that no student should ever make themself significantly uncomfortable. However, if you take the attitude that whatever feels comfortable at the time is necessarily the best path, you can impose serious limitations on your scope for developing far greater comfort.


The excerpt of playing at the end of this film is a classic example of where striving for a comfort as a means itself becomes ultimately detrimental. Sure she can play again, but the lazy manner of movement is not going to have her rattling off shimmering runs unless she makes countless steps back out of that comfort zone.

Taubman may have cleared up her tensions, but now it's time for her to stop being so lazy with her fingers and start learning the healthy activities that she is missing. That does not come from taking comfort as an end in itself.

[keypeg]

I appreciate that you wrote a principal to keep in mind- but I disagree altogether that it's the "rule" you stated it to be. I'm not disputing that there's other stuff too. I'm stating that I simply don't agree with it even as a singular principal.

I never used the word "rule" and I don't state it to be one.  I wrote that it is one good thing to keep in mind, that's all.  I don't know why you are turning this into an argument.  Even when someone says that there are probably similar ideas at work, you are still writing as if there is disagreement.  It's strange.

[nyiregyhazi]

I never used the word "rule" and I don't state it to be one.  I wrote that it is one good thing to keep in mind, that's all.  I don't know why you are turning this into an argument.  Even when someone says that there are probably similar ideas at work, you are still writing as if there is disagreement.  It's strange.

If you check back you'll see that you indeed used the phrase "rule of thumb" , before stating the opinion that I have disagreed with. If you now wishing to retract that rule then by all means do- but you stated it unequivocally.

However, I'm not particularly interested in arguing about arguments- but rather in the opinion I disagreed with and the specific reasons why that stance can actually prove to be harmful. I have no interest in anything outside of the pianistic significance of the issues I raised. The point about comfort is that there is NO WAY OF KNOWING whether it means the same thing to different people- hence my challenging of your rule as being a necessarily good mindset. It can equally be a severely limiting one.

[keypeg]

Maybe you're just taking me too literally.

My impression very often is that when I write something, that it reminds you of things you have encountered, and then you are arguing against those things which I don't have in mind and maybe don't even know about.  Whatever I am learning personally is done together with a teacher, and the bottom line is that there are no rules.  One works at what one works at, and the process evolves from there.  I only mentioned one particular thing - not as an absolute.  You've got Taubman and whatnot out there.  I don't like going along systems.  That's where the harm came when I followed the advice of one person with my first instrument - it was along systems.  You work with someone who knows what they are doing, and the two of you work out what works.  It can't be defined in a forum.  It's individual.

[nyiregyhazi]

Maybe you're just taking me too literally.

The word rule has an ascribed meaning- which essentially involves universal applicability. For someone who regularly complains of dogma and unyielding assumptions about what is right, you might want to try an alternative expression that does not unequivocally convey precisely that in your own beliefs. If you don't mean a literal rule, but rather something that is to be reserved for the right people at the right time, it's a lot clearer if you don't use the term "rule" and if you qualify it as not being a suitable mindset for all.

I think the irony of your second paragraph is lost on you- because the fact that your one size fits all explanation (about whatever is most comfortable probably being right) does NOT fit all is precisely what I am pointing out.