Memory lapses

[outin]

The eternal subject of frustration...

I am beginning to realize that I actually do not suffer from an inability to memorize at all, I do it pretty quickly. What I suffer from is the inability to find and use what I have memorized from my messy brain.

This weekend when I had more time to play I played many pieces that I had not worked on for some time and also my new ones. And the same thing occurred several times: I could play the piece completely out from the blue. And then a bit later I was completely unable to remember some parts and even had to take out the sheets to look. It also happens with things I have practiced every day for weeks. If I have several practice sessions on one day, I may remember everything and later when I practice again I completely forget what to play and cannot recall it no matter how much I try. I have used many techiques to make my memorization of the pieces more reliable, but they don't seem to have any effect on these lapses, they occur just as much in pieces that I have learned really thoroughly than others.

Some part of the problem might be my concentration problems but maybe there's also something about my brain that isn't completely wired the way it should. I often have similar experiences in everyday life.

I don't know if I can do much about the issue itself (maybe a brain transplant?), but I really need to get rid of the frustration that follows these memory lapses to be able to practice efficiently... I'm just not the most patient person around...

[mercerreid]

Hey outin!

This happens to me too. Have you observed what time of day the memory lapses are occurring? I know I get tired and frustrated around sunset, and it gets harder to concentrate at this time. Also, you may be practicing too much. Piano, like Maths or English, require breaks in order to absorb the information. Why don't you try getting a drink or reading a book every 30mins, maybe that might help?

[outin]

Hey outin!

This happens to me too. Have you observed what time of day the memory lapses are occurring? I know I get tired and frustrated around sunset, and it gets harder to concentrate at this time. Also, you may be practicing too much. Piano, like Maths or English, require breaks in order to absorb the information. Why don't you try getting a drink or reading a book every 30mins, maybe that might help?

Probably time of the day has an effect for me too. It may also be about stress and tiredness, because sometimes my mind is very clear and I can even sight read rather well. Those moments are just too rare 

The time I have practiced seems to make little difference. If I just stick to it for long enough it actually gets better.

[hfmadopter]

If you find a working answer to this keep us posted ! All I can say is that back in my 30s I memorized whole recitals. At 62 it's taken 3 months to memorize the first three lines of David Nevues Silent Night and then I lose my place on the sheet after that memorized part is accomplished, fortunately only from time to time. But overall the piece is going fantastically, so I just won't complain about it. Also fortunately, that's the only piece in my Christmas Eve performance that required any complete memorization of a section at all and that was supposed to be so I could transition from the intro into the main body of the piece smoothly, or so I thought.. David's Winter Walk has two short passages memorized as well, it's a section with some heavy bass counter action happening.

At this point I know it well enough that I can read it or play by memory, that intro and beyond but if my mind wanders for what ever reason it could derail. So I've determined that it's a focus issue. I've gone to practicing after a glass of wine and then play it another day after a cup of coffee. You would be amazed at the difference !! And for me morning is definately the better time to practice in general, just I have to go to work for 6 AM so that rarely happens during the week. By the time 5 PM rolls around, some days I don't even want to look at the piano much less play it. Other days are fine, some days I just push myself.

[hardy_practice]

Technically I'm very good, problem is I constantly forget odd little notes.  Is that the problem?  It takes me ages to learn stuff mostly for this reason.  I put it down to an inability to play by ear.

[nyiregyhazi]

Can you play a piece slowly from memory, with one finger? If not, you simply don't really know the music. This isn't a boast- I'm truly crap at doing that with most pieces. But unless you can do that reliably, you can't accurately say that you really know the music. It's physical habit- and it's no surprise that this will tend to fall down.

[iansinclair]

there was something I was going to say about this thread... but I forget what it was... 

At the fine age of almost 71, i find that memorizing stuff does come a little slower -- to put it mildly.  And as has been said, if you find a way to get around the problem, let us all know!  I do find that simply practicing a piece until it begins to get really into my fingers still works pretty well; that is, I will still have the music up there on the rack, but most of the time I'm not using it (which does lead to the occasional "Oh phooey -- where am I?" moments when I do want to look at it... sigh...).

[teran]

I rely pretty much entirely from memory (not really out of choice).

What I find stops lapses from happening is not just unwavering focus, but knowing what you're going to hear next, not where your hands are going. It's not really muscle memory because as an accomplished pianist you sort of instinctively know where your hands go to produce a certain sound. Just like in sight reading where you're actually reading slightly ahead at all times, in the case of playing by memory the sound comes in your head first and then you reproduce it.

You constantly need to know where you're going. If you listen to a piece that you know well you can obviously do this and probably do because the act of playing doesn't interrupt your anticipation. Just try applying it to playing and see where it takes you.

[outin]

Can you play a piece slowly from memory, with one finger?

That's one of the things I have done to make sure I really know the piece. It certainly was useful, but did not stop the memory from failing at one time, while working well on another 

[pianoman53]

Being able to play with one finger seems to be more an end result than a way to actually learn it... And playing a longer piece would take a bit too long time no? And what about chords?

From the top of my head, I can come up with two ways that might improve it.

One way is simply mental practice. Since you're an adult learner, I assume you have some other things to, and therefore can't practice at a piano for that long. Maybe you can think the score in your head? First you can start at hearing all the sound in your head (a phrase at the time, and repeat it a few times). When you can do that, start thinking notes/picture the piano, then try to remember the movements you do.

If that doesn't help, I think it has to do with the way you practice. First thing to do is to know what to play. Second thing is to hear it in your head, and imagine the way you want to hear it. Then you play one small part. Don't do like most people, and do it the other way around. So: Think, listen, play.

It works for me, and I hope it will work for you too

[p2u_]

Can you play a piece slowly from memory, with one finger? If not, you simply don't really know the music.

Playing the piece/melody in octaves is also nice. You can do that in Bach's two-part inventions with both hands, for example, and it is really fun.

Reproducing music on a dumb keyboard (no audio feedback) is very, very effective as well.

P.S.: The trick for good recall is to activate as many senses/types of awareness as possible during practice. The trick to check whether it all works well is to systematically leave out one or more of those elements and see what happens. In the end, for me at least, it all comes down to black and white (keyboard images), and body/arm/hand/finger positions. One movement of the body you did not rehearse (oh... where is that third pedal?) and you may get a blackout, notwithstanding the generally accepted idea that the ears and all your theoretical knowledge will surely help you out. Eating and sleeping regularly also helps.

Paul

[hfmadopter]

Playing the piece/melody in octaves is also nice. You can do that in Bach's two-part inventions with both hands, for example, and it is really fun.

Reproducing music on a dumb keyboard (no audio feedback) is very, very effective as well.

P.S.: The trick for good recall is to activate as many senses/types of awareness as possible during practice. The trick to check whether it all works well is to systematically leave out one or more of those elements and see what happens. In the end, for me at least, it all comes down to black and white (keyboard images), and body/arm/hand/finger positions. One movement of the body you did not rehearse (oh... where is that third pedal?) and you may get a blackout, notwithstanding the generally accepted idea that the ears and all your theoretical knowledge will surely help you out. Eating and sleeping regularly also helps.

Paul

I agree, in my case I have to add that's all well and good but add some age and doctor induced chemicals ( presription drugs, I take five different kinds of those ) and  it's a whole different ball game. I've added  or my wife has actually, various vitamins and herbs to counter some of this and I can play the piano very well once the piece is fully learned. I'm fortunate that sight reading is getting stronger and will be happy if that continues to grow. I've kind of tossed any kind of trick learning of memorization out the window personally. I know it can be done, I did it when I was younger but alas, life marches on. I'm very very happy to be playing the piano at all ! To be tuning and working on the piano and to be doing some teaching as well is an added bonus for me. My return to piano is going better than I expected ( prompted by my X-wife and oldest daughter I might add), though taking a bit of extra concentration and time to do it..

[p2u_]

I've kind of tossed any kind of trick learning of memorization out the window personally.

I see what you mean. Actually, I NEVER encourage my students to deliberately memorize anything (the result is very often inadequate under performance pressure anyway if you do that). Memorizing, if required at all by the circumstances (students within the traditional education system, for example, have no choice) should be the result of intensive practice, good work, done with joy and full concentration, experimenting, etc.

Paul

[nyiregyhazi]

Being able to play with one finger seems to be more an end result than a way to actually learn it... And playing a longer piece would take a bit too long time no? And what about chords?

I'd say it's both a practise method and a test, rolled into one. It improves visualisation of the basic makeup (when initially done via the score) as well as it tests whether that visualisation is there or not when done by memory. Ultimately it's basically a preparation for going to to purer mental practise.

The problem with mental practise is knowing where your holes are. It's very easy not to know that you didn't know one of the notes when it's entirely done in the head. When you have to play with one finger on the piano, you automatically expose that. Also, in the preparatory stages, you are giving vastly more direct awareness of various areas than when merely reading through a score. Another trick is to try to say every letter of every note out loud. You cannot do so without truly zoning in on the visualisation for literally EVERY note (this is what it's really about- saying the letter is just a guaranteed trigger)- so again any mental holes are exposed. Pure visualisation is very hard to go straight into (and leaves many people doing it superficially and giving up, due to general bewilderment about what it must entail to be useful) so its important to have these preparatory exercises/tests of quality before going on to attempt the pure version of fully internal visualisation in a way that is definitely meaningful. Also, in chords, if you really know them well, it should be possible to play every note with one finger, in succession. If that's not possible, any attempted visualisation work has been missing things out. Often, people just hear through a melody line horizontally- without processing the awareness of what goes on vertically within thicker harmonies.

[pianoman53]

Ok, thanks for making it clear.

I don't know, but for me it works well, and I'm perfectly aware of my weak point when I practice mentally. The thing is that you have to be very hard on yourself. Not like "the passage starts somewhere here, and end somewhere here". But I see your point - one needs to practice quite some time to be able to do it. I actually even started with trying to just count to 10 in my head, without losing focus, which actually us very difficult in the beginning.

The "backside" of actually playing it is that your ear will help you out. For me, it's more effective to do it away from the piano... But everyone is different in that.

[sucom]

I have always relied on several senses when trying to memorise something.  There is a photographic memory where you can see the notes on the page in your mind's eye.  Then there is the aural memory, where your memory of the sound takes over small lapses.  There is the muscle memory when you find your fingers just know where to go without thinking about it, and then there is the mental memory, where you have literally analysed the exact notes in each small section.

Breaking music into small sections is tremendously helpful because it's far easier to remember small sections which can then be linked together.  For example, if asked to remember a sequence of numbers 13124689753 for example, it's much easier to remember 131, 2468, 9753.  I would see the pattern in each section and then link them together.

Being a good sight reader is NOT helpful at all because part of memory consists of repeating something so many times that your fingers just do it without thinking about it.  Something just takes over.  If you can sight read very easily, the number of repetitions is going to naturally be less than if you really have to repeat something over and over to learn it.   But at the same time, the other senses have their part to play, all leaning on and helping each other whenever one sense fails.

[rmbarbosa]

My method is a very slow one, but it is good, I think. First, I study the struture of the music and how it develops from the theme: inversions, mirror, retrogrades, tonality changes, etc... I do this away from the piano. When I have understood all this, I use "mental playing", visualizing in my mind the sheetmusic and each key. Then, I practice HS only one bar or one musical phrase, a lot of times. Doing this, I say the name of each note (or sing the name). After this, I study the next bar, allways repeating it a lot of times and saying or singing each note. Then, I play the two bars a lot of times, in the same way... The same with each one of the other bars. So, when I finished a section, I have repeated the first bar for example 50 times, the second 49, the third 48 and so on. Allways with the name of each key. So, after this, I`m able to wright from memory all the sheat music, without any mistake. Mental memory, fingers mechanical memory, visual memory, structural memory... But my work isnt finished yet. I go to the use of the pedals, the dinamycs, etc. When all is done, I play daily this music at least five times, along a month or even more. And I only know that I have the piece studied when I can play it "saying" it from my heart and my mind, without any technical dificulty. When I was 15 years old, I have study the 12 variations of Mozart "Ah, vous dirai-je maman". With 30 years old, I went to Angola where I coudnt play piano along 5 years. When I returned to Portugal, I could play them without any mistake, and without the sheet music, only by memory. Thats why I have a lot of pieces I can play easily, by memory.

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't know, but for me it works well, and I'm perfectly aware of my weak point when I practice mentally. The thing is that you have to be very hard on yourself. Not like "the passage starts somewhere here, and end somewhere here". But I see your point - one needs to practice quite some time to be able to do it. I actually even started with trying to just count to 10 in my head, without losing focus, which actually us very difficult in the beginning.

Are you absolutely sure you're aware of your weak points? The whole thing about blind spots when going entirely in the head is the very fact that it's so difficult to recognise blind spots, unless you are rigorous about using methods that will expose them. I think there are relatively few people who actually cover all of the information from every conceivable angle, when doing it purely internally. Can you play the right hand with the left and vice versa (one at a time and slowly- the key is not whether you can go fast or do it with technical ease but whether you can visualise clearly enough to do it with plenty of time available)? If not, arguably the whole internal picture is a big hole, from start to finish! I freely admit that I can rarely do this myself, but frankly I ought to be able to before I can say I "know" a piece.

Often I have little awareness of a blind spot until I use a specific exercise to expose it. There are places where I can imagine executing a movement, but if I have to say the letter name of every note in turn within my head (or play every key with one finger on the piano) I may expose the mental rehearsal I'd instinctively do was only of how to execute- not based on consistently imagining each note of what I would be executing. Starts and ends are usually very clear for me, but it's notes that fall between the most obvious reference points that I tend to struggle to picture by musical construction, rather than by mere imagination of a movement.

In fact, even when I do it in my head with accuracy it's based heavily on physical habit. I often realise I'm imagining movements to go on to imagine the notes. I think you can kind of learn backwards from this- but the ideal ought to be that when you do the imagining part you can imagine if you played every note with a single finger- so you have a pure grasp of construction that is entirely independent of movement. If you always picture learned movements to picture notes, it's the mental equivalent of relying on physical habit- rather than starting from clear understanding and building up from there.

[hardy_practice]

I'd go with pianoman's advice.  It takes a hell of a lot of brain activity to visualize a piece totally but it never fails you.  Only problem is you sink back into muscle memory weeks later and have to do it all over again!  The brain just doesn't want the effort.

[pianoman53]

I can honestly say (swear to God and all that..) that when I bother to do it, I can. I always to Bach fugues this way, but apart from that, I rarely find it that helpful, for now. Usually, there wont be time to think about it anyway. However, there was once where I was going to perform Schumann's Symphonic etudes, and I did it like that. I could recite every note! From beginning to end, end to beginning, upside down, only every second note, and so on... It didn't even take that long, but it kind of ruined the music, cause once I played it, it took some time before I could actually trust that I really knew it.

Though, i don't quite believe in it anymore. If there is no risk in performing, it's no fun.

[outin]

I read a lot of good advice on this thread and I have tried most of them. I just see no improvement because the memory lapses happen in any random parts of the pieces and mostly different places every time. They may happen in a very simple measure or when a phrase/section ends. My mind just goes blank. In theory I know perfectly well what to play but I cannot make my brain concentrate on what to do. I think it has something to do with my mind not having challenge enough when playing pieces that I know already so it starts shutting down until there's only muscle memory left and sooner or later it fails...Usually the longer (not meaning on the same sitting but in general) I have practiced the piece, the more memory lapses occur which seems odd, because it should be the other way round I guess?

I wonder if I should make up words to the music so that my mind would stay more active when playing, because I seldom forget songs...?

[hardy_practice]

I think it has something to do with my mind not having challenge enough when playing pieces that I know already so it starts shutting down until there's only muscle memory left and sooner or later it fails..

That's my experience too.  All the time your brain wants to work less and muscle memory, the worst type, is its solution. 

[teran]

I wonder if I should make up words to the music so that my mind would stay more active when playing, because I seldom forget songs...?

That's actually not a bad idea. I've seen some pianists humming/singing out the melody they're playing (quietly of course) and I guess it must help them.

[pianoman53]

I read a lot of good advice on this thread and I have tried most of them. I just see no improvement because the memory lapses happen in any random parts of the pieces and mostly different places every time. They may happen in a very simple measure or when a phrase/section ends. My mind just goes blank. In theory I know perfectly well what to play but I cannot make my brain concentrate on what to do. I think it has something to do with my mind not having challenge enough when playing pieces that I know already so it starts shutting down until there's only muscle memory left and sooner or later it fails...Usually the longer (not meaning on the same sitting but in general) I have practiced the piece, the more memory lapses occur which seems odd, because it should be the other way round I guess?

I wonder if I should make up words to the music so that my mind would stay more active when playing, because I seldom forget songs...?

Maybe it just doesn't work for you anymore. I know some professionals who actually quit performing because of it. So maybe you just have to accept it...?

[teran]

Come now a defeatist attitude is no way to go about things.

[nyiregyhazi]

I read a lot of good advice on this thread and I have tried most of them. I just see no improvement because the memory lapses happen in any random parts of the pieces and mostly different places every time. They may happen in a very simple measure or when a phrase/section ends. My mind just goes blank.

You phrase that as if that would be a surprise? It's not at all. It's the most classic pointer that means you are relying on physical habit rather than awareness of what you are doing. If the memory lapses come in random spots, that only reinforces the fact that you need to do develop memory in a way that works when completely abstracted from physical habit. If you have good all-round awareness of some passages but not others, it's the passages you know less that fail. If it's unpredictable, it shows that the depth of memorisation is not what it could be, in general, and that you need a much clearer perspective of the musical construction.

In theory I know perfectly well what to play but I cannot make my brain concentrate on what to do. I think it has something to do with my mind not having challenge enough when playing pieces that I know already so it starts shutting down until there's only muscle memory left and sooner or later it fails...Usually the longer (not meaning on the same sitting but in general) I have practiced the piece, the more memory lapses occur which seems odd, because it should be the other way round I guess?

This is actually quite normal. You need to avoid just repeating habits (which will degrade in quality with each repetition- unless you do thoughtful work to maintain quality) and continue to think about what you are doing- both with the score in front of you and without it. If you are able to visualise every note in your head (not just imagine the movements) you won't suddenly break down very easily. You must have a picture of what you are doing to match the movements. If not, every time your hands fail, everything fails.

[p2u_]

All the time your brain wants to work less and muscle memory, the worst type, is its solution.

Why would muscle memory be "the worst type" of memory?

There is a myth that concentrating on finger memory means that you are not listening to yourself and are therefore doomed to fail. This is simply not true. Actually, proprioception is the main part of a performer's memory and should be ingrained until it becomes unconscious. While I agree that it should not have our conscious attention during actual performance, during practice it is essential. Of course, we are not talking about fast and mindless rattling off of the same patterns. The focus is quality movement + constant evaluation of the intended sound image (Does what I do create the sound image I had in mind? If not, adjust). However strange that sounds, but you can also do that without aural feedback, because what your are listening to is your inner sound image.

Related to this is keyboard topographic memory (images of black and white), which should also be unconscious during performance, but deserves very much our attention during practice. After that comes the rest as merely supplementary functions and tricks that may help you to get you back on track if something goes wrong. Analysis of the musical material, the next chord, the next phrase, for example, helps somehow, but would quickly take us off track if it were the object of conscious attention during actual performance.

During performance, however, the focus is the mood of the piece, tone projection, etc. As long as you can keep that focus, you're OK, even if you think back about what you had for dinner last night, or even if you are wondering why that old lady in the fourth row keeps coughing all the time. Mood, emotion, in short EVERYTHING you expect to do during actual performance should also be rehearsed consciously, but that is really the last stage.

Paul

[outin]

You phrase that as if that would be a surprise? It's not at all. It's the most classic pointer that means you are relying on physical habit rather than awareness of what you are doing. If the memory lapses come in random spots, that only reinforces the fact that you need to do develop memory in a way that works when completely abstracted from physical habit. If you have good all-round awareness of some passages but not others, it's the passages you know less that fail. If it's unpredictable, it shows that the depth of memorisation is not what it could be, in general, and that you need a much clearer perspective of the musical construction.

I don't think so...because some of my pieces I have memorized to the level that I could write down the notes and play "in my head". And still I get complete blackouts when playing, and certainly not on the parts that I "know less". I used to think I just needed to work on the memorization itself, but now I am inclined to think this is not the solution. As I said, it has not helped at all. The problem seems to be more in the process of actual playing, keeping up the level of concentration long enough. I would need to learn to think about what I am doing while doing it, but that's something I cannot do. If there's no problem to solve anymore, my brain doesn't think it needs to work..it starts working on something unrelated to playing...

You need to avoid just repeating habits (which will degrade in quality with each repetition- unless you do thoughtful work to maintain quality) and continue to think about what you are doing-

Exactly, but do you have actual advice on how to do that?

[outin]

Maybe it just doesn't work for you anymore. I know some professionals who actually quit performing because of it. So maybe you just have to accept it...?

I kind of do...Performing is out of the question. But I find it also affects the quality of my lessons, because I am tense worrying about the next memory lapse. So we hardly ever get to the musical part of playing, I am just trying to get through the pieces. Which is a pity because it's so much nicer to play with my teacher's pianos. My teacher wants me to "just play" but I cannot anymore because I know too well it will lead into a disaster. Even at home it annoys me a lot. I enjoy practicing and working on the learning part. But when I really get into music and get to the level of actually liking what I hear, these memory lapses tend to ruin the experience.

Even with so many problems with reading, I do play more relaxed and often sound better musically when playing a piece for the first time than after practicing it for months. That's simply because there's no stress of forgetting, just the stress of reading the notes. If I am not too tired I can handle that and the misreadings are in a way acceptable...

[p2u_]

I used to think I just needed to work on the memorization itself, but now I am inclined to think this is not the solution.

I think you are right. The real solution is to ask yourself a couple of questions (don't sound the answer here on the forum):
1) Is memorization really required in my situation right now?
2) What is the worst thing that could happen if I forget something? How frightful is that really?

You may realize for yourself that if you throw your fear out the window and "just play", that the problem solves itself. You can't deny the negative; you have to replace it with something positive. Talk about this with people you trust. Giving up on yourself (I will never... etc.) is really the worst thing you can do. Don't!

You have been given some strategies to develop memory. Work on them WITHOUT THE EXPLICIT WISH TO MEMORIZE; just for the fun of it. You will see that systematic practice in the direction you like most will bring results, but these results will come unexpectedly; don't wish for them right now.

Paul

[p2u_]

Performing is out of the question. But I find it also affects the quality of my lessons, because I am tense worrying about the next memory lapse. So we hardly ever get to the musical part of playing, I am just trying to get through the pieces. Which is a pity because it's so much nicer to play with my teacher's pianos.

This aspect has been mentioned only once in this thread, probably because it speaks too much for itself to repeat it too often, but you may be a person who needs additional practice with separate hands? Both hands should be equally good; they should actually be able to do more than required when separate. Being able to play hands together a tempo does not mean you don't have to practise them separate anymore. A wrong interaction between left and right may very well account for the fact that your memory lapses occur in different places every time. The key to hands separate is not automatic drilling, but optimal mental awareness.

Paul

[charliefreak]

Maybe we/you should reconsider the need to memorize at all.  Susan Tomes (of the Florestan Trio) addresses just that topic in this article:

Clara Schumann felt that playing by heart "gave her wings power to soar", but many musicians find it so stressful that they play less naturally than they would with the score. And the pressures are much worse today than they were in Clara Schumann's day. After a century of recording, the record-buying public has been trained to expect perfection, whereas earlier audiences didn't mind if things went occasionally awry.

https://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2007/apr/20/classicalmusicandopera1

[p2u_]

Maybe we/you should reconsider the need to memorize at all.  Susan Tomes (of the Florestan Trio) addresses just that topic in this article:

guardian.co.uk/music/2007/apr/20/classicalmusicandopera1

A healthy idea, of course, but reality is such that if you want to make a career out of it, you have to go through competitions etc. I don't think the jury on an international competition will appreciate it if you come up the stage with the score...

Paul

[hfmadopter]

I see what you mean. Actually, I NEVER encourage my students to deliberately memorize anything (the result is very often inadequate under performance pressure anyway if you do that). Memorizing, if required at all by the circumstances (students within the traditional education system, for example, have no choice) should be the result of intensive practice, good work, done with joy and full concentration, experimenting, etc.

Paul

I used to memorize for my recitals, the early ones were a teacher requirement and later ones my own, just following the tradition I set for myself I guess. So lately I'm into reading more, I'm doing a Christmas eve performance and reading with a page turner ( my wife), for instance. I may do an early summer recital, I haven't done one in decades now and it would be fun and challenging at the same time. I'll assess my memorizing capabilities maybe around March and see if I've progressed any. I have access to a local church with a Baldwin Grand in it and the place has great acoustics. My aim is to play there if I do this.

To Outin: As Paul has mentioned above, it's not a requirement to memorize your work or to perform for anyone but yourself. However, if you tried both along the way you can get into a do or die state that may reward you surprisingly. In my case chemicals have worsened the memory effect but in the past the more I performed the more I could memorize out of just plain confidence. At first certainly there are memory blocks as you feel self conscious. It is possible that if you could be involved with some sort of work shop situation you will be liberated ! That's what worked for me.

[nyiregyhazi]

However strange that sounds, but you can also do that without aural feedback, because what your are listening to is your inner sound image.

Yeah, this is definitely true. You need to practise on a real piano for fine tuning, but if the quality of movement is done in a way that makes the resulting sound predictable, you can get a very good impression of what would have resulted from your movement when practising on a keyboard with the sound turned off. It's very important to have a style of movement which minimises the margin of error. What I call "negative movements" in my blog totally destroy the sense of predictability- when things buckle or give way during movement. This is what people often miss when constantly going on about the sound alone. Until you have a quality of movement that reliably produces the intended level of sound, learning how to achieve that is actually more important than listening or the internal sound image- as you can't execute what you want anyway, due to the margin of error. If that is there, you can do whatever you intend.

Related to this is keyboard topographic memory (images of black and white), which should also be unconscious during performance, but deserves very much our attention during practice. After that comes the rest as merely supplementary functions and tricks that may help you to get you back on track if something goes wrong. Analysis of the musical material, the next chord, the next phrase, for example, helps somehow, but would quickly take us off track if it were the object of conscious attention during actual performance

I do largely agree that people often have fanciful ideals about what you are supposed to be doing that don't necessarily matter in the end product. However, I do feel that it's essential to distinguish between having internalised something and simply not having done it. Sure, you don't want to think too hard about what is going on in performance, but the key is that you CAN if it becomes useful. If your body suddenly freezes, you need to be able to visualise what your hand did not feel and send out a more conscious instruction to recover, in a split second. If you are with autopilot alone, at this point the whole thing simply stops dead. Also, the analysis ought to be fundamental to the process of developing the interpretation. Some pianists have genuinely not the slightest idea as to the fact that chromatic notes are generally more expressive etc. and cannot even notice when they are passing through major/minor chords. Those with a good ear may process these things intuitively, but others may need to make it extremely conscious when setting foundations, before they can be in a position to rely mostly on the muscle memory.

Also, I'm not sure if keyboard topography side should be altogether subconscious in performance. If I'm going to a new hand position, I wouldn't necessarily think especially hard about the next one being comprised of 3 f minor notes plus a G for example. That said,  I would almost always have an internal awareness of the following melody notes as a big unit. I'd see the next few notes as one entity- not just one at a time. It's hard to categorise it as altogether conscious or unconscious, but there's something that takes it well beyond simply feeling the way to the next key and relying on the senses for the next ones. There's a visualisation of what the pattern looks like on the piano. If that were to falter, I'd often know a few notes in advance that I might be headed for trouble- which would allow me either to panic like crazy, or hopefully just make a small internal adjustment that would avert an error before it had a chance to actually happen. Sometimes, you can end up overdoing this and feel like you're figuring out how to play every note as if from scratch. It's very important to that internal correction process that actively anticipates danger, although you wouldn't want it to be coming into play very often at all.  

Part of it is just being sure that nothing can surprise you. It's interesting how surprised students are at the association of fingers, if you get them to play a unison scale slow and say every finger combination out loud. I had one the other day who hadn't even noticed that thumbs meet twice per octave in such keys as F major! Honestly, I'm amazed that anyone could even hold it together without noticing such a significant reference point- but even the less obvious are useful to have observed, so you never end up with a funny feeling that something seems a bit wrong when you're actually playing correctly. Such surprises often cause instant breakdown.

[nyiregyhazi]

I kind of do...Performing is out of the question. But I find it also affects the quality of my lessons, because I am tense worrying about the next memory lapse. So we hardly ever get to the musical part of playing, I am just trying to get through the pieces. Which is a pity because it's so much nicer to play with my teacher's pianos. My teacher wants me to "just play" but I cannot anymore because I know too well it will lead into a disaster. Even at home it annoys me a lot. I enjoy practicing and working on the learning part. But when I really get into music and get to the level of actually liking what I hear, these memory lapses tend to ruin the experience.

I'm wondering if "memory" is really the word here, then? Is it actually just physical issues of reliability? Most people are too reliant on physical habit compared to awareness, but simply understanding what to execute does not guarantee the execution. The brain would be overworked if it essential had to make a brand new calculation about how to get to the next note on every occasion. Maybe you need to think more about technical issues, rather than view it as a memory issue? The thing I spoke of at the end of the previous post is probably relevant- where you tie in a feel that goes many notes ahead to what is effectively a single physical sensation. Organising lots of notes into what is perceived as a single activity is a very good idea. Remember that each individual finger needs to act individually- but horizontal arm gestures can serve as a kind of tap on the shoulder to the next finger, that it reminds it that it's due next. If the arm is static, there is both less physical awareness of each finger and less sense of readiness for action- causing a panicked sense of having to start from nowhere. These kind of physical issues can make a huge difference on what might be perceived as memory, but what is actually largely a matter of physical reliability.

[p2u_]

Also, I'm not sure if keyboard topography side should be altogether subconscious in performance.

I may have expressed myself inadequately. What I mean is: the feel in the hand of black and white (parts of the keyboard), often without looking at the keys. I have some of my problem students practise in handposition blocks, chunks (like objects they grab) on a dumb keyboard, because the sound of the blocks/chunks would be terribly unmusical. Blocks that are too wide for the hand to grab are divided into sub-blocks. This gives tremendously positive proprioceptive feedback for later work on the piece as written. I first got that idea from the fantastic Dutch blind jazz pianist Bert van den Brink.

Paul

[nyiregyhazi]

I may have expressed myself inadequately. What I mean is: the feel in the hand of black and white (parts of the keyboard), often without looking at the keys. I have some of my problem students practise in handposition blocks, chunks (like objects they grab) on a dumb keyboard, because the sound of the blocks/chunks would be terribly unmusical. Blocks that are too wide for the hand to grab are divided into sub-blocks. This gives tremendously positive proprioceptive feedback for later work on the piece as written. I first got that idea from the fantastic Dutch blind jazz pianist Bert van den Brink.

Paul

Interesting- I use the idea of sub-blocks myself. For example even with a large hand I might think of a CEGC chord as a block from CEG that overlaps with one from EGC. That way, it doesn't lock the hand into anything, but can feel as certain and assured as if it were just one block. This becomes outright essential for even large hands, in the blocks of op. 10 no. 1. Sometimes, I'll also treat things where the thumb actually moves between two different keys as if it were just a single block. Mentally, it often provides all the certainty of a regular single position, even though the thumb itself is not static.

I think it's often good to judge blocks primarily without the thumb- so as to keep arm freedom.I find it's a good exercise to cover CDEFG  and to move the arm all over the place- forwards backwards and left and right etc. The thumb will have to come away but every other finger should never leave its key. You can get tremendous freedom this way, without ever feeling loss of security about where the fingers are automatically geared to play. When you come back, the thumb tends to find its note again of its own accord- so it's as if it was still a single secure position all along.

[outin]

I think this is a complex issue that does not have just one reason. I have a slight perception disability that makes note reading really stressful (painful really), so I have to memorize to enjoy playing. But it also affects my memory and especially my concentration skills.

I do not really fear the memory lapses so much, I have lived long enough to be able to handle the humiliation on lessons
But I am a perfectionist and a control freak, so every time I make a mistake or do something that I am not pleased with I get annoyed or start analyzing what happened and that makes my concentration and perception worse, so I cannot recover and go on. On this weeks lesson the problems started with the piano. It was slightly off tune and I got very confused when something didn't sound quite right.

Also the physical side bothers me still because I find it hard to sit straight (have a back issue). I think this stress also adds to the memory issues. My teacher is always correcting my posture and I understand it because it must be painful to watch when I let it go off. But it takes quite a bit of conscious effort not to and that's away from playing...

It bothered me less when my playing was worse. But now that I actually like the way my playing sounds and playing mostly feels fluent, I find it very annoying that I am unable to play my pieces through except for rare occasions

But many of the things suggested here are also good for the playing in general so I'll keep working on them regardless of seeing no improvement on the said issues.

[charliefreak]

A healthy idea, of course, but reality is such that if you want to make a career out of it, you have to go through competitions etc. I don't think the jury on an international competition will appreciate it if you come up the stage with the score...

Paul

Yep.  I know that the idea is not consistent with current reality.  I just thought it was nice to hear a world famous concert pianist coming out against it - with the view that attitudes can change.

Personally, I find the whole idea of a piano competition absurd.  However, I do realize that this is the path one must follow to be a star in mainstream classical music.  This alone speaks volumes about what's wrong with the classical music world.

[outin]

So it probably isn't just a memory thing. Because the last two days have been quite different. My mind has been able to handle the pieces, except for certain spots that I do know I haven't learned well enough yet. And those I have mostly been able to work through with a little extra attention to detail. I was even able to relearn a couple of my old pieces with very little effort. So what's different?

Less stress: I had two big events to plan on top of my normal workload and the last couple of months I haven't really been able to forget how much I have to do still.

More sleep: I never seem to get enough sleep, because I have never been able to adjust to early mornings. Now even with the flu I feel more rested than I have felt for a long time, because there was no need to set the alarm.

Also no work for a few days so more time to practice and I have been able to choose the time of day to practice and practice as long or as many times as I wanted.

Obviously I cannot handle such a complex activity as playing the piano when I am tired or stressed. So I shouldn't even expect to be able to play at my lessons or my weekday practice sessions, since they are after a day at work. Requiring too much from myself probably just causes more stress.

Now what would be the solution? Retirement I guess (or suddenly getting a lot of money). Can't see either in the near future, so I'd better just accept that I mostly suck 

[hfmadopter]

So it probably isn't just a memory thing. Because the last two days have been quite different. My mind has been able to handle the pieces, except for certain spots that I do know I haven't learned well enough yet. And those I have mostly been able to work through with a little extra attention to detail. I was even able to relearn a couple of my old pieces with very little effort. So what's different?

Less stress: I had two big events to plan on top of my normal workload and the last couple of months I haven't really been able to forget how much I have to do still.

More sleep: I never seem to get enough sleep, because I have never been able to adjust to early mornings. Now even with the flu I feel more rested than I have felt for a long time, because there was no need to set the alarm.

Also no work for a few days so more time to practice and I have been able to choose the time of day to practice and practice as long or as many times as I wanted.

Obviously I cannot handle such a complex activity as playing the piano when I am tired or stressed. So I shouldn't even expect to be able to play at my lessons or my weekday practice sessions, since they are after a day at work. Requiring too much from myself probably just causes more stress.

Now what would be the solution? Retirement I guess (or suddenly getting a lot of money). Can't see either in the near future, so I'd better just accept that I mostly suck 

But you don't suck, stress sucks !!!! Somehow you need to be able to shelf the stress perhaps. When I was younger i was very good at compartmentizing my days. Leave the stress at work, now is piano time etc. However, I've always been an early riser. Additionally, my work schedule was set and early, my wife worked evenings and I often cooked supper for myself and the kids. I also practiced a lot in the early evening, directly after work and abut 4 hours per day on weekends. But I just plain left work stuff at work.  I worked 45-50 hour weeks and 40 now FWIW.