Hanon

[c18cont]

My complaint,

There is no way to hear the different pianist's that favor or decry any given method of study on the forum. We don't know each other, so we accept or reject the material espoused on any forum, based on pre conceived ideas, and the impression communication on the forum leaves with us, as given by the different members.

I am simply reminded of the list I hold of persons skating from forum to forum, (including some real master forum's..), some of them likely genuine nut cases, and a few of them probably dangerous...and again I realize, that it is simply opinion no matter how you cut it. It also stands to reason that I may be one of the dangerous ones..as you cannot be sure, as in much of life, unless you spend personal time getting to know me in person, as we all judge best that which we can work with in first person.

A few suggest they have the facts, and even present hugh lists of previous posts....But that is what they are,..previous posts....They say very little, and all the wishing in the world does not add certifiable facts to those posts...We are left with making decisions, the meat of our lives for all time; just made much more difficult by the anonymity of the internet...

Even so, we all are inclined to accept the printed word before us based on how well it is presented...It is really all we have to go with, unless we personally know a respondant...We are simply left with our impressions of the writer when we work on a forum...We do then, respond well to those intelligent and polished enough to make good use of the language...Intelligence rules here, whether or not we personally like the situation.

In my experience, even fairly deep personal communication does little real good, and it is dangerous to reveal too much about yourself to the world at large. As a result, I accept the problems I have mentioned, and the many that the more intelligent might suggest that I have missed...I work within them.

However, one area that we should all be more aware of regards the willingness to fight at any cost for ego enhancement, because the very characteristics mentioned allow forums to do just that, and often it serves only the writer, adding little to the needed good humor and comradeship needed so badly on a forum.

I close realizing that this is the wrong place for this post...But as I still depend on Hanon, and believe it serves well, I place it here, hoping I will not be called to task for it...

Regards,   John Cont

[xvimbi]

What a post!

There is no way to hear the different pianist's that favor or decry any given method of study on the forum.

Of course there is. That’s what we do all the time.

We don't know each other, so we accept or reject the material espoused on any forum, based on pre conceived ideas, and the impression communication on the forum leaves with us, as given by the different members.

You seem to go by pre-conceived notions, as you like to invoke respect and authority to drive home your point. However, many people here actually critically evaluate the information presented to make up their own minds, without any pre-conceived notion. There are accomplished concert pianists on this forum, experienced teachers, interested amateurs and total beginners. It doesn’t matter who says what, because any statement must stand on its own and it will get evaluated as such (see below).

I am simply reminded of the list I hold of persons skating from forum to forum, (including some real master forum's..), some of them likely genuine nut cases, and a few of them probably dangerous...and again I realize, that it is simply opinion no matter how you cut it. It also stands to reason that I may be one of the dangerous ones..as you cannot be sure, as in much of life, unless you spend personal time getting to know me in person, as we all judge best that which we can work with in first person.

I am not sure this paragraph serves any other purpose than to degrade the contributions of a lot of serious people and to drag a perfectly fine discussion down the sewage just to save your skin.

A few suggest they have the facts, and even present hugh lists of previous posts....But that is what they are,..previous posts....They say very little, and all the wishing in the world does not add certifiable facts to those posts...We are left with making decisions, the meat of our lives for all time; just made much more difficult by the anonymity of the internet...

You were presented with opinions on Hanon. As a response you asked for “antecedents”. Now that you have them, and a few more personal accounts in the recent threads, you have nothing more to say than you think what’s written in earlier posts is wishful thinking, and that we hide behind the anonymity of the Internet. That is not just utterly disrespectful (you’d be surprised about the accomplishments of some here; if they would invoke respect and authority, I am not sure who would outrank whom, if you want to look at it this way). It is in fact the sign of someone who has run out of any cogent arguments. I am happy that Bernhard presented that list, and that I didn’t indeed take the time to write up my thoughts again, just to receive your post as an answer for my efforts.

With respect to the anonymity of the Internet and that one doesn’t know much about the posters, those are in fact good things. It allows one to look at things without the clutter of personal baggage attached. The statement that 2+2=4 made by the first-grader is just as valid as the same statement made by the trained mathematician. And that is because the statement speaks for itself, independently of who makes it. You instead would like to attach statements to respect and authority, but then they lose their value, and we end up accepting statements like 2+2=5 made by the trained mathematician, just because he holds a degree, and the statement 2+2=4 made by the first-grader is dismissed, because he doesn’t have a degree. Sorry, but your appealing to respect and authority has not lead to anything substantial. Pity you ran into a discussion with people who think critically on their own and challenge whatever anybody says. And that is the right way to discuss things, because it forces people to explain exactly what they mean. Sadly, you have declined to offer any explanations.

Even so, we all are inclined to accept the printed word before us based on how well it is presented...It is really all we have to go with, unless we personally know a respondant...We are simply left with our impressions of the writer when we work on a forum...We do then, respond well to those intelligent and polished enough to make good use of the language...Intelligence rules here, whether or not we personally like the situation.

...

However, one area that we should all be more aware of regards the willingness to fight at any cost for ego enhancement, because the very characteristics mentioned allow forums to do just that, and often it serves only the writer, adding little to the needed good humor and comradeship needed so badly on a forum.

You again wiggle your way out of any discussion. You try to reduce this discussion to rhetoric and a battle of egos. Oh dear! There is a lot of nicely presented information and opinions in those posts; no rhetoric or semantics. It very much looks like it that the reason why you don’t answer any of our questions or present any cogent arguments that would diffuse those arguments presented in the posts is because you don’t have any cogent arguments. We can be convinced, provided you have anything convincing to say.

Do you think eloquent Hanon-bashing posts are in the majority because the posters are skilled wordsmiths? Does that mean there is no Hanon-devotee who is a skilled wordsmith? Or does it mean that they just don’t have any cogent arguments?

The only thing you have contributed is that Hanon worked for you and the dogma derived from this that people better do Hanon or they will regret it. Thus, the whole thread was pretty much a waste of time and energy, if it wasn’t for aerlinndan who described his experiences and what he learned from them. Perhaps this is of use to people who are really interested in getting to the bottom of Hanon.

[omnisis]

For the record I think I posted a somewhat intelligent set of questions about my own expereiences with Hanon and a challenge to others for some responses earlier on this thread.  I didn't try to be dogmatic in my approach and I didn't appear as a "hanon hater".  I have learned a lot from this thread and so have others I'd imagine.  Xvimbi, please don't avoid the controversial topics just because some people devlove into "religious style"  rhetoric and character sketches/attacks that  have nothing to do with the topic at hand.  I for one have found your posts extremely thought-provoking and while I don't necessarily agree with everything you say, I have tried to understand your point of view and learn something from your posts.

C18Cont,  from what you've posted it seems that mean quite well but at times you have trouble seperating yourself personally from the topic at hand.   Remember that every statement made on this forum is an *opininon* plain and simple and it is through debate, controversy and intelligent discourse that we actually learn something (contrast this with the traditional non-Socratic, "just memorize what I tell you" approach to education that has become the standard educational system of today) .  If you think that just "doing what you've always done" is going to advance the world of piano  study then you can't be helped. 

The scary thing about education that few people are willing to admit is that the more you know the less you know for certain (think about it).   The world is not black and white.   You have to temper your intelliegence and wisdom with the ability to always keep your mind open to contrary views and opinions of others.  Also, most issues are not binary although when it comes to controversial issues, it's a common falacy to take a "their side/my side" approach to debate, if only because it's easier for some people to argue against something than for something.

In closing I'd like to say that I think there were some valuable posts on this thread and on the previous threads that were mentioned by some posters in their replies.  Don't stop posting as long as you have something valid to add to the conversation at hand. 

~omnisis

[xvimbi]

For the record I think I posted a somewhat intelligent set of questions about my own expereiences with Hanon and a challenge to others for some responses earlier on this thread. 

Sorry, I didn't intend to neglect your contribution. You are right, there are a few very useful thoughts in this thread.

I didn't try to be dogmatic in my approach and I didn't appear as a "hanon hater".  I have learned a lot from this thread and so have others I'd imagine.  Xvimbi, please don't avoid the controversial topics just because some people devlove into "religious style"  rhetoric and character sketches/attacks that  have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Don't worry I won't avoid controversial topics. I am often the one who makes them controversial!

I for one have found your posts extremely thought-provoking and while I don't necessarily agree with everything you say, I have tried to understand your point of view and learn something from your posts.

You don't agree with EVERYTHING I say?? I'm going to kick your ...!

Just kidding, of course.

Seriously, the "thought-provoking" aspect is the one that is important to me.

[c18cont]

Hi all,

Yes, after all the talk about Hanon, I have been practicing the ones I mentioned, regularly, and guess what? I am getting better at Hanon all the time......

By the way, perhaps we should remind ourselves that several, including a few in my time made complete recordings...One of the newer, and very well regarded, a local teacher has a  CD of, and I have heard it..(By the Cambodian with the funny first name and the name Dong...)...It is VERY perfect, without the over-emphasis I have heard on the "speedball" displays from some others....

Best,   John Cont

[c18cont]

Hi,Omnisis,

Indeed, I don't have any trouble with separation of material and person...it is as I intended, and is still valid in the system of education...I determined to mention ONLY myself and the experience I had with Hanon, and I still stand with it today; why do otherwise? That is NOT to suggest another result is not possible, yes, even likely from others. In my writings I mention that it has worked out well for ME...Those not interested need not take note...

In fact, I believe, and have been told by private note, that I am clear in my answers; should you look for a way to demean, it is of course, possible, as it is a shortfall of being clear in an opinion, as it requires little fact to back it up.

I supply no fact other than my success, and you have to accept that as spoken, or discard it out of hand...Your choice, and it seems you have already made that choice...

As I have clearly said, the postings I have read from others have little fact as a basis. They are written to impress, but often without any firm understanding and no proofs. Instead many claims are made regarding the foolishness of mindless finger drilling...(no surprise...youth has never cared much for that sort of drill)...the variance is a result of todays refusal to do anything because you are told...as well expressed in your post....a much different attitude related to a time even just some 15 or so years ago...but I digress..

I also wonder why you patently repeat the points made by me, regarding opinion is an example...One would wonder if you are more wise and Prescient than I, and of course, in written dialogue such cannot be proven....Remember, I never said I was right, for any but myself and several students. That is hard to prove for any forum member...

And  Friend Xvimbi.

Indeed, I CANNOT sit and hear you play, unless you wish to tell me where you are, and allow me to come and hear you...No matter your presentations on this forum.

The best rhetoric in the world makes no difference in the end; It is what you can put down in print, and MANY agree that much on this subject is a matter of personal likes and dislikes; of individual taste..Again, I make NO claims; I simpy say it was successful for me...Perhaps in the end, all is also well managed in the repertoire, and would be the wise way to study for facility...but I believe the jury is still out in that regard...

Your continued attacts on me simply show you are unwilling to really GIVE THE EXAMPLES required for all to find some measure of truth in your statements. I realize you have your supporters, but there are some more supportive of Hanon, as I am sure you know...many spoke their minds, but now have dropped into the background, afraid to be a part of the controversy, or unable perhaps, to speak well in written material...mores the pity...

It is obvious that some writers of great presence have control of the theoretical side of this forum; I believe it is apparent to a thinking person. It doesn't mean by ANY measure that it is correct or even the strongest arguement, and any attempt to prove it so seems to be non productive as attested by other writers, other than myself...In truth, I have a BETTER feeling for your principles regarding Hanon than many (I suspect), who claim otehrwise; I KNOW you are correct in much that you say...

I again cease and desist...It serves no purpose, when persons return remarks to suggest I am not qualified in the field I chose and worked in....What indeed is the purpose of that approach, omnisis?

Does it show others I am not qualified, when you determine on the basis of a forum, my understanding of education? Why would you suggest I contrast the Socratic method with another teaching method? I don't pretend to teach anything here; I only hope to encourage an open mind in relation to Hanon...But it is becoming increasingly obvious such is a work of no reward...

In any event, I am not the enemy, and not without both understanding AND compassion...I view the whole unfortunate issue as simply a dissenting voice that is not accepted under the presence I bring...That is fine, I have time for no more, and refuse to do additional research I believe would be wasted, in view of many sites supporting Hanon, throughout the web....

Regards, to all...John  (No Cont...I am dropping the last name if it is O.K....)

[xvimbi]

I also wonder why you patently repeat the points made by me, regarding opinion is an example...One would wonder if you are more wise and Prescient than I, and of course, in written dialogue such cannot be proven....Remember, I never said I was right, for any but myself and several students. That is hard to prove for any forum member...

...

Does it show others I am not qualified, when you determine on the basis of a forum, my understanding of education? Why would you suggest I contrast the Socratic method with another teaching method? I don't pretend to teach anything here; I only hope to encourage an open mind in relation to Hanon...But it is becoming increasingly obvious such is a work of no reward...

It wasn't me who spoke of socratic methods.

Anyway, you say that Hanon worked for you and that you can't speak for others. You also "encourage an open mind in relation to Hanon". Your "open mind" was: "do Hanon or you will be sorry". So, it is not personal anymore. You are projecting your own experience onto others and you do indirectly claim that Hanon will work for others as well. You make it sound like we are actually going to be doomed if we don't do Hanon. When you were asked to clarify your reasoning for such a dogmatic statement, you refused to present any arguments other than invoking respect and authority and started to polemicize instead. Where is the open mind? In this context, it doesn't matter what WE think about Hanon. We would like to know YOUR reasoning. You know our stance, and you have made clear what you think about it. How about defending your own stance?

[llamaman]

Hanon worked for me. I can stretch a lot further than I used to while playing. It's also a good warm-up, as well as my Scales, Chords, and Arpeggios

[omnisis]

C18Cont:

Briefly, I was the one who brought up the "socratic method" subject and the point of that was to illustrate what I thought was a flaw in your logic re: things that are said on this forum.

You said:

A few suggest they have the facts, and even present hugh lists of previous posts....But that is what they are,..previous posts....They say very little, and all the wishing in the world does not add certifiable facts to those posts...We are left with making decisions, the meat of our lives for all time; just made much more difficult by the anonymity of the internet...

What exactly is a "FACT" in this context.  My point is that there is no such thing.  With something as subjective as the art of playing piano all we have are opinions and traditions.  Are you suggesting that all traditions are FACTS and all opinions that defy them not valid because they aren't factual?  That makes no sense at all.  My point is that you can't rely on some arbitrary, flimsy notion of "FACT" to support your claim.  If you state something then you need to back it up with a rational argument that explains the "how and why" of things instead of suggesting that Hanon (or anything else for that matter) is, by nature, above reproach and therefore checkmate, game over, you win.

You keep insisting that it's the very nature of the technology behind this forum (i.e. "the internet") that is what makes it impossible for any conclusions to be drawn but rational defence of one's position need not depend on a) The background of the person debating or b) The fact that the argument was not face-to-face.  Just being a wordsmith doesn't mean you win every debate (although it ceretainly helps), you have to rationally defend your position and thus far you haven't done a very good job at that.

I never meant to insult your "background" or "choosen profession", but to ask me to believe everything that you say without question is kind of like saying "The president does this and he is a wiser man than I therefore I shall do accordingly".

I don't totally discount Hanon, btw.  I actually do some hanon exercises, primarily as a warmup and way to practice different touches in the seperate hands. 

~omnisis

[bernhard]

Alright! Let's have a good bottle and play some Bach

Definitely

Pinot Noir?

[aerlinndan]

John,

I have a couple of responses to some things you said in your previous post.

As I have clearly said, the postings I have read from others have little fact as a basis. They are written to impress, but often without any firm understanding and no proofs. Instead many claims are made regarding the foolishness of mindless finger drilling...(no surprise...youth has never cared much for that sort of drill)...the variance is a result of todays refusal to do anything because you are told...as well expressed in your post....a much different attitude related to a time even just some 15 or so years ago...but I digress..

I am only 18 years old, so I'm at a loss in comparing the youth of today with the youth of the previous generation; however, I can say that American students are incredibly lazy when compared to present-day students from Asian countries and other places around the world. But the full-fledged adults say we're more rebellious and less disciplined than the last generation, so I'll go with that...

In fact it is just this mindset that creates revolutions in art. I'm reading "The Great Pianists" by Harold Schonberg and I'm on the chapter about Beethoven. He absolutely blew apart at the foundations any previous notions about the playing of the pianoforte and the history of music is not the same as a result. The refusal to accept old conventions, and the desire to then move forward and develop better, more efficient, more perfect methods, has always been a catalyst for progress in art.

And on a more practical note: let me tell you that since stopping my practice of Hanon, the work I do on technique has only increased in difficulty. No longer am I allowed to sit down at the piano for an hour a day and run through my pre-determined Hanon in lots of tempos and rhythm variations. No. Instead I have to look at my repertoire, determine my weaknesses, and create technical exercises of my own that will address those difficulties in a physically and musically meaningful way. It's much more engaging and it requires tons more discipline than an hour a day of Hanon ever did.

The best rhetoric in the world makes no difference in the end; It is what you can put down in print, and MANY agree that much on this subject is a matter of personal likes and dislikes; of individual taste..Again, I make NO claims; I simpy say it was successful for me...

If one believes that piano practice is wholly a matter of "individual taste", then we might as well all be the first generation of fortepiano players back in Mozart's day, struggling to come to learn the mechanics of the instrument and find ways to play it better.

Come on! What's the whole point of...

private lessons
pedagogy
books
videos
masterclasses
this forum

...if you think that piano playing is merely a matter of individual taste? The point is that there are some concepts in piano playing that do approach being universal, and the art of piano playing evolves as a result of the dissemination of these techniques, so that they can be tried, picked apart, modified, improved upon, turned inside out, and so on. To say that a certain exercise works for a certain person is all well and good, but as a piano teacher you have some sort of burden of proof. I think all pianists - and indeed anyone striving for excellence in his or her chosen field - are called to these higher ideas, and concomitant to a life of hard work, discipline, and excellence comes the struggle to understand these concepts, teach them, and write them down, so that future generations can go one step further than you did.

I think I just defined education.