In order to be musical...

[Spatula]

In order to achieve some arbitrary level of musicality?

Does one need to be able to play an instrument or sing?  Or can they claim to enjoy and be musical even though without the ability to read a single note on a treble clef staff?   

What do you think? 

[comme_le_vent]

musicality is mostly innate

for instance - i can hear in my head amazing interprative ideas - but i cant execute them all

[Daevren]

I disagree.

Just like we aren't born with the ability to speak a language we also are born without any musical skills.

We do have the ability to learn those skills, and some people learn better than others, because of genes or because of nurture factors.

Reading musical is a totally non-musical skill. But is is very handy for a musician.

I do agree musicality is in your head. You could meditate about playing music, but actually playing is going to be better.

So a person that doesn't play an instrument can't claim "I want to play an instrument but I am not musical." That doesn't make sense, you have never tried to be musical. I would ask this person "Do you like music? Do you connect with music?" If its answer is "yes" then the person is musical enough.

The point is that every person is musical. You could take an IQ test and tell everyone that scores under 110 that they aren't musical but that is bullshit. Even deaf people or people that haver IQs lower than 90 have musical skills, although those people can be truly called 'non-musical'.

[Maui]

I do think that you can be musical without playing any instrument (but it will help a lot), but the people I know that are musical and don't play a single note are true lovers of good music.

I really don't think that people who DO play a instrument are musical. I know a lot of pianists that only feel atracted by piano music (and specially virtuosistic stuff), violinists that only listen to violin music, and so on and so fourth.

In order to be musical you have to learn to listen, and with time and serious listening you'll get more sensitivity to music, and that's the evolution you should look for. If you don't believe me, just take a look around: most young people like Rock, Pop and other stuff like that, on the other hand, older people enjoy listening to classics, jazz and things like that.
That happens because with time (and proper listening ways) you get to a higher degree of sensitivity, and then you change your opinion.
We, young people that play any instrument, have a tendency to evolve faster and to achieve high degrees of sensitivity and understanding of music, but its not a guarantee. People who doesn't play anything also tend to reach a sensitivity wall where they don't feel atracted to anything more complex, but I think it's just a question of be interested and look for complex stuff.

About the IQ test, you're right, I only wish to add that a 90IQ person have the same chance to become a good musician that the one who have 150 or something. Because music is not an exact and racional science.

Maui.

[Daevren]

I disagree about the IQ. Music has more to do with math than with other artforms.

You can't be the next Charlie Parker/John Coltrane with an average IQ. Same with Liszt or Mozart.

All elements require brains. Plain mechalical virtuosity requires an unique brain. Creativity, memorisation, etc are clearly intellectual skills.

In jazz you have alot to think about and you need to do it really fast, counting, picking the scale, thinging about the chords, recalling which notes you played, what scale and chord combination is next, which notes are vital, how to connect those changes, its endless. Improvisation just requires you to learn alot of musical phrases or 'words'. You need a huge vocabulary.

With classical music there is alot of theory to learn. The harmony is subtle, form is important so memory is too, otherwise the form is meaninless, and so is the music.

Music is really an intellectual process. More than any other thing I can think of.

I personally recovered 15 points of IQ. Music really made me a psuedo-intellectual, reading books on all kinds of sciences and philosophy. I wound have never done that without music.

[Maui]

I disagree about the IQ. Music has more to do with math than with other artforms.

You can't be the next Charlie Parker/John Coltrane with an average IQ. Same with Liszt or Mozart.

All elements require brains. Plain mechalical virtuosity requires an unique brain. Creativity, memorisation, etc are clearly intellectual skills.

In jazz you have alot to think about and you need to do it really fast, counting, picking the scale, thinging about the chords, recalling which notes you played, what scale and chord combination is next, which notes are vital, how to connect those changes, its endless. Improvisation just requires you to learn alot of musical phrases or 'words'. You need a huge vocabulary.

With classical music there is alot of theory to learn. The harmony is subtle, form is important so memory is too, otherwise the form is meaninless, and so is the music.

Music is really an intellectual process. More than any other thing I can think of.

I personally recovered 15 points of IQ. Music really made me a psuedo-intellectual, reading books on all kinds of sciences and philosophy. I wound have never done that without music.

I agree.

But the musical sensitivity it's not 100% intelectual. That's because I did say that the IQ doens't matter. It's obvious.

Maui

[Daevren]

True, but you said a person with IQ 90 has the same ability as a person with 150. I disagree with that. In general that is not true.

[Daniel_piano]

True, but you said a person with IQ 90 has the same ability as a person with 150. I disagree with that. In general that is not true.

The correlation is not so linear
There are everal books that explain the concept of IQ and how it works
People with higher IQ has not necessarily supeior numerical or mathematical abilities
As a matter of fact when you join the Mensa you're told in what "matter" your IQ capabilities are higher
It could be visual perception, ideas correlations, language,  deduction
In fact not only a vast majority of people with very high IQ has not particular mathematical ability but majority of people who got a Ph.D. in mathematics, arithmetical or algebra has an average IQ or slighly higher

It's interesting to no how lot of composers considered geniues in music where completely average or bad in other matters
There are several letter by Mozarto to his father when he complaint about how natural rhythm is to him but how tough is for him to find the mathematical explanation to it (referring to his teaching to de Guines)
So, no, Mozart was not perticularly keen on mathematics, algebra or geometry for that matter
I doubt that composers of the past had all higher IQ especially after reading about their life and their knowledge
What is known for sure is that having an higher IQ is not synonimous with knowing everything and always getting high grades at school
Quite the contrary, many people with higher IQ where considered stupid and dull and were particularly bad in many common matters despite being genious in their own abilities

Daniel

[Daevren]

I assume everyone here knows what an IQ score means.

I am just saying the better your intellect the better you can be at music. Of course your intellect is not going to be balanced. Of course a high intellect doesn't mean your IQ score shows it, an IQ score only tries to give a picture of someones intellect.

Of course education level or what other people think about it have nothing to do with this. Of course a high IQ doesn't prove you are good at math.

But all of this has nothing to do with the topic. Music is made in the brain, and a good brain does a better job than a less good one.

Also, with practice in the end it doesn't really matter how good your brain is, unless the person has a brain defict. Your brain will adapt and with enough practice any brain can get above average performance in the field of music.

Music is something we learn, we aren't born with it. We are born with systems that enable us to learn it just as with language. So people with better brains, better intellects better brains, will naturally have the advantage because they will have the ability to learn it faster.