Please Delete

[pianoman53]

Please delete this topic. Sadly, there is no point in writing here anymore, since one guy has all the scientifically correct answers. God I'm sick of him! Just delete this topic, ya?

[keypeg]

Does she know that she is allowed to take her time, she does not have to "produce" for you, and that in practicing at home she should duplicate what you did in lessons?  A new habit can only be held for a short time so if she practices, in tiny cycles throughout the day, with the main goal being to stay relaxed in playing, rather than producing finished beautiful music for you, she might get at it.  I'm not (yet) a music teacher but have had to overcome some things as a student along similar lines.

[pianoman53]

After every lesson, we write down what did. I try to make them use their own words, so that they get it and can remember it (coming up with metaphors etc.), and I also tell them that it ' way better to practice a very short part, but do it like we do in the lesson. I also always tell them to think before playing, and to think very much about being relaxed.

The main thing is that they had a crappy ass teacher for like 5 years. S/he was most probably one of those Major Education-students, who doesn't have a main instrument.. So it (I changed my mind, I don't want to call it as a person. To take money from children like that for 5 years without teaching them anything is not human) probably didn't even play piano, at all. Sadly, it probably only taught them bad habits.

[ajspiano]

How old is the student?
When specifically does the tension begin? Playing notes, or just hands on keys?
When you say "whole upper body" - what do you mean? Describe specifics. Eg. Shoulders raise, wrist rigid, non playing fingers curl up.

Does the student experience a physical sensation that they can put in words? Do they experience pain? If so when (after how much playing) and where exactly (anatomically) - use a diagram to explain this to me if you respond.

Relaxing is not the goal. That's a fallacy. Relaxing unnecessary muscles is part of the goal, if you just teach to relax this can mean relaxing necessary muscles and in turn building tension in other areas to compensate. This creates a vicious cycle, the more you relax the more tense you get. The is a balance created by good movements as much as by non moving unnecessarily. You may need to add aswell as remove.

People don't play with tension for no reason, something happens in their experience that makes their body NEED to tense in order to balance some part of the apparatus. You need to find the why as well as the what and give a replacement technique that works which will probably mean a combination of direct instruction as well as giving the student the tools to explore and find good technique on their own (so they can 'feel' it).

[pianoman53]

How old is the student?
When specifically does the tension begin? Playing notes, or just hands on keys?
When you say "whole upper body" - what do you mean? Describe specifics. Eg. Shoulders raise, wrist rigid, non playing fingers curl up.

Does the student experience a physical sensation that they can put in words? Do they experience pain? If so when (after how much playing) and where exactly (anatomically) - use a diagram to explain this to me if you respond.

Relaxing is not the goal. That's a fallacy. Relaxing unnecessary muscles is part of the goal, if you just teach to relax this can mean relaxing necessary muscles and in turn building tension in other areas to compensate. This creates a vicious cycle, the more you relax the more tense you get. The is a balance created by good movements as much as by non moving unnecessarily. You may need to add aswell as remove.

People don't play with tension for no reason, something happens in their experience that makes their body NEED to tense in order to balance some part of the apparatus. You need to find the why as well as the what and give a replacement technique that works which will probably mean a combination of direct instruction as well as giving the student the tools to explore and find good technique on their own (so they can 'feel' it).

She is 13 years old, and it starts when she starts playing (so when she pushed the last note). And the "whole upper body" really is the whole upper body. Her shoulders goes up, her wrist goes up, all fingers gets tensed, her neck, and even her lips and eyes.

Stupid me forgot to ask about if she feels pain, so thanks for that. So I don't know about feelings while she is tensed. However, when I started working with relaxing everything except for the finger which is playing, she noticed a huge difference. She both told me afterwards, and really expressed it in her face and she even said 'Wow' while playing in that way.

And obviously I know that we not actually 'relax' everything while playing. I demonstrated this by telling her to first flap her hand up and down, and then to 'feel' one finger at the time. And she is very clever, so she got it right away, and then she played actually quite well.

Also, I'm always very clear with the correct movements, and I try to make sure that they are 'relaxed' while doing them (so no pushing through, just to get the correct movement, or stuff like that).

[wolflett]

When I started taking piano lessons (every 2weeks) as an adult, my teacher almost immediately pointed out that I had lots of (wrong) tension in my hands and arms. I didn't even notice, but it didn't surprise me because I always have difficulty relaxing in general. Every time she noticed, she always made me put my hands on the keyboard and let them rest, or something, to get rid of the unnecessary tension, before I would continue playing. It took  weeks to learn how to notice the tension myself, and even longer to be able to play 'normally'. At least, in the end I hardly heard her complain about tension, so I'm guessing that means its sort of ok now.

Anyways, totally different situation (I didn't have years of bad piano-habit), but just saying that something like that needs lots of time.

[ajspiano]

I didnt really think that you thought total relaxation was the aim, given some of your past posts. However, since you're a new teacher it perhaps relevant to mention that it's easy to assume things as understood when they are not.. So while it may seem really obvious to you that the word 'relax' relates to a much bigger and more complex reality your student may just hear 'relax' and take it literally.

Sounds as though you made some reasonable progress her anyway.. You may ofcourse find that this leads to all sorts of other more specific concerns as they arise in the context of different repertoire.

In this situation you can get her/them to explore the function of a range of movements, and their combinations..  Starting with posture and bench height/distance.. Moving through torso, shoulders, forarms, wrists, fingers.. Being able to control each one with freedom in others..   You can develop feel by exploring what happens in the wrong position as much as saying where the right one is as well..

You can assess how free she is by doing things like depress a key, then move parts o the apparatus.. Eg, in a tense wrist situation she will not be able to raise the forarm (seen as higher wrist) and hold the key down at the same time.. 

Bla bla.. 

The pain thing is important obviously.. However it sounds like it will become more important as things get refined, when other problems pop up that may lead to more specific RSI issues - Where as right now an entire overhaul was required instead of a targeted concern perhaps..  She may only be able to express something like "uncomfortable everywhere" - as has been mentioned in the above post, usually they can't tell what's wrong until they has it pointed out to them or experience what's right.

[timbo178]

A couple years ago, I did the piano teaching subject at uni. The lecturer was also an Alexander Technique teacher. I've done some AT short courses through the uni and they were incredibly helpful.

Anyhow, the lecturer told the story (a bit vague, but you'll get the gist of it) of a crash survivor who needed to learn how to use thee muscles again in the body. The physio would ask him to move his index finger, and the guy would move his wrist, his arm, his shoulders, his neck ... all in order to get the finger to move. So the physio said that it was important to train the mind to move only the finger. Your brain gives the instruction: move the finger. So move the finger and nothing else.

In the same way, we need to give ourselves clear instructions and be entirely aware of what our body is doing. E.g. play this chord loudly with the RH. Does not mean tense the shoulders.

I have a student who'd tense up his shoulders every time he came to a difficult bit. As though that would help him get through it. I pull his shoulders back down. Then again 5 seconds later. And then again 5 seconds later. Point being, he just wasn't aware of what his body was doing. He's still getting there.

[keypeg]

I want to throw this out as ANOTHER element.  When I played another instrument I was fast forwarded along the grades very fast - we covered 4 grades in a single year.  There was little technique, and I had a poor instrument in my first year that caused damage.  Now that I have piano lessons, some of the habits I developed in those other lessons carried over.  I was afraid to take my time in front of my teacher, either trying to produce any which way without knowing what to do with my body, or froze mentally in a kind of mind panic.  Fortunately I'm advanced enough that I know you need to take your time, moving with purpose, know ahead of time where you're going etc. so we were able to work through this rather quickly.  I'm thinking that if a student was poorly taught for 6 years, and maybe had demands placed on her without knowing how to execute them, then she may also not have learned to take her time and be in the moment.  This will definitely have an effect, on top of everything discussed here.

[pianoman53]

I constantly tell them to rather play them slowly, and rather play slow and correct than fast, and that I'm actually not very interested in them playing fast yet. I assume they play waaay faster when I'm not there, and not as carefully, but I'm trying to get them used to only play slowly now in the beginning.

[nyiregyhazi]

Does she know that she is allowed to take her time, she does not have to "produce" for you, and that in practicing at home she should duplicate what you did in lessons?  A new habit can only be held for a short time so if she practices, in tiny cycles throughout the day, with the main goal being to stay relaxed in playing, rather than producing finished beautiful music for you, she might get at it.  I'm not (yet) a music teacher but have had to overcome some things as a student along similar lines.

The main goal should not be to be "relaxed" (which is essentially meaningless to most people, or at least means a different thing to every person)- but to find functional ways of inducing the possibility of doing it in the right balance. That requires actively positive intentions- not generic intent to subtract. The only way to be sure of an effective path is constant cross-referencing of both stripping exercises (aimed purely at generic reduction of efforts) and positively intended exercises (that are specifically about adding the useful activities that are doubtless being underdone) and ultimately balancing aspects from each in a healthy whole. It's the same point I made in the other thread- where you cannot assume that what a student perceives as being the most comfortable for them at a given time is necessarily their best route  to progress. It just isn't simple enough a scenario for such mindsets to necessarily sort anything out. If you take comfort and relaxation as a goal in itself, you can stop yourself finding the useful activities. The positive intentions should come first in at least half of the practise (with other parts devoted more towards exercises for stripping away effort). A constant yardstick of relaxation can be absolutely ruinous to some students. The only good yardstick is that you shouldn't be significantly uncomfortable. Relaxation is something to be earned by doing the right balance of exercises to learn what types are useful. It's not something that is readily achieved by trying to be relaxed. More likely than not, such a mindset takes attention away from the productive actions that focus should be placed on- as a precursor to the possibility of functional relaxation.

Carola Grindea's flop is a very good exercise for stripping efforts away. It's EXTREMELY comfortable, yet utterly dysfunctional for real life piano playing. Basically, you lift the wrist a little and let it collapse down. The finger moves the key in what is a very inefficiently flaccid and undefined way to attempt real playing in music (and obviously you can't sag your wrist through every note). This is absolutely invaluable for getting a student to feel release of efforts- even though it cannot be maintained this way in real playing, unless they learn the positive activities to complement it.

Regarding the positives, Alan Fraser has many good exercises. Do the girl's knuckles droop while the wrist goes up? It's a classic case of what he calls  "inversion", more likely than not.  These are some of my own, specific to the thumb- which I'd consider by far the easiest starting point to properly connecting to the piano. I particularly recommend the one where the thumb stabilises and the fingers "wave". It creates a position where you have to stabilise with adequate activity but where you must also loosen up any impeding efforts, to have any hope of performing the movement with freedom.

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/action-and-reaction-in-practise-part-i.html

[pianoman53]

If you would have read my posts, I said that I'm fully aware of the "myth of relaxation". I just, somehow, find it easier to say "She has trouble relaxing" than "She has trouble finding that perfect balance between a relaxed, but still not relaxed, hand yet a firm hand, where she has the control she needs. However, her knuckles should still be movable, and not stiff, but NOT RELAXED cause then her hand will collapse". But maybe that's just me.


I appreciate your reply, even though I completely disagree. Alan Fraser is nothing for me, and I don't really want anything to do with his way of playing. And I actually find those "extreme" exercises quite useful, especially if you have such extreme problems as the student in question.

The discussion of Alan Frasers technique should, btw, not be discussed here. Nor should the point if I'm right or wrong, since we all know it's not about that.

[ajspiano]

Firstly, N's response wasnt targeted at you entirely I suspect.. though it does seem like he didnt read the whole thread.. and I'm not sure how it was relevent to the passage he quoted :/

That aside...

Alan Fraser is nothing for me, and I don't really want anything to do with his way of playing.
The discussion of Alan Frasers technique should, btw, not be discussed here.

Thats a totally crazy statement to make. His "way" of playing is founded upon the idea that sound comes first and finding the physical means to produce a desired sound. This is a fundamental aspect of piano development that can't be ignored. He hardly even has a specific method, there is only a method used to find workable techniques for musical situations...   and the whole thing is largely based around feldenkrais training which, like the Alexander technique (which has also been suggested here), is all about healthy, controlled, balanced movement...

The reference to him was not about teaching his specific technique, it was about the multitude of exercises he presents in his books that develop a feel for balance and quality movement at the piano.

What part of that means nothing to you? and how could any persons (alan fraser or not) thoughts on its development not be relevant to your practice as a teacher and pianist.

overholding legato, thumb pushups etc..  perhaps not exactly where you would start, but still TOTALLY relevant to your students understanding of playing right now...    and for the sake of learning for both yourself, myself and N, perhaps you could explain why you don't think so instead of just shutting down what a fellow teacher feels is relevant to your situation.

[nyiregyhazi]

Firstly, N's response wasnt targeted at you entirely I suspect.. though it does seem like he didnt read the whole thread.. and I'm not sure how it was relevent to the passage he quoted :/

Indeed, this first part was in particular reference to the phrase:

with the main goal being to stay relaxed in playing,

I'd have thought the fact I quoted it would surely have clarified to the OP what I was addressing? The rest was more broadly about the problem of a very tense student. Coming back to that quote, no matter how much a person understands that total relaxation is impossible, if you don't connect your hand to the keybed in a low effort but secure balance, relaxation elsewhere will not follow. If the brain keeps shouting RELAX RELAX etc. it directly tends to interfere with the useful actions that are already lacking. That is why, as I described, SOME practise should be aimed at stripping away efforts- BUT this should always be balanced with practise that trains you how to perform the positive actions that are missing and without which greater general relaxation will not even be possible. You have to step back from the goal to find the means.

The reason I particularly like the waving exercise I mention is that it actually trains both elements at once- rather than only one side of things. It activates thumb support and good hand position (with elevated knuckles) while simultaneously requiring the arm to loosen, to permit the free finger movement.

[nyiregyhazi]

If you would have read my posts, I said that I'm fully aware of the "myth of relaxation". I just, somehow, find it easier to say "She has trouble relaxing" than "She has trouble finding that perfect balance between a relaxed, but still not relaxed, hand yet a firm hand, where she has the control she needs. However, her knuckles should still be movable, and not stiff, but NOT RELAXED cause then her hand will collapse". But maybe that's just me.


I appreciate your reply, even though I completely disagree. Alan Fraser is nothing for me, and I don't really want anything to do with his way of playing. And I actually find those "extreme" exercises quite useful, especially if you have such extreme problems as the student in question.

The discussion of Alan Frasers technique should, btw, not be discussed here. Nor should the point if I'm right or wrong, since we all know it's not about that.

Well, I actually thought you had an open mind up to that point. I see now that you don't. Incidentally, I didn't say that extreme exercises aren't useful. I directly said they ARE useful. But I also said that there is a limit to what can be achieved owing to the fact that they use styles of movement that cannot functionally be applied directly to regular playing. That it why they must be matched by exercises that are about the activations that are essential in regular playing. Look at keyboardclass's videos (who studied "relaxation" exercises with Grindea for years, yet retains worryingly extreme tensions). Exercises that only serve to strip do not work unless they are matched by those that ADD missing actions. Sustainable subtraction of effort cannot be sustained in real life playing without addition of useful activities. Tackling it from one end makes for a dead end.

Also, you didn't answer my questions as to whether her knuckles droop. If you're not interested in exploring avenues (that you have closed off without even giving any rational reason), there's not much point in asking for help.

[nyiregyhazi]

In short, I said what I did because, regardless of the fact that most people are already perfectly clear on the fact that full relaxation is not possible (including both keypeg and the OP) the approach to problems continues to be dominated by strategies that are about intent to remove efforts- rather than about the actions that make it possible to do so in a lasting way (in regular playing). Removing efforts is really very easy with Grindea's flop. What is hard is to understand what to put back in after having done these exercises- or you're back to square 1 as soon as you have to play a piece of music. Even if people are perfectly clear on the fact that it's not all about flaccid relaxation, if you don't directly address the things that a person must positively intend to do, you cannot even scratch the surface of the underlying problems. Lasting "relaxation" can only be earned if there is plenty of focus on what you SHOULD be doing- not merely on what you should not be doing.

If the focus is not aimed at this aspect, it's little different whether you appreciate that full relaxation is impossible or not. The method needs to train what activities makes relaxation possible, or it's as good as merely repeating "relax, relax, relax" (even if you know that doesn't work).

[hmpiano]

I don't at all think how you put a key down matters that much.  What matters is that you completely relax after.  Not quite so much that you fall off the stool but certainly no more than the forearm flexors holding your forearm in position over the keys (and whatever else you need to stay sat up).   It's not only much easier to teach but also gets to the nub of the matter.  And, of course, no need to read (or write) mind-boggling books/posts/blogs etc.!  Now there's a savings in more ways than one.

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't at all think how you put a key down matters that much.  What matters is that you completely relax after.  Not quite so much that you fall off the stool but certainly no more than the forearm flexors holding your forearm in position over the keys (and whatever else you need to stay sat up).   It's not only much easier to teach but also gets to the nub of the matter.  And, of course, no need to read (or write) mind-boggling books/posts/blogs etc.!  Now there's a savings in more ways than one.

The problem is that you have videos on youtube for us to see. that's like a 32 handicap golfer saying the swing doesn't matter.

Relax what anyway? Relax into holding the forearm up? That is not an act of relaxation. And if you were to relax the finger from there, the key would come up. If you don't stop to even attempt to answer such fundamental questions, regurgitating a load of flawed dogma (that you are not prepared to think through) is not going to do either you or anyone else any god.

[pianoman53]

Sorry for my reply, if it seemed rude. I had one of those days where everything went wrong. And I have been watching Alan Fraser and I simply don't agree with what he says. Maybe it makes wonders for some, but it's completely different from what I've learned.

To say that a technique (as keyboardclass's) doesn't work because of one not so successful student. I know plenty of good teachers, with students who won major competition, but they also have not so successful students. Would anyone say they were bad teachers? No.

I do agree on the youtube video though. Even if they are amazing, they have a tendency to either not show enough, or show things they actually don't use in their playing.


Though, this topic is not meant for a "who's right and who's wrong" - especially not about different techniques. I'm more looking for pedagogical advice. I mean, I know how I play, and I know it works. Though, I was far from that tensed when I started, and I didn't have that sort of bad start with a teacher who taught her wrong stuff.

Edit: And no, her knuckles doesn't collapse.

[nyiregyhazi]

Though, this topic is not meant for a "who's right and who's wrong" - especially not about different techniques. I'm more looking for pedagogical advice. I mean, I know how I play, and I know it works. Though, I was far from that tensed when I started, and I didn't have that sort of bad start with a teacher who taught her wrong stuff.

The advice I gave was not in the spirit of who is right or wrong. It's about the fact that specific useful activities must be acquired, in order to prevent greater expenditure of effort. That's why I suggested a balance between exercises aimed at stripping efforts and those aimed at introducing useful actions in a positive light. Other than AJS, nobody even touched on the latter category.  The entire thread has been about how to remove things- but nobody else has spoken of the positive actions that are needed to do so. Achieving fuctional relaxation objectively hinges on picking up the right positive to intend, as well as generic loosening exercises. Subjective approaches may appear very different, but ultimately they must work to train both sides if they are to have a chance to succeed.

I don't view it in terms of right and wrong but in terms of whether a particular method sees the bigger picture or simply fixates on one single end of what needs to be a two-way street. I didn't say kbk proves Grindea's method is "wrong"- but rather that it shows that it's missing out on something very important.

[outin]

I hate the word relax because I have never been able to relax anything... My teacher sometimes uses the word and it made me really annoyed in the beginning because I just cannot do that.

I much prefer to say releasing unnecessary tension. It makes more sense to me. I think part of it is mental and part of it is learning to feel the state of your muscles. And how could you release the extra tension if your body parts don't feel safely supported by the necessary tension?

Unfortunately what seems simple in words is sometimes very complicated to achieve in practice.

[nyiregyhazi]

I hate the word relax because I have never been able to relax anything... My teacher sometimes uses the word and it made me really annoyed in the beginning because I just cannot do that.

I much prefer to say releasing unnecessary tension. It makes more sense to me. I think part of it is mental and part of it is learning to feel the state of your muscles. And how could you release the extra tension if your body parts don't feel safely supported by the necessary tension?

Unfortunately what seems simple in words is sometimes very complicated to achieve in practice.

Absolutely. The chance to relax is something that can scarcely even begin until you have learned to deploy the right activities from the right muscles, in a useful way. The opportunity to relax is something to be earned- not something you can just will.

I was practising the Schubert G flat impromptu just now for the first time in quite a few months. It surprised me just how vigorously I have to activate the lengthening action in my fifth finger, if I'm going to get into a decent position with the arm and wrist. It takes a phenomenal level of willful intent that involves getting my fifth finger virtually vertical after each melody note. From there, my arm loosens like it had never been able to in that piece and the other fingers move with more freedom than I had ever experienced.

[hmpiano]

Relax what anyway?

I thought I made that clear?  Everything, apart from what's holding your forearm level with the keys and whatever's stopping you falling off the stool.  And yes, the key will go up.

[pianoman53]

The advice I gave was not in the spirit of who is right or wrong.

I didn't mean you, or anyone here. But you and hmpiano/keyboardclass tends to get into discussions that goes way off topic.. And I don't want that here.

[nyiregyhazi]

I thought I made that clear?  Everything, apart from what's holding your forearm level with the keys and whatever's stopping you falling off the stool.  And yes, the key will go up.

relax from what? Why was it tense? Why wasn't it already in the low effort state when pressing the key? And you want every note played staccato?

[pianoman53]

relax from what? Why was it tense? Why wasn't it already in the low effort state when pressing the key? And you want every note played staccato?

yeah, like this "discussion". Just don't reply him if you think he is such a douche.

[hmpiano]

You have a point and anyway I can see where this is going so, with due deference pianoman, I'll back out.

[lostinidlewonder]

...This week we played a note, and didn't continue until the body was relaxed. When she managed, we played the next one. To only play a five note scale took like a minute! After she played those 5 notes in that sort of slow tempo, I told her to play them faster and that worked fairly well.

This leans towards the student using isolated finger movements to press the key down, this is the usual culprit for tension in beginners hands. Many of them are caught over using the finger in isolation to the rest of hand, this then avoids them understanding how to use a natural weight of the hand to depress a single note. So the entry into a sting of notes begins with a tense isolated finger movement thus the rest has no chance to be relaxed.

Practicing different phrasings of note patterns (where we use a subtle drop of our hand to produce the first note and push off at the end of the phrase), different simple rhythm patterns (eg: coupled rhythms: long short and short long), study many single position pieces so lean how to play many finger combinations with confidence, listing out finger combinations and asking what they feel like and how one could visualize a group of them with a single action in the hand (eg 12 could be considered pinching fingers, 15 outside fingers, 234 middle etc) etc. It is important that the student understands how to produce a string of notes with one position of the hand being able to produce at least the first note with the hand instead of isolated finger movements and then learning how to play a group of notes without the need for isolated finger movements.

Allow the students to play their pieces with tension but slowly improve their method. We cannot hope to correct everything in one moment but rather let the student understand what it feels to be more relaxed after doing things with less efficiency. Most beginners have little experience to draw from and improving upon technique is an important learning experience. Try to correct what is most interfering rather than try to correct everything. Often if you clear away the most incorrect action it changes other problematic issues, this is often a sign that you both are on the right track.

[nyiregyhazi]

yeah, like this "discussion". Just don't reply him if you think he is such a douche.

I don't really care whether he's a douche or not and would have asked the same objective questions of anyone who had made his point. I remain sincerely interested in what muscles are supposedly tensing with every note and then relaxing (and in particular whether these muscles are supposed make a total of 20 changes of state per second when playing at 10 notes per second- as the logical extension of his assertion would require to be the case, assuming it has the slightest relevance to the demands of advanced pianism). I'm sincerely hoping for an honest attempt at a response, rather than yet another instance of him simply ignoring anything that brings into question the feasibility of his assertions. On a personal level I do indeed find it rather pathetic to cop out of inconvenient questions rather than to stop and either attempt a serious answer, or have a rethink, but my interest is founded in objectivity.

[nyiregyhazi]

This leans towards the student using isolated finger movements to press the key down, this is the usual culprit for tension in beginners hands. Many of them are caught over using the finger in isolation to the rest of hand, this then avoids them understanding how to use a natural weight of the hand to depress a single note.

While I have no complaints with the exercises you give, I cannot agree with this background analysis. In my experience, students who are stiff shove their arms down with completely inadequate levels of finger movement, almost without fail. I also see many students who naturally move the keys perfectly well with their fingers, without dropping the arm down one bit to help out (not to mention a wealth of advanced players). Stiffness is just stiffness. If anything, it's stiffness that hinders the fingers from moving well, rather than a student is stiff because they wish to move the keys with their fingers. Almost without exception, the stiff students who I encounter rarely move their fingers much at all.

One exercise that I find very useful effectively disproves the idea that the keys should not be moved by the fingers. In this, the arm actively hinders the transfer of energy to the keys (forcing the fingers to move more by subtracting from the energy that they apply) yet provides enormous freedom and ease. Get the wrist lifting very slowly and play a note while doing so by lengthening the finger. Then play 2 and then 3 etc. and build up to all five fingers in a single up movement. It's not a press from the arm (which would also see the wrist rising but in a totally different way), but a simple act of lifting directly up from the wrist while moving the keys with fingers alone. The arm cannot contribute a jot of energy here. While it can sometime help to loosen things up if you begin a run of five fingers with a drop, if you continue with arm pressure it only hinders. It's the ability to lighten so the fingers can move keys with freedom that allows the easiest way of tearing out five notes in a single gesture. Anyone, who tries to get the arm helping to provide literal energy for anything but the first note of the group becomes bogged down with tension. The way to help is to get out of the way of the fingers and let them get on with moving, rather than get crushed down by pressure from above.

I know of few better exercises for releasing efforts in the arms- as long as the student keeps that drifiting wrist movement continuous and doesn't allow even a moment of pressure from the arm (other than optionally for the first note alone). The exercises that you detail are extremely valuable too, but it cannot objectively be considered that the problem is students not using their arm to help move the keys- given how much freedom and ease is possible in this scenario where the arm is actively SUBTRACTING from the energy applied to the keys, rather than adding to what the fingers give. When playing Bach, I aim for the exact same situation of freeing the arm up and moving the keys with the fingers (although obviously it's more a case of staying balanced rather than literally lifting the wrist). It's when the arm falls down too often that stiffness begins. Nothing but finger movement (from a freed arm) can account for the rest.

[lostinidlewonder]

....I cannot agree with this background analysis.

Good for you. I cannot agree with ANYTHING you write about teaching or ANYTHING you debate on pianostreet because of your NEGATIVITY and wish to try and degrade EVERYTHING people say AS IF YOU ARE THE ARBITER OF WHAT IS CORRECT?!??!? Whatever. You will never have me taking you seriously, I have already given you that chance in MANYYYY threads. Do you really want to look stupid again with a debate? Its boring you lose all the time. 

In my experience, students who are stiff shove their arms down with completely inadequate levels of finger movement, almost without fail.

One example of many situations, if ALL your students do this lol, GOOD FOR YOu.

I also see many students who naturally move the keys perfectly well with their fingers, without dropping the arm down one bit to help out (not to mention a wealth of advanced players).

So what?

Stiffness is just stiffness.

Meaningless is just meaningless.

If anything, it's stiffness that hinders the fingers from moving well, rather than a student is stiff because they wish to move the keys with their fingers. Almost without exception, the stiff students who I encounter rarely move their fingers much at all.

Congrats you have described one situation, but I take away the congrats now because you try to make it look like they all do it like this LOL.

One exercise that I find very useful effectively disproves the idea that the keys should not be moved by the fingers.

Wow a mystery exercise seems mysterious!

In this, the arm actively hinders the transfer of energy to the keys (forcing the fingers to move more by subtracting from the energy that they apply) yet provides enormous freedom and ease. Get the wrist lifting very slowly and play a note while doing so by lengthening the finger. Then play 2 and then 3 etc. and build up to all five fingers in a single up movement. It's not a press from the arm (which would also see the wrist rising but in a totally different way), but a simple act of lifting directly up from the wrist while moving the keys with fingers alone. The arm cannot contribute a jot of energy here. While it can sometime help to loosen things up if you begin a run of five fingers with a drop, if you continue with arm pressure it only hinders. It's the ability to lighten so the fingers can move keys with freedom that allows the easiest way of tearing out five notes in a single gesture. Anyone, who tries to get the arm helping to provide literal energy for anything but the first note of the group becomes bogged down with tension. The way to help is to get out of the way of the fingers and let them get on with moving, rather than get crushed down by pressure from above.

Clumsily written and BORING.zzzzzzzzz sorry cant read the rest zzzzzzzzzzz

[nyiregyhazi]

I'm not interested in entering the playground, sorry. My argument was directed at a point that you made, not at you. If you want to go back and detail reasons for disagreement on that same basis, I'll get to back to you. You're welcome to provide reasoned disagreement to anything I say. However, if you're not willing to respond to my points in the objective spirit in which I took the time to detail very precisely why I disagreed with yours, I have no interest in responding to childish heckles. I'm sorry to see that your best response to being disagreed with is off-topic taunts  (as I would have rather appreciated an adult debate on the actual subject matter) but it really looks like we're done here. If that's your most mature response to fully explained on-topic disagreement, I'd ask yourself whether DEBATE forums are a good place for you.

A person who is truly secure in their beliefs ought to be able to defend them.

[lostinidlewonder]

I'm not interested in entering the playground, sorry.

But the playground is you pulling peoples comments down and replacing it with your made up theories.

My argument was directed at a point that you made, not at you.

You don't even know me so this is obvious duh. You have an argument yes, but you do with everyone else, so your arguments are pretty boring and uninteresting.

If you want to go back and detail reasons for disagreement on that same basis, I'll get to back to you.

Save your energy, I certainly DO NOT want you to get back to me and share any of your knowledge since you disrespect other peoples views, so who gives a damn about what you have to say?

You're welcome to provide reasoned disagreement to anything I say.

I don't think we need your approval.

However, if you're not willing to respond to my points in the objective spirit in which I took the time to detail very precisely why I disagreed with yours, I have no interest in responding to childish heckles.

Go away then and stop conversing with me LIKE I HAVE ASKED YOU BEFORE.

I'm sorry to see that your best response to being disagreed with is off-topic taunts  (

And that is your own fault, go have a look at mmmm 50+ threads where you argue with people incessantly and tangent the thread into random uselessness.

as I would have rather appreciated an adult debate on the actual subject matter) but it really looks like we're done here.

Then as an adult (as you proclaim to be) why don't you learn to respect that other people DO NOT want you to interact with them.

If that's your most mature response to fully explained on-topic disagreement, I'd ask yourself whether DEBATE forums are a good place for you.

I have no interest in keep on topic with you about anything because if we do you end up going off into random oblivion.

A person who is truly secure in their beliefs ought to be able to defend them.

I am not scared! I don't need to defend myself against the likes of you though.

[nyiregyhazi]

Take that as a free hit. Off topic arguments are of zero interest to me. We're done unless you have something to say that pertains to the on-topic points that I raised a few posts ago.

[lostinidlewonder]

Wonderful this might be a record for us! Lets stop here! WOOOT! Finally.

[j_menz]

Wonderful this might be a record for us! Lets stop here! WOOOT! Finally.

What? On page 1? 

[pianoman53]

For fcuk sake N! DON'T TURN THIS TOPIC INTO A FU.ING PISSING CONTEST! Every topic you join turns into this. If you would believe in your ideas as strongly as you say, you are either a liar or just dumb ass stupid. No one who truly believes in it have that urge to prove themselves right, in the way you do. You're exactly like those stupid extreme christians, who just has to be right. Dont join this topic, or any of my topics. You are simply unable to discuss with. Now, bye.

[nyiregyhazi]

For fcuk sake N! DON'T TURN THIS TOPIC INTO A FU.ING PISSING CONTEST! Every topic you join turns into this. If you would believe in your ideas as strongly as you say, you are either a liar or just dumb ass stupid. No one who truly believes in it have that urge to prove themselves right, in the way you do. You're exactly like those stupid extreme christians, who just has to be right. Dont join this topic, or any of my topics. You are simply unable to discuss with. Now, bye.

Debate involves people giving explanations of why they disagree. If that's a problem for you (which it certainly isn't for me- only this kind of tedious off-topic nonsense is) public debate forums may not be a good place. While "I'm right and your wrong" arguments are worthless, forums would be a sad place if nobody were allowed to provide reasoning of why they disagree with other people's views. That is how debate functions. In my experience the religious zealots are those who take violent offence as soon as anyone disagrees their belief system- not people who calmly provide objective reasoning to support their reasons for disagreeing with alternative beliefs and enter into open discussion. I already made it clear to the other poster that I have no interest in a personal battle and I'll repeat the same today. If you want to reply with another personal attack, you too get a free hit. After this final statement I'm not prepared to make any further posts off the topic in response to either of you- but neither am I prepared to be censored from providing reasoned disagreements on the subject matter. When you post in a forum, you accept that others are free to respond with their views on what you say. You don't get to silence other posters on topical issues. If you cannot accept the rights of others to on-topic response, post your thoughts on a blog (and censor the comments)- not on a debate forum.

I consider it a great pity that entirely topical posts can only provoke departures from the topic, rather adult exchanges of views on the subject.

[keyofc]

Just curious, how old are you people?

[nyiregyhazi]

Please delete this topic. Sadly, there is no point in writing here anymore, since one guy has all the scientifically correct answers. God I'm sick of him! Just delete this topic, ya?

? Why should anyone delete the posts that a number of posters made on the topic you raised? What makes you think that the mere fact you started a topic ought to give you the right to request that the words we took the time to write should be erased from history? Starting a topic neither gives you ownership of it, nor the right to request imposition of censorship upon the posts that various members have made on that topic.  

Your jurisdiction extends as far as the posts that you write- you are not the sheriff of either the thread as a whole or anybody else's posts in it.

[pianoman53]

Why are you still writing to me? Do you follow normal people around like this too? I mean, I made it quite clear that I'm dine. Yet, you still try to find something to point out. Get a freaking life. Idiot.

[nyiregyhazi]

I posted because it struck me as quite so remarkable that anyone would call for the destruction of a thread that various people have contributed to. It warrants a reminder that people in forums own their posts, not threads that multiple parties have made a contribution to. having made that relevant point, I'm now done.

[keypeg]

Pianoman, the topic and the answers and discussion are helpful to others.  Usually people skip posts that they know follow a pattern and zero in on the ones that they find meaningful.

[hmpiano]

Yeh basically, the emptiest barrels always do make the loudest noise.

[nyiregyhazi]

Yeh basically, he's a fraud, his guru's a fraud - the emptiest barrels always do make the loudest noise.

If you'd like to demonstrate in what manner (rather than merely write casually libellous remarks about both myself and someone who has a high enough profile to reasonably sue both yourself and the forum for publication of such an allegation) you are warmly encouraged to. How about some topical substance, rather than idle defamation?

[hmpiano]

Here's some topical substance, this for me was the genuine lol!
https://maplegroveproductions.com/piano/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=715&p=4503#p4503