How Hard is the Appassionata?

[cas70]

If you can do a decent rendition of, say, Moonlight 3rd movement could you hope to play the Appassionata or is it way harder?

[j_menz]

If you can do a decent rendition of Moonlight 3, you should be able to tell for yourself.

[cas70]

If you can do a decent rendition of Moonlight 3, you should be able to tell for yourself.

True, but so unhelpful.  The point is, obviously, I haven't tried it myself and was asking those who had to tell me how hard they think it is.  Before I start it I'm curious about what I'll find.

[j_menz]

True, but so unhelpful.  The point is, obviously, I haven't tried it myself and was asking those who had to tell me how hard they think it is.  Before I start it I'm curious about what I'll find.

If you've got it, have a look, have a play. That will tell you more than anyone else can.

[chopin2015]

If you've got it, have a look, have a play. That will tell you more than anyone else can.

Also, try more than just once.

[sucom]

The first movement of the Appassionata is harder than the Moonlight sonata.  Getting the semiquavers even and smooth in the second movement takes a little practice as does bringing up the speed of certain bars in the third movement.

The Moonlight is fairly easy to bring up to speed; it seems to just fall under the hands but there are some tricky areas in the Appassionata in the first and third movements especially.

[cmg]

The first movement of the Appassionata is harder than the Moonlight sonata.  Getting the semiquavers even and smooth in the second movement takes a little practice as does bringing up the speed of certain bars in the third movement.

The Moonlight is fairly easy to bring up to speed; it seems to just fall under the hands but there are some tricky areas in the Appassionata in the first and third movements especially.

I would agree with all of the above.  Except, I think the Appassionata presents particular problems with rotational elements in the first movement that are made very difficult due to speed and a need to produce a big, fat tone.  The sonata is really quite taxing at moments, but that should not deter you.  Begin now.  It will be a work in progress for a few years, then you'll have it.  Make sure you really love it, because it will take hours, days, weeks, months, years of practicing and living with it, to make it yours.  I think most of Beethoven is very difficult, frankly.

[thesixthsensemusic]

I would agree with all of the above.  Except, I think the Appassionata presents particular problems with rotational elements in the first movement that are made very difficult due to speed and a need to produce a big, fat tone.  The sonata is really quite taxing at moments, but that should not deter you.  Begin now.  It will be a work in progress for a few years, then you'll have it.  Make sure you really love it, because it will take hours, days, weeks, months, years of practicing and living with it, to make it yours.  I think most of Beethoven is very difficult, frankly.

I get your point but I think it's a bit exaggerated... Those middle period Beethoven sonatas are difficult indeed but won't take years to master, if you practice correctly and efficiently a couple of weeks per movement would be realistic for someone who got the technique to play Moonlight Sonata pt. 3 well. At least, a year or 10 ago I did exactly that, and I don't consider myself to be particularly talented at all. There are a few VERY awkward bits in the first and third movement but I can't see how they would improve after playing them for years, if anything that time passing by, while keeping the piece in your repertoire, would mean your flaws, if any, would become ever more embedded in your habit and motoric memory... a few days of fine tuning will be far more likely to get rid of any mistakes, even if it's just something as playing some notes at these rotating points (I take it you mean the end of the first page of MVT. 1 with the broken chords for example) on time but slightly uneven in volume... slow practice and well paying attention to every bit of hand and arm movement of such a bit would help you straighten that out.

[cmg]

I get your point but I think it's a bit exaggerated... Those middle period Beethoven sonatas are difficult indeed but won't take years to master, if you practice correctly and efficiently a couple of weeks per movement would be realistic for someone who got the technique to play Moonlight Sonata pt. 3 well. At least, a year or 10 ago I did exactly that, and I don't consider myself to be particularly talented at all. There are a few VERY awkward bits in the first and third movement but I can't see how they would improve after playing them for years, if anything that time passing by, while keeping the piece in your repertoire, would mean your flaws, if any, would become ever more embedded in your habit and motoric memory... a few days of fine tuning will be far more likely to get rid of any mistakes, even if it's just something as playing some notes at these rotating points (I take it you mean the end of the first page of MVT. 1 with the broken chords for example) on time but slightly uneven in volume... slow practice and well paying attention to every bit of hand and arm movement of such a bit would help you straighten that out.

I agree with your point.  I'm just referring to the "comfort factor" in playing a piece this big and rather taxing:  to feel really comfortable with it, you need to know in practice that there are no glitches in the hard parts.  Yes, you can learn it rather quickly, but under performance pressure all bets are off.  The "fault lines" tend to crack.  It takes a long time living with a piece like this and playing it to feel any comfort with it.  Unless, of course, you're Murray Perahia, etc.

Of course, my response is based on someone wanting to perform this sonata for an audience.  Not just an amateur or non-student who wants to learn it for himself.  In the latter case, your advice certainly holds.

[thesixthsensemusic]

That mostly depends on how well you can handle nervousness. Apart from that, I don't see any particular reason why you shouldn't be able to publicly perform a piece that you can play fine when on your own.

[sucom]

I played the Appassionata for my recital diploma at music college and in my view, it is WAY harder than the Moonlight sonata on many different levels.  I was playing the Moonlight sonata at around 13 but there is no way I could have tackled the Appassionata at that time.  I could perhaps have learnt it to a certain level but certainly not up to performance level. 

The appassionata requires musical maturity and strength and as I said before, there are some really tricky areas in all movements of the sonata which require some very disciplined practice!  It took me around 3 months to learn it from memory and get it up to speed. 

So my answer to the OP's question remains - It IS harder than the Moonlight, the two don't really compare in difficulty level.  There are quite a few other Beethoven sonatas which are more difficult to play than the Moonlight but not quite as difficult as the Appassionata and I believe some of these might be a better bet and more satisfying to attempt first before moving on to the Appassionata.

[cmg]

That mostly depends on how well you can handle nervousness. Apart from that, I don't see any particular reason why you shouldn't be able to publicly perform a piece that you can play fine when on your own.

You're joking, right?  Just how much real performance experience do you have? 

Well, read the post just above this one by "sucom."  Here's someone with real performance experience of this sonata, and I couldn't agree more with this assessment.  I've watched seasoned pros with this piece, in their fingers for decades, flame out on this sonata.  It's a bear and its tricky passages screw up the best artists.  Not for the feint of heart or those with limited experience.

No, "Appassionata" is not a piece for a pianist who's most difficult sonata to date is the last movement of the "Moonlight."  I play both.  They are in a different league altogether.

[thesixthsensemusic]

You're joking, right?  Just how much real performance experience do you have?  

Well, read the post just above this one by "sucom."  Here's someone with real performance experience of this sonata, and I couldn't agree more with this assessment.  I've watched seasoned pros with this piece, in their fingers for decades, flame out on this sonata.  It's a bear and its tricky passages screw up the best artists.  Not for the feint of heart or those with limited experience.

No, "Appassionata" is not a piece for a pianist who's most difficult sonata to date is the last movement of the "Moonlight."  I play both.  They are in a different league altogether.

Sorry, but this is my fault, I was confused with the Waldstein sonata. The Appassionata is a completely different league indeed, my apologies for the mistake. I learned that one in fact after the Waldstein sonata, but all this is many years ago (didn;t even play the piano for most of that time only started again last January).

The only thing which I still stand by is, that if you are good at coping with stress from performing, you have no problem playing pieces as well in front of an audience as at home. Some people have a natural ability to ignore the audience and that helps them, or even better, the healthy dose of stress comes as a performance enhancer.

[teran]

Honestly the best way to find out whether you can handle a piece is to just try it.

I usually ask my teacher for advice in terms of where to go next though, since he has an unbiased eye and can sort of figure out what my natural technique and personality gravitates towards, rather than me convincing myself I'd do a better job learning a certain piece.

Funnily enough I'm on my way to finish off the moonlight, and when I listed a bunch of sonatas I'd consider next, he said "Tempest would be a good choice, only has a few tricky passages and would suit your personality and style the best in my opinion".

It's weird, I feel it's a great compliment to have someone even say I actually have a persona at the piano.

Anyway that tangent was meant to lead me back to the point that if you can comfortably manage the technical aspects of Moonlight, I don't see Appassionata being out of your reach technically either per se, but it will be very difficult, there is no such thing as a piece of music that isn't difficult. Music is inherently difficult. As long as you put in dedication and passion, you will get something out of tackling the sonata.

I say do it I don't see why not, if you're at the level of learning the 3rd movement of Moonlight I assume you have a teacher and so it's not like you'd perpetuate any sort of flawed execution by lkearning such a difficult new piece.

[nanabush]

I'm working on the Appassionata right now, and two years ago another student was working on the Moonlight.  I was noticing some of the broken 16th figures in the Moonlight 3rd movement are really tough... (the part where the high G# is the pedal tone, and you have the thumb playing different notes alternating with it...)


Anyways; the 3rd Movement of the Appassionata is fast like the Moonlight 3rd, but honestly I think it crushes it technically.  When the left hand takes the initial fast theme in the recap... brutal.  The coda is pretty nuts too, but I think the hardest part is either when the left hand plays the chords broken 15-23-15-23 or when both hands have the contrapuntal bit going (both in sixteenths, about mid-way through).  There's so much meaty stuff to work with, and it's just so blazingly fast and doesn't let up!

And I agree 100% with rotational stuff in the first movement.  The very first fast passage is a perfect example; the g# minor theme (that returns in f minor) for the right hand.  And keeping those damn repeated notes perfect, while keeping the overall tension of the piece up.  I'm really not sure at this point which movement is giving me more trouble...

[cas70]

I want to thank all of the above who have given advice.  I knew it would be difficult and a major commitment in time and effort.  I appreciate your sharing your experiences with it.

[pianovlad1996]

This is so relative... 'Decent' is out of the vocabulary of a pianist. If you have a 'decent' interpretation for Op.27 No.2 mov.3, you will probably have a sloppy and crumby one for Appassionata. But, it always depends on the player. 

[indianajo]

Thanks for the opinions. I have been working on and off on Moonlight Mvt. 3 for 30 years. Now that I am retired I'm creeping up on Op. 27 as fast as I will want to play it at my age.  My second favorite Beethoven Sonata is Appasionata, and have started reading page 1. No, retirement doesn't involve the luxury of a hiring a teacher.  Aren't records and CD's wonderful.   Gives you something to work towards, if you have a good ear. Actually, I had one session last spring with a teacher with Moonlight, I made a dozen more mistakes than I do at home, that is what I wanted to know.  Disappointingly, her biggest suggestion was she wanted me to play first beat accented triplets on Op 27 movement 1, like the lovers were riding a Swiss steamboat around Lake Lucerne or something.  I prefer unaccented triplets like a gondolier sculling a little boat smoothly across Lake Como in the dark. 

[cmg]

Thanks for the opinions. I have been working on and off on Moonlight Mvt. 3 for 30 years. Now that I am retired I'm creeping up on Op. 27 as fast as I will want to play it at my age.  Actually, I had one session last spring with a teacher with Moonlight, I made a dozen more mistakes than I do at home, that is what I wanted to know.  Disappointingly, her biggest suggestion was she wanted me to play first beat accented triplets on Op 27 movement 1, like the lovers were riding a Swiss steamboat around Lake Lucerne or something.  I prefer unaccented triplets like a gondolier sculling a little boat smoothly across Lake Como in the dark.  

Yes, "sculling a little boat smoothly across Lake Como in the dark."  Indianajo, that's the most evocative description of this movement I've ever read.  It's how I hear it, too.

The third movement has been such a journey for me.  The way it's most often played is almost like an etude -- typewriter-clean, fast-as-hell arpeggios clattering up the keyboard.  Yawn.  But my teacher has another idea:  not original, but musical, in that these arpeggios are portentous, packed with drama and, with every top note slightly accented, spell out the chord, and the song Beethoven's singing as the first subject of the last movement.  Flexibility in the rhythm, an early first hesitancy, followed by a more rapid ascent, until that gunshot.  Then over again.

And all the magnificent "tunes" that follow.  Big tone.  Sing out.  Take your time.  My teacher's quote:  "If you take this movement moderato with complete musical commitment, it will sound presto."

[asuhayda]

Appassionata is brutally hard.  I think it's way harder than Moonlight 3rd mvmt.  You probably just need to give it a whirl and see how it goes.  The first movement is the hardest for me because I'm not particularly great at trilling on my week fingers (3-5).  Plus, I'm not overly happy with the sound I produce in those intense contrary motion sections.  Basically, everything that I'm bad at (concerning Beethoven) is packed into the 1st movement.  I really love the 2nd and 3rd movements though.  I thought originally that the 3rd movement would be harder than the first, but that has not been the case for me.  The 3rd movement compliments my skillset a little bit more.  Plus, mvmt 3 just speaks to me more I guess.

Good Luck with this piece. It's a major virtuosic milestone if you can play it well.

[the89thkey]

I would only play Appassionata if you are sure about being able to handle it. Otherwise do an easier Beethoven and wait another 6 months for your technique to improve.