concerto question for bernhard or chang.

[BoliverAllmon]

I am learning shostakovich's 2nd concerto first mvt. How would you divide up the sections and work on such a longer piece?

boliver

[mosis]

Have you read nothing Bernhard has written in over 2000 posts?

You must work in sections no bigger than what you can master at the end of 20 minutes. This may be 4 bars (usually a max) or 2 notes, but I assure you, any idiot can master 2 notes after 20 minutes of practice. To determine what may be mastered at the end of 20 minutes, use the 7-repeats rule: if a section cannot be learned after repeating it 7 times, it is too big; cut it in half.

You must work systematically and patiently, but you don't need Bernhard and Chang to break the whole thing up for you. That is what people pay Bernhard to do. Try to figure it out yourself, you'll learn better that way.

[steven]

Right! Mosis (not about the paying) but about the system.
One question stay for me unanswered:  When do you know when you section (as little as it me be) is good ? Like in a chopin etude for example (Opus 10-12) the LH beginning with the chord RH, let's say you can play the first 2 mesures at 80% of performing speed, is this good ?
Or do you have to work on even smaller sections (like 4 notes) to get at performing speed or like CC even faster ?

steven

[steven]

And another question ..
Do you have to play the section by memory after the 20 minutes ?
I usally can play a section after 20 minutes with 2 or 3 looks at the score.
Is this good ?

steven

[BoliverAllmon]

no, I haven't read all 2000 posts. In fact, I have only read a few. I did read one though that says that we should ask specific questions to better answers. Therefore I did. Sorry if that was a problem.

[mosis]

Right! Mosis (not about the paying) but about the system.
One question stay for me unanswered:  When do you know when you section (as little as it me be) is good ? Like in a chopin etude for example (Opus 10-12) the LH beginning with the chord RH, let's say you can play the first 2 mesures at 80% of performing speed, is this good ?
Or do you have to work on even smaller sections (like 4 notes) to get at performing speed or like CC even faster ?

steven

At the end of the practice session, you should have the passage mastered and at speeds greater than the final speed. The purpose of practice is to make the passage easy to play, and if you are labouring with the final speed, you are not making it easier. If you cannot play at the tempo specified by the composer, practice as fast as you can, but always perform about 30% slower than that maximum speed, so that you are not labouring and struggling.

If you are unable to achieve final speed, you can try to break the section down, but it probably won't make a difference, if just the speed is concerned. You must figure out WHY you cannot play as fast as indicated. Is it because you have not developed the proper technique? Is it because you do not know the notes? Is it because your piano is a piece of sh*t and not even a virtuoso could play at that tempo?

If the reason is that you have not learned all the notes (for example, you can play the first bar at a good speed, and then it gradually falls apart), then break the section into half. You will probably be able to get that first bit mastered and at tempo (or faster) very quicky. Move on to the next section that was falling apart, and practice just that. Did it work?

If it did not, then you must change your approach. Try different motions. Practice in different rhythms. Practice using parallel sets and repeated note groups. Whatever you do, do NOT practice slowly. You will not get faster by slowing down. You will simply ingrain incorrect movements into your playing, and this passage will be nearly impossible to play at tempo. Chang and Bernhard have detailed several efficient ways to bring passages up to speed. Look around. I am no expert on the details, but I can give you these general outlines.

Do you have to play the section by memory after the 20 minutes ?
I usally can play a section after 20 minutes with 2 or 3 looks at the score.
Is this good ?

I cannot answer this. In my experience, I have been unable to memorize a passage the first practice session around (but I was able to play it flawlessly and at tempo from a few glances at the score). However, going back to the piano the next day, I found that when I achieved the level of mastery I attained the day before, memory came automatically. Ideally, it would be nice to memorize it right away, but I don't think it's necessary.

Whatever you do, try not to leave memorizing to the end. Memorize the passage while learning it.

A nice way to ensure that the passage will be nearly or memorized the next practice session is to play the passage in slow motion (i.e. Using the same movements as when you're playing fast) at about 3/4 or 1/2 speed before you stop practising once or twice. This will ensure that you REALLY know the passage, and that you're not just relying on hand memory. This is what Chang calls Post-Practice Improvement (PPI).

no, I haven't read all 2000 posts. In fact, I have only read a few. I did read one though that says that we should ask specific questions to better answers. Therefore I did. Sorry if that was a problem.

No problem at all. It is a specific question, but it is a fairly hefty one. I was just saying that Bernhard has described breaking up pieces and organizing practice sessions many, many times. You should read his general outlines and apply them to the piece you're working on.

Good luck,

Adam