Flexors, lumbricals and beginners

[falala]

Hi. First post!

Over time I've read a considerable amount about the issue of different muscle groups and their effect on piano technique, including the idea of tension being created by excessively curved fingers which can be relieved - and greater fluency and independence achieved - by cultivating use of the lumbrical and interosseous muscles. eg:

https://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/articles/tension.html

Interestingly when I studied in Paris my teacher there always described the fingers as extending or straightening as they played, rather than remaining curved, although she never went into anatomical reasons for doing so.

All of this makes considerable sense to me. My question is whether and how it can affect the teaching of technique to beginners. The problem I always find is the tendency of beginners to collapse the end knuckles of the fingers. The only way I have found to overcome this is to maintain insistence on a curved finger shape, even exaggerating it where necessary, for the first few years until the strength and resistance of that knuckle is established.

Recently I have tried exploring the idea of the end joint uncurling as they play, the way I tend to do in my own practice, but I find it impossible to get beginners to do this without collapsing the knuckle.

Any thoughts?

[j_menz]

Any thoughts?

You're new, so you're forgiven. But - there are a number of VERY long threads on this forum that discuss that very topic.

[falala]

Actually while this is my first active thread, I have done a fair bit of reading of the forum including the threads I think you're referring to.

But if you read my post it's much more specific than the general question of flexors vs lumbricals. I want to know specifically about whether anyone has used awareness of such in the teaching of beginners - and in particular how they then deal with the problem of the collapsing end-knuckle.

There may be threads about this, but if so I have missed them. Might have another look now, or by all means link me...

[ajspiano]

Actually while this is my first active thread, I have done a fair bit of reading of the forum including the threads I think you're referring to.

But if you read my post it's much more specific than the general question of flexors vs lumbricals. I want to know specifically about whether anyone has used awareness of such in the teaching of beginners - and in particular how they then deal with the problem of the collapsing end-knuckle.

There may be threads about this, but if so I have missed them. Might have another look now, or by all means link me...

These kinds of questions notoriously lead to all kinds of lop sided arguments and pissing contests. I can see why you may feel its a legitimate concern though.. 

You're question is however a little too vague, approaches to such concerns may be age dependant..  or just general personality of the student dependent.. or dependant on where and why the collapse is happening (all the time or only certain situations?)

To avoid the potential curling problem - fixed deep flexor tension where the finger curls from the DIP and PIP joints in isolation from the MP - you may be able to encougage keeping the distal knuckle straighter, rather than curled. Over curling them can lead to an MP collapse too..  really the whole thing needs to balance, and a curled position is where the balance is..  there are millions of curled finger positions that are unbalanced and this is why there is potential problems in using the word curl and trying to teach a specific shape.

Rather than trying to teach a specific shape or technique because you know it works, I suggest you try to teach a musical expression or sound.. and then show them how to do it with the right technique. Your student needs a reason not to collapse the knuckle. Present a musical problem that requires better finger shape (no collapses) to maintain control and comfort.

[nyiregyhazi]

Hi. First post!

Over time I've read a considerable amount about the issue of different muscle groups and their effect on piano technique, including the idea of tension being created by excessively curved fingers which can be relieved - and greater fluency and independence achieved - by cultivating use of the lumbrical and interosseous muscles. eg:

https://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/articles/tension.html

Interestingly when I studied in Paris my teacher there always described the fingers as extending or straightening as they played, rather than remaining curved, although she never went into anatomical reasons for doing so.

All of this makes considerable sense to me. My question is whether and how it can affect the teaching of technique to beginners. The problem I always find is the tendency of beginners to collapse the end knuckles of the fingers. The only way I have found to overcome this is to maintain insistence on a curved finger shape, even exaggerating it where necessary, for the first few years until the strength and resistance of that knuckle is established.

Recently I have tried exploring the idea of the end joint uncurling as they play, the way I tend to do in my own practice, but I find it impossible to get beginners to do this without collapsing the knuckle.

Any thoughts?

Interesting post. I'd always been skeptical about muscular analysis, but I'm currently convinced that this is absolutely right (having previously been skeptical about Beauchamp's lengthening actions). If you do pure pulls from the knuckle, you're fighting against the necessity of the hand closing, when playing chords. If you lengthen, there's no battle. The extending action of fingers (that I only adopted as my norm very recently) makes things far easier.

The reason I'd been skeptical on this for a long time is primarily due to habitual arm pressure. The thing about this approach is you have to be very clear on the fine details. When done well it's very low impact- but there are ways of getting it wrong. Anyone who drives their arms hard has to change their habits completely, or it can cause problems.

My own tip for beginners- try getting them to rest their nail flat on a surface and then extend back from there, to raise the knuckles right up. In my experience, you can always find a point midway where balance is absolutely fine (although go a fraction further and they will start to collapse again).  From there, they learn the "feel" and can hopefully find that same balanced position when starting from a more normal finger position.

[nyiregyhazi]

To avoid the potential curling problem - fixed deep flexor tension where the finger curls from the DIP and PIP joints in isolation from the MP - you may be able to encougage keeping the distal knuckle straighter, rather than curled. Over curling them can lead to an MP collapse too..  really the whole thing needs to balance, and a curled position is where the balance is..  there are millions of curled finger positions that are unbalanced and this is why there is potential problems in using the word curl and trying to teach a specific shape.

I think this something else altogether though. What I realised was that curled implies curling and flat implies flattening. What about starting flat and curling or, in this case, starting curled and using an uncurling action to play. Contrary to what I'd always imagined, I need literally zero inward action to avoid collapse. The issue is whether this is because I developed certain ligaments over time, or whether it's purely due to alignment issues. I really don't know the answer to whether you need to develop strength or coordination yet- but I can say that I have one quite advanced student who had a severe problem but who has learned to collapse vastly less often, since I showed her not how to curl, but to extend back and away from an initial curl.

Rather than trying to teach a specific shape or technique because you know it works, I suggest you try to teach a musical expression or sound.. and then show them how to do it with the right technique. Your student needs a reason not to collapse the knuckle. Present a musical problem that requires better finger shape (no collapses) to maintain control and comfort.

I'm not personally convinced here. The student I mentioned is at grade 6 level and very musical. It's largely been a case of improving her sound by concentration on physical stability issues and by getting her to move with greater confidence. The sound was something that had to be unlocked by other means. She'd still be collapsing like crazy now, if I didn't deal with the issue in physical terms. At beginner level, a collapse has so little influence on the sound (as long as they play with confident action) that I don't believe any musical issues would be likely to help. At best, they'd be a reminder of a problem, rather than a fix.

[ajspiano]

I think this something else altogether though. What I realised was that curled implies curling and flat implies flattening. What about starting flat and curling or, in this case, starting curled and using an uncurling action to play. Contrary to what I'd always imagined, I need literally zero inward action to avoid collapse. The issue is whether this is because I developed certain ligaments over time, or whether it's purely due to alignment issues. I really don't know the answer to whether you need to develop strength or coordination yet- but I can say that I have one quite advanced student who had a severe problem but who has learned to collapse vastly less often, since I showed her not how to curl, but to extend back and away from an initial curl.

This is going to result in misinterpreted words and a futile argument about a point we agree on if I try to answer in any detail..  I personally think that the line between strength and coordination is very fine.. there is strength, but it is not strength in the way that anyone who has not developed this specific kind perceives that word...  and that the strength is only developed through coordination.

I'm sure you've done the exercises in craft of piano and have experimented with say the balance of the thumb while moving other fingers, shifting the arm etc..  and in turn experienced that initial complete unsteadiness on the thumb, constantly flailing into a collapse one way or another. Once resolved I find that the coordination/balance learnt gives the hand a sense of power and strength.. and its kind of wrong to suggest that it is not a kind of strength... but I don't get about telling people they need to be stronger, because they misinterpret.

I'm not personally convinced here. The student I mentioned is at grade 6 level and very musical. It's largely been a case of improving her sound by concentration on physical stability issues and by getting her to move with greater confidence. The sound was something that had to be unlocked by other means. She'd still be collapsing like crazy now, if I didn't deal with the issue in physical terms. At beginner level, a collapse has so little influence on the sound (as long as they play with confident action) that I don't believe any musical issues would be likely to help. At best, they'd be a reminder of a problem, rather than a fix.

I didn't say don't address the physical, I just said have a sound in mind as the goal.. so that there is musical purpose behind the technique.. rather than just technique for the sake of technique. This doesn't have to be complex..  the transition between 2 adjacent white keys can create a loss of balance and diminish dynamic control..  example..
                        <
4/8 - rest C E G | F... E

Cresc to F, trail off onto E.

Doing this consistently will present sufficient challenge if there is a general lack of stability. Now the student has to learn to be stable in order to produce the dynamic easily. They can see what their trying to do..  it works better than just saying "play in this way because i say you should" if there isn't a musical aim the student doesn't understand why the technique makes their playing better.

[nyiregyhazi]

This is going to result in misinterpreted words and a futile argument about a point we agree on if I try to answer in any detail..  I personally think that the line between strength and coordination is very fine.. there is strength, but it is not strength in the way that anyone who has not developed this specific kind perceives that word...  and that the strength is only developed through coordination.

I'm sure you've done the exercises in craft of piano and have experimented with say the balance of the thumb while moving other fingers, shifting the arm etc..  and in turn experienced that initial complete unsteadiness on the thumb, constantly flailing into a collapse one way or another. Once resolved I find that the coordination/balance learnt gives the hand a sense of power and strength.. and its kind of wrong to suggest that it is not a kind of strength... but I don't get about telling people they need to be stronger, because they misinterpret.

I'm absolutely with you on that.  I would never encourage anything forceful. I'm just curious on objective grounds. To what extent am I stronger and to what extent do I just have a habit of aligning better? Do I rely on precise coordination or does something physical mean my joint couldn't collapse anyway? Is it even the case that some people have a physical disadvantage from day 1, and that others can avoid collapse in general very easily? I know that I have yet to find a student who is literally incapable of a balanced position (particularly when starting nail down and working back from there) but I'm intrigued by whether pianists who don't collapse are necessarily relying on ligaments to prevent collapse or if good alignment and coordination stops the ligaments being an issue anyway. Is the fact that my joints don't collapse easily a safety net that I am constantly falling back on, or is it merely incidental to a consistent coordination that would have rarely allowed collapse anyway?  There's no simple answer, but it's interesting to wonder about it.

I didn't say don't address the physical, I just said have a sound in mind as the goal.. so that there is musical purpose behind the technique.. rather than just technique for the sake of technique. This doesn't have to be complex..  the transition between 2 adjacent white keys can create a loss of balance and diminish dynamic control..  example..
                        <
4/8 - rest C E G | F... E

Cresc to F, trail off onto E.

Doing this consistently will present sufficient challenge if there is a general lack of stability. Now the student has to learn to be stable in order to produce the dynamic easily. They can see what their trying to do..  it works better than just saying "play in this way because i say you should" if there isn't a musical aim the student doesn't understand why the technique makes their playing better.

Okay, I see your point. It's just that a student can often get away with it even when collapsing. I think it's very important for a student to be able to start with the physical awareness of collapses and then to realise the impact on sound. I don't think the harm of collapses is substantial enough until later, for them to reliably spot them via the sound itself. To this day, I have almost as many instances where perception that is primarily of a movement issue tells me that something in the sound could be better as I have times when the sound tells me to change something in my movement. Sometimes, we can miss the impact a movement issue has on sound until we've stopped to clear up the movement issue on its own terms. At that point, I realise quite how much sound based improvement was possible and adapt my awareness of sound issues as a result. I think it should be a two-way street, but on this issue I think it's way easier to appreciate the physical fault than to wait until it causes glaring audible problems.

[hmpiano]

Ligaments??  Which ligaments?

[falala]

You're question is however a little too vague, approaches to such concerns may be age dependant..

Yeah sorry I should have said - the beginners I'm referring to are young children, mostly between 6-8 years old. I assume the tendency of the knuckle to collapse has something to do with them not having developed stability or resistence in the joints generally by that age.

One thing I find wierd - and I don't know whether this is true of other adults or is just me - is that I CAN'T collapse the knuckle the way they do. I'm physically incapable of it. So to demonstrate the difference between what they do and the right way, I have to push down hard on my knuckle with the other hand, and then I can JUST get a very slight dip in it.

I don't know however whether this is primarily a child/adult difference or a beginner/experienced difference - ie whether my knuckles are incapable of collapse because I'm older, or because I've played the piano a long time with focus on keeping them curved.

Rather than trying to teach a specific shape or technique because you know it works, I suggest you try to teach a musical expression or sound.. and then show them how to do it with the right technique. Your student needs a reason not to collapse the knuckle. Present a musical problem that requires better finger shape (no collapses) to maintain control and comfort.

That’s an interesting idea as I’ve never really thought about why collapsed knuckles are a problem – it just seems obvious that they don’t lead to good coordination and control. One thing I’ve discovered exploring it with my students is that they make it harder to control the release of the key afterwards, thus blurring the legato. Another is that they tend to lead to collapse of the bridge of the hand, which makes raising the fingers harder.

[falala]

My own tip for beginners- try getting them to rest their nail flat on a surface and then extend back from there, to raise the knuckles right up. In my experience, you can always find a point midway where balance is absolutely fine (although go a fraction further and they will start to collapse again).

I agree with that, and that's what I generally do. It's just that often, to obtain that balance, they need to have the end part of the finger virtually vertical to the key. Extend it outwards even a fraction and the joint collapses. We can avoid the collapse completely by playing with a very marked curl that brings the fingers up and down like little hammers, but that of course is the opposite of what people like Beauchamp or my French piano teacher propose when they talk about using the hand muscles. The question is whether that's something that just has to wait till a later stage when the end knuckle has enough resistance to be able to extend without collapsing.

Interestingly it seems to happen on some fingers more than others. Index finger seems particularly bad for several students.

[nyiregyhazi]

Ligaments??  Which ligaments?

The ones that pertain to what we have been talking about. If you want the official anatomical name then look it up yourself. My interest in jargon is zero.

[keypeg]

I just noticed that in the opening posts only discussed the hand part of the playing mechanism.  Should the rest be considered too?

[nyiregyhazi]

I just noticed that in the opening posts only discussed the hand part of the playing mechanism.  Should the rest be considered too?

Well not every thread can be about the whole of technique. Speaking of the single most important area doesn't mean the rest is forgotten. That said, it is often the case that students who collapse use needless arm pressures.

[hmpiano]

The ones that pertain to what we have been talking about. If you want the official anatomical name then look it up yourself. My interest in jargon is zero.

I don't think the names of ligaments could be called jargon, they are after all only descriptive names in latin.  Perhaps you'd condescend enough to describe them for us readers in English then?   The OP was happy to name the muscles.  

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't think the names of ligaments could be called jargon, they are after all only place names in latin.  Perhaps you'd condescend enough to place them for us readers?   The OP was happy to name the muscles.  

There's a functional reason for knowing about the interosseus action- specifically that it permits activity from an open position that opens further. Alternative actions force the hand to close up. This is of phenomenal relevance to practical issues, especially for pianists with small hands.

If you'd care to name a single reason why knowledge of mere labellings for ligaments would aid awareness of what is physically possible, I'll consider learning them. Otherwise, my interest remains at nil. If you want to make a futile attempt to impress a crowd of totally uninterested parties, by all means name them yourself, if you get off on that. Unfortunately, people tend to stop being impressed by "look at the string of irrelevant information that I managed to dispassionately memorise" stunts once the person performing such a vapid feat reaches their mid-teens. At that point, you have to start processing information into a functional context, rather than merely reciting it.

[nyiregyhazi]

One thing I find wierd - and I don't know whether this is true of other adults or is just me - is that I CAN'T collapse the knuckle the way they do. I'm physically incapable of it. So to demonstrate the difference between what they do and the right way, I have to push down hard on my knuckle with the other hand, and then I can JUST get a very slight dip in it.

I don't know however whether this is primarily a child/adult difference or a beginner/experienced difference - ie whether my knuckles are incapable of collap. se because I'm older, or because I've played the piano a long time with focus on keeping them curved

Sounds like we've been through very similar thought processes. I discovered something just now though. Generally it's quite hard to collapse my fingers. However I did realise that there's a particular type of activity that I have eliminated, but which makes collapse happen easily if I reinstate it. Basically, if I feel that the middle joint of the finger is trying to close, it completely collapses the end joint. However,  when I feel the extending action completing (starting with nail resting down flat and working back all the way to a straight line at about 45 degrees) there is no jolt anywhere in the whole movement.

Do you have the same experience, or is collapse still impossible with this style of thought? After finding this, I'm veering more towards the coordination idea rather than the strength of ligaments (although it could still involve the latter too, to some extent). It seems counterintuitive initially, but  looking at my finger it's now become very obvious why pulling back from the mid-joint would act to flatten out the end joint. It's when I do the very opposite of closing actions that the joint is least inclined to suddenly give way. Could it be that trying to use the activity of curling is actually what triggers the collapse?

[nyiregyhazi]

I agree with that, and that's what I generally do. It's just that often, to obtain that balance, they need to have the end part of the finger virtually vertical to the key. Extend it outwards even a fraction and the joint collapses. We can avoid the collapse completely by playing with a very marked curl that brings the fingers up and down like little hammers, but that of course is the opposite of what people like Beauchamp or my French piano teacher propose when they talk about using the hand muscles.

Personally, I do actually use near vertical fingers for much of my practise now. It's not so unusual, if you look at Rubinstein, Pletnev, Curzon and many others. Also, if you practise from that position, even if you return to flatter fingers, it helps you stay in a much more functional position. If I don't practise op. 10 no. 1 with a vertical 5th, the results are terrible when I go back to normal. By practising that way, my 5th still flattens out in faster playing, but keeps a healthier sense of balance (in which the knuckle doesn't droop).

I think the key might be maintaining enough finger activity, after that tipping point. By then, students often start to relax the finger action too much. There's a way of conceiving the extending action that I detail in this post:

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/fingers-core-of-piano-technique-part-i.html

I find that I need to maintain that activity all the way through and eliminate all active arm pressure. I think the tendency of students is to get to a certain point and start relaxing the finger and pressing the arm. At that point, the balance suddenly falls apart. If the arm is light and it's the finger creating length, it's possible to go through to full length without that sudden jolt.

[hmpiano]

If you'd care to name a single reason why knowledge of mere labellings for ligaments would aid awareness of what is physically possible, I'll consider learning them.

Again, which ligaments?  Duh...  Still, no worries, I give up - if you're unable to simply  name the ligaments you're talking about, you obviously don't know them from a hole in the ground.

[nyiregyhazi]

Again, which ligaments?  Duh...  Still, no worries, I give up - if you're unable to simply  name the ligaments you're talking about, you obviously don't know them from a hole in the ground.

I'm talking about practicalities with reference to piano playing. If you cannot cite any, my interest in jargon yet again remains at nil. If you want a competition as to who has rote-learned the most jargon, you have my congratulations on your "win". Personally I'm quite happy at the objective existence of the ligaments, without worrying what external labelling others have applied to them.

I'm not going to respond to any further childish games, so you can stop trolling now. If you have something of practical relevance then post it. If not, we're done.