increasing multi track recording from 2 to ?

[skierdude]

Hi everyone.
This is my first post, but I've read a lot of them over the years. A few years ago I was going to buy the Yamaha CLP340. But I got laid off, then I had to replace a car that died, then had a kid... I'm now kind of in the position to replace our very bad acoustic piano with a digital one. The problem is, the 340 isn't made or sold any longer.

I've done some shopping around, and it seems the price of these pianos have gone up a bit. I can afford the Yamaha Arius 141 and maybe the 161 or 181, the 240 is out of my reach at this point. I know, a few years ago the 340 was in my grasp, but times have changed.

Our Story & Clark piano-organ needs replacing and our 9-yr old wants to start lessons. As you can tell, I'm shopping for a digital piano. I want him to have a relatively easy transition between the digital piano at home and real piano at lessons or grandparent's house, etc. I've narrowed my choices to two Casios, the PX850 ($1100) or the AP640 $(1400). I know, it seems many people on this forum aren't believers in the Casio line and like Roland, Yamaha, or Kawai better. However, because of my price range and criteria for realistic touch/feel/pedaling over realistic sound, I'm leaning towards the newer PX850. However, the AP640 has some features I don't understand because I'm not very electronically savvy (yet).

The AP640 has "general midi" and 16 track recording.
The PX850 has regular midi and 2 track recording.

I have no idea what midi will do for me, but the option of the multitrack recording sounds awesome. But, as I said, I'm leaning towards the PX850. I'm wondering if there's a way to "trick" the piano into doing more tracks. I guess I'm thinking I can record two tracks, then play them while I'm playing a 3rd track and record it all on the memory card or on a computer. Then play those 3 while I play a 4th, etc.

It's more labor intensive, but I don't know if I'd use the feature to offset the extra $300.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[quantum]

For a budget digital piano, I would concentrate more on the physical response of the keyboard to your playing than anything else.  A good MIDI implementation that uses standard MIDI data as opposed to SysEx would be wise. 

Software piano samples are at the level now where they are serious contenders as a replacement to a digital piano's built in sounds.  MIDI will allow you to send data from your keyboard to your computer in order to access such features.  It will also allow you to record MIDI tracks onto your computer, after which you can use a software sample set for the piano sound.  To be clear MIDI is not sound data, it is digital information on what notes were played, how loud they were played, when they were played, etc. 

You could start with just the digital piano as a stand alone.  From there, you can gradually upgrade your setup to using software piano sounds as budget allows. 

[skierdude]

Thanks. Not sure what you mean by standard and SysEx, but I got the gist of your reply: focus on  how the piano feels to play as opposed to "bells and whistles".

[hfmadopter]

Thanks. Not sure what you mean by standard and SysEx, but I got the gist of your reply: focus on  how the piano feels to play as opposed to "bells and whistles".

The essence of Sysx is basically  that it works through a utility that allows compiling of data in a transmission through midi. Standard midi doesn't require a utility. This is in the simplest form of explanation, perhaps someone could elaborate but I'm not a computer expert and this amount of information satisfies my techie side !

As to Casio, I have not played a casio that feels like a real piano. Not to say there isn't one but I have not played it if it's out there. I've come to the conclusion for me that I could care less about a digital pianos sound and would go to a better keyboard than a digital console style piano. You get one for less money with the better action. However, I have wood working skills, so if I wanted it in a cabinet I'd build one for it. But the higher end the keyboard is to a point, the better the action will be. A Kawai MP 6 for instance has nice action, the MP 10 even better with the wooden keys. Both have grand piano style action vs spring tension action. The Roland $2600 offering with Ivory touch keys feels darned close to my Miller Grand pianos keys at home, in fact the Ivory touch is nicer for grip since my key tops have been replaced.. That piano goes on fire sale from time to time at a place like Guitar center for just over $2000.  The older Yamaha Cp33 is not slouch in the key department either, it feels pretty darned nice and goes on sale well under $1000 now and then. That should about at the end of it's run though.

[quantum]

SysEx or System Exclusive, is generally proprietary data specific to a manufacturer, or even a select product of that manufacturer.  That means only devices that understand that data can interpret it, and as such, SysEx data is not universally readable by all MIDI devices. 

This is important to you because having an instrument that uses standard MIDI data to send messages allows maximum cross compatibility between MIDI devices.  You also specified a need for multitrack recording, which is another reason to pay attention to the MIDI implementation. 

[iansinclair]

Whoa!  Seems to me, from your original post, that the objective of the exercise is to get a digital piano which feels and reacts reasonably like a real piano, with which to learn to play piano.

And you have a limited budget (don't we all?).

When you are looking at digital pianos, concenrate on the feel and responsiveness of the keyboard.  The more like a real piano it is, the better it will be as a learning instrument.  Take the time from time to time to go and play a good acoustic piano while you are looking, so you can keep in mind the feel you are looking for.  There are a few very good digitals out there -- top end Kawai, Yamaha, Roland -- but they are pricey.

For learning, you do not need all the fancy electronic bells and whistles tacked onto digital pianos -- this isn't a stage keyboard for a rock band you're looking for, it's a piano.  All it has to do is sound more or less like a piano, and feel as much like one as possible.

If you have MIDI output, though, and access to a good, fast, computer hooked up to a very good sound system, and the appropriate software, you can make tremendous improvements in the sound of even the simplest digital piano.  But you can't improve the action that way...

There is an alternative: look into purchasing a good, well cared for, but used acoustic piano if you have the room for it.  Prices may not be all that much different.

[indianajo]

Actually, you can get decent acoustic pianos for $50 to $100.  Not in tune, but not abused. Check all the keys work, the hammers are not bent, no strings broken, no dampers in the middle worn out.   If you are willing to move 600 lb and reject a few, prewar uprights go for zero.  The sound is different, kind of tinkley like the "authentic Beethoven era grand" I heard on Deutchewelle radio last spring.  I heard a real nice Mason & Hamlin spinet for $80 at Goodwill last spring, about 150 lb, not excessively loud for apartment dwellers, not fast enough for 3rd movement of Moonlight Sonata but surely fast enough for anything in John W. Schaum method book 1-5.  And the church just accepted a free Baldwin 40" console for the Sunday School room that sounds 1000% better than the $4000 yamaha studio piano they have on the podium. But the music committee hears music with their wallets, I think, the Yamaha impresses them every Sunday, even through the $50 microphone they had to put in it to get enough volume through the $100 Yamaha PA speakers.  The miked Yamaha sounds like a cardboard 45 rpm record off a cereal box, to me.     
If you have one channel of midi out, and a computer with midi in, you can get audacity or bandbox or some software and have as many tracks as you want- in the computer synthesizer-sequencer.  Very low $ after you have bought the PC.  Search picothinker and organforum.com for the midi basics thread, he really lays it out for the newbie.