Learning in limbo... Where to begin?

[JimDunlop]

Hi everyone,

I hope that some of the more experienced players on the forum may give me some insight into this -- especially if you are a piano teacher.

Recently, I've purchased a decent digital piano.  It's not my first time playing (by far) as I've been playing off & on since I was a kid.  But I would like to set some solid goals for myself and I don't know where to start.

Since I was young, I've had a special loathing for the Royal Conservatory system -- my piano teachers would always tear their hair out (and so would I).  As a result, I never made it past about grade 3.  On the other hand, I always loved playing (but only the stuff that I liked) so as a result, I developed a certain proficiency and repretoire of even moderately difficult pieces.  I've even composed a number of pieces (though writing the score was always a DAUNTING task to say the least)...  Currently, I play P/T for a church -- but the songs are usually easy enough for me to catch onto and play by ear.  (Usually there is no score available, just guitar tab so I work from that -- I'm a guitar player too).

I have always been able to pick out songs that I hear and play them by ear almost immediately.  I have a knack for chords and I know my way around a keyboard.  Unfortunately, my theory is somewhat lacking (always hated that as a kid) and my sight reading skills are quite poor too.  Although, given enough time and patience, I can hammer out many songs.... But I do mean a LONG time... :-)  I don't usually have that kind of patience.  I've learned pieces like "Maple Leaf Rag" by Scott Joplin and Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata almost entirely just by hammering away at them till I got them down.  But there's got to be a more intelligent way to start learning new pieces.

My questions are:

1.  Are there any books/websites/resources you would recommend for me?  (If it's the name of a book, please supply sufficient info so I can order it).

2.  How can I improve my sight reading skills?  My musical theory skills?

3.  If I were to get me a piano teacher, what should I tell him/her about what my skill level is?  (Getting a teacher may be a little challenging, as I live in rural Japan at the moment).

4.  What other ideas/tips/tricks/advice can you offer me?  Please ask for more info if I haven't been sufficiently clear.

5.  Are there any specific composers/pieces that someone like me could benefit learning from?  (I realize this is largely a matter of taste, but I'm open to most things).

Finally, I enjoy most music.... Especially: Gospel, Country, Classical, Jazz, and Blues.
 (I can usually improv some pretty mean Blues).. :-)


Thanks in advance, everyone...

[mound]

Welcome! I think answers to every one of your questions can be found right here on Piano Forum! Start searching around, these forums are filled with knowledgable and gracious folks.


-Paul

[JimDunlop]

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your reply -- I will try to be nice and not sound snarky.... Though it's a universally known fact that the n00b in ANY forum doesn't even get the time of day.

Perhaps you can help me out here....  I'll gladly start "searching around."   I wish I knew what keywords to input into the helpful little "Search" button at the top of the forum screen...  Then I wouldn't have to browse through 40-plus pages of posts and replies in each of the various topic areas.  Unfortunately, if I knew what I was looking for, I'd be right there doing it and not asking for help.

If no one has anything helpful to contribute, that's fine -- I can live with that.  I was only hoping that someone may have come across a question or two similar to mine and be able to point me down the right path.  I unfortunately didn't use a really catchy topic title like: "Chopin Sucks!" or anything so I don't think as many people are drawn to read this message.

Cheers,

JD

[mound]

1.  Are there any books/websites/resources you would recommend for me?  (If it's the name of a book, please supply sufficient info so I can order it).

Yes, this website, this resource.. There are hundreds of books suggested throughout the various threads.

2.  How can I improve my sight reading skills?  My musical theory skills?

Search "sight read" or "theory'

3.  If I were to get me a piano teacher, what should I tell him/her about what my skill level is?  (Getting a teacher may be a little challenging, as I live in rural Japan at the moment).

Search "find teacher"

4.  What other ideas/tips/tricks/advice can you offer me?  Please ask for more info if I haven't been sufficiently clear.

I believe there is actually a thread called tips and tricks..

5.  Are there any specific composers/pieces that someone like me could benefit learning from?  (I realize this is largely a matter of taste, but I'm open to most things).

Chopin! Bach!

Finally, I enjoy most music.... Especially: Gospel, Country, Classical, Jazz, and Blues.
 (I can usually improv some pretty mean Blues).. :-)

I'll forgive your like of Country Music 

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your reply -- I will try to be nice and not sound snarky.... Though it's a universally known fact that the n00b in ANY forum doesn't even get the time of day.

That's not true! Well, yeah, some online communities it is true..  But it's also (should be) a universally fact amoung n00bs that when you join a new forum, it's best to read alot of existing threads and search first on topics of interest.. 

Perhaps you can help me out here....  I'll gladly start "searching around."   I wish I knew what keywords to input into the helpful little "Search" button at the top of the forum

Your first post was filled with the keywords you should use!

Then I wouldn't have to browse through 40-plus pages of posts and replies in each of the various topic areas. 

Once you get a taste for the enormous wealth of great knowledge in these forums, you're going to wish you had time to read through more than 40 pages at a time 

Unfortunately, if I knew what I was looking for, I'd be right there doing it and not asking for help.

Well my friend, if you don't know what you're looking for, certainly you don't expect anybody else to?  As Bernhard (a member of these forums) so often says, "specific questions get specific answers" - and it's true!

If no one has anything helpful to contribute, that's fine -- I can live with that.

everybody here, in my experience, loves to help. But we need more specific questions, not an introductory post filled with a range of generic questions, none of which has a specific answer.. That's why folks haven't responded, it's almost like "well, where do I begin?"

We're all friendly here, take a look around for a while, there is so much you can learn!

Take care!

-Paul

[bernhard]

1.  Are there any books/websites/resources you would recommend for me?  (If it's the name of a book, please supply sufficient info so I can order it).

Yes. I listed some below. There are many more, but the more specific your question the more useful the answer will be.

2.  How can I improve my sight reading skills?  My musical theory skills?

Get Richmann’s book (“Super Sight reading secrets") and follow it. See the links below for a fuller discussion.

3.  If I were to get me a piano teacher, what should I tell him/her about what my skill level is?  (Getting a teacher may be a little challenging, as I live in rural Japan at the moment).

Do not worry about skill level. Instead make a selection of pieces (no matter how difficult or easy they maybe) that you really want to play. Take this list to your teacher and ask him/her to devise a plan that will give you the resources to play all of them. Personally I like to work on 100 pieces over a five year period. The teacher would then organise this pieces in progressive order of difficulty (so that one pieces gives the resources for the next piece), and give you any ancillary material that s/he might find helpful.

4.  What other ideas/tips/tricks/advice can you offer me?  Please ask for more info if I haven't been sufficiently clear.

He he . Read my 2190 posts

5.  Are there any specific composers/pieces that someone like me could benefit learning from?  (I realize this is largely a matter of taste, but I'm open to most things).

Just start with pieces you love. Besides those, the three works that are the foundation of everything else are J. S. Bach WTC, Betthoven’s 32 sonatas and Chopin’s etudes op. 10 & op. 25 (104 pieces altogether). Master those and you will be able to play anything.

Now for some more advice go here:


Start by reading Chang’s online book:

https://members.aol.com/cc88m/PianoBook.html

Then try these threads:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1867.msg14268.html#msg14268
(Getting technique from pieces – several important tricks: hand memory, dropping notes, repeated note-groups)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1651.msg14344.html#msg14344
(How to gain hand independence –  dropping notes)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1894.msg14707.html#msg14707
(mental practice – Glenn Gould interview)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2053.msg16886.html#msg16886
(How should an adult beginner practice? Chang and practice spot sites)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2173.msg18976.html#msg18976
(dropping notes)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2255.msg19129.html#msg19129
(practising long pieces – Bernhard’s approach – Good discussion if one should or should not listen to CDs - Slow motion practice, comparison with walking/running)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2355.msg20277.html#msg20277
(common mistakes made by students)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2429.msg21061.html#msg21061
(Technical studies x pieces – the genesis of Studies and how Czerny derived his exercises from Beethoven sonatas -  why scales are useless as technical exercises and at the same time essential – Chopin x Kalkbrenner story – Unorthodox fingering for scales).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2458.msg21365.html#msg21365
(Mental practice –  tips for fingering)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2485.msg21499.html#msg21499
(How to keep a piece in the repertory – learn/forget/relearn)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2526.msg21829.html#msg21829
(how to organise piano practise in short/medium/long term – Principle of memory retention – Principle of 15 minute sessions – stopping when you achieve your goals. Teachers should teach how to learn)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2599.msg22431.html#msg22431
(How long does it all take? – several interesting posts here: self-taught students, cake analogy, criticismof ABRSM for expecting people to reach grade 8 in 10 years,  learning is not gradual, different ways of learning, and the dispersive method of teaching).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2615.msg22522.html#msg22522
(Piece analysis – delay going to the piano and spend most time analysing – Comparison with the process of film making)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2720.msg23353.html#msg23353
(How to practice aim and accuracy – looking at the LH and giving verbal instructions to the RH – Full discussion on left and right brain).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2802.msg24467.html#msg24467
(When to join hands)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2153.msg18525.html#msg18525
(Fingering for chromatic scales)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2313.msg19807.html#msg19807
(Speed of scales – the important factors in speed playing and an alternative fingering for scales).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2533.msg21955.html#msg21955
(structured plan to learn scales and arpeggios – includes description of repeated note-groups and other practice tricks)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg22756.html#msg22756
(Bernhard provides the complete unorthodox fingering for all major and minor scales plus an explanation)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2701.msg23134.html#msg23134
(Teaching scales – the cluster method and why one should start with B major).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2758.msg23889.html#msg23889
(scales & compositions – the real importance of scales is to develop the concept of key, not exercise)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/board,4/topic,4880.3.html#msg46319
(how to acquire technique and what technique actually is)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1918.msg15015.html#msg15015
(Thumb under/over – detailed explanation – Fosberry flop)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2024.msg16583.html#msg16583
(how to aim the pinky – using the arm to move the fingers)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2033.msg16635.html#msg16635
(finger strength)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2076.msg17157.html#msg17157
(Speed – the3 most important factors)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2079.msg17335.html#msg17335
(Hand tension – not using fingers to play)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2106.msg17587.html#msg17587
(developing both hands equally – repertory and why the LH is generally weaker – website for left handed pianos)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2230.msg20686.html#msg20686
(Octaves and fast octaves – excellent post by Robert Henry)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2502.msg21594.html#msg21594
(Independence of the 3rd and 4thfinger –  it is impossible: one should work towards the illusion of independence: it is all arm work)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2507.msg21688.html#msg21688
(Round fingers – the role of fingers)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2552.msg22037.html#msg22037
(Accuracy – repeated note-groups, explained here in detail)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2581.msg22252.html#msg22252
(Question on piano height, octave playing, wrist movement, etc. – Anda gives some good suggestions).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1808.msg23879.html#msg23879
(Ultra fast arpeggios – slow practice x slow motion practice – excellent post by Herve – Abby Whiteside is also mentioned)


https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1871.msg14384.html#msg14384
(Reading notation – Richmann’s book – Cambridge word scramble example)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1976.msg15962.html#msg15962
(Sight reading – Richmann’s book)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2406.msg20820.html#msg20820
(the grand staff)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2577.msg22247.html#msg22247
(Keyboard topography – how to find notes by touch)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2713.msg23282.html#msg23282
(Teaching bass clef – explanation for the grand staff)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2751.msg23710.html#msg23710
(detailed explanation of the sight-reading process)

Just the tip of the iceberg.

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[mound]

oh my god. there goes my day 

[JimDunlop]

Wow!  Thanks to you both.  That's pretty much spot-on in terms of what I was looking for.  I'll start sifting through this stuff.

Special thanks to Bernhard for the book reference.  I'll see what I can do about ordering it (hopefully not too expensive getting it here to the heart of Japan)...

Mound:  It's awkward sometimes, getting into a Mexican Standoff with a n00b staring at the veteran, asking: "Where do I begin?" while the veteran is staring back saying, "Where do I begin?"  I know the feeling, probably from both sides of the fence.  But once again, thats heaps for the starting point -- it really does help because I don't know any piano players where I live (we are fairly isolated from other foreigners here) and I would ask someone at work (I teach English at a Junior High School) but asking such questions to the school music teacher would be inappropriate (and complicated).

Bernhard: you seem to have a certain appreciation of things Japanese... Tell me, do you have a favorite Japanese composer?  If you do, let me know... 

Again, some may wish to beat me with a piano stool for saying this, but I've been learning a really nice J-pop song (Sakura by Moriyama Naotaro).  It's got a funky piano accompaniment that can be beautifully adapted to be a piano solo.... And it just happened to be in my favorite key: G#maj. :-)

Cheers,

JD

[mound]

Mound:  It's awkward sometimes, getting into a Mexican Standoff with a n00b staring at the veteran, asking: "Where do I begin?" while the veteran is staring back saying, "Where do I begin?"  I know the feeling, probably from both sides of the fence.  But once again, thats heaps for the starting point

haha.. I'm hardly a veteren, I've only been reading these forums for a couple months now.. I got sucked in very quickly once I started reading Bernhards posts and after about a month of spending way too much time reading his (and others') posts I started asking questions and applying the techniques.

-- it really does help because I don't know any piano players where I live (we are fairly isolated from other foreigners here) and I would ask someone at work (I teach English at a Junior High School) but asking such questions to the school music teacher would be inappropriate (and complicated).

The only real-life piano player I have a chance to talk to face to face is my teacher.

Cheers,

JD

Right back at 'ya!

-Paul