Should I push/encourage my daughter?

[keymoo]

Hi

I don't post here very often, but I have a dilemma I would love some input on. A bit about me: I live in UK and have a 13 yo home-educated daughter who has had piano lessons since age 5. I myself had lessons at school age 13-15 and reached Grade 4 ABRSM standard. I have recently had lessons and am probably around grade 5/6 standard now and I love to play Mozart Sonatas, Chopin Nocturnes, Einaudi and some Mendelssohn and am tackling Beethoven Bagatelles.

I believe my daughter is talented musically (don't all parents!), she has her own acoustic drum kit, a nice Fender guitar and a top or the range Yamaha Clavinova at home  (for the family to share). We got rid of our Yahama U3 a few years ago when we moved house to go travelling for 2.5 years, during which time neither myself or my daughter had any piano lessons or much practise. We got back from travelling in March 2011. Anyway... the U3 is back on my shopping list!

She has recently passed Grade 1 piano and Grade 1 theory with Merit. About 12 months ago in light of the fact that my daughter is home educated I asked her teacher to increase the pace of her learning and asked for 2 30 min lessons per week instead of the 1. Daughter was happy about this. I have asked her if she thinks learning three instruments is too much and she says no and wants to keep going with all of them. She has a 1 hour drum lesson every two weeks and an hour guitar lesson every two weeks (alternating weekly). However, I am frustrated in the pace of her learning. The teacher seems to be dragging out her learning of piano and despite my daughter having lessons since age 5 has not made a lot of progress, in my opinion. But she does have a desire to learn more interesting pieces and has started to try and learn some Rachmaninov off her own back, Mozart's Rondo alla Turca and others.

So, my question, sorry for the rambling nature of the post, is am I being unreasonable in expecting faster "Grades" progress from my daughter? Her teacher has recently recommended that she changes her lessons from two 30min lessons to 1 hourly lesson per week, even though my gut feel was not to change it. Her teacher said it would be easier to fit more in, but I have since learnt that they spend 15-20 minutes per lesson just chatting about her home life and not getting on with the music. She is also spending a significant amount of time on music theory and not practise.

If any piano teachers are reading this, and you were asked to put together a plan to teach piano at a fast pace which remained fun for the student, would you just laugh? Is it possible, desirable? My feeling is that as my daughter is home-educated and has natural musical ability (she LOVES all kinds of music) and she should be pushed and encouraged to make the most of her abilities and it would be a shame to squander it. My fear though is that if I push her, it will stop being "fun" and put her off it. I do recognise that some of the failings are our fault (parents) because we have neglected to remind her to practise. This is something we intend to change however, but we are not naturally over-bearing parents and would rather the motivation to play piano was intrinsic rather than extrinsic.

Would appreciate any thoughts...

[hfmadopter]

If I'm reading your message correctly ( I could be doing just that), it seems to me that the first order of business is to make sure your daughter is practicing. Check that out, then move on to also see that she has good practice sense and uses her time to her best advantage. It's useless to work on more time in or scheduling with the teacher ( not to mention paying the teacher) if this fundamental part of the process is not in place. If your child is not practicing enough then each lesson becomes a rehash of the prior week and or practice session of it's own. You don't need to pay her teacher for practice sessions, the idea is to gain new knowledge with the teacher and to then go home and work on that.

Excuse me if I've taken your message incorrectly !

[coldness]

I'm not sure if it's correct, but are you saying your daughter only managed grade 1 after 7-8 years of practicing and paying a teacher?

[keypeg]

If your daughter is homeschooled and has had lessons since the age of 5, were those 8 years with a private teacher, or were you her teacher for some of that time.  Were these regular studies?  Grade 1 after 8 years does seem strange.  Some information seems missing.  What is your idea of progress?  Is it only along the grade system, or anything else?

[ajspiano]

I have a fundamental concern with measuring a child's progress in grades.. I feel it's practically meaningless.  Your situation demonstrates this well since your daughter can supposedly manage much harder material (you said rachmaninoff)  without direct help.

How long have you been takin lessons with the teacher. It sound more like the teacher is trying to ensure ground work has been covered than is trying to hold your daughter back. I would suggest you talk to the teacher about what she's doing by herself and ask why the teacher wants to so the lower grade repertoire.

An hour sounds better than 2 half hours to me here. - and will certainly be more appropriate as the repertoire gets harder. (sounds as though she will shoot through a bunch of grades which she should do at her own pace but that pace will probably be quite quick)

[keymoo]

Thanks for the replies, I've responded to all below.

If I'm reading your message correctly ( I could be doing just that), it seems to me that the first order of business is to make sure your daughter is practicing. Check that out, then move on to also see that she has good practice sense and uses her time to her best advantage. It's useless to work on more time in or scheduling with the teacher ( not to mention paying the teacher) if this fundamental part of the process is not in place. If your child is not practicing enough then each lesson becomes a rehash of the prior week and or practice session of it's own. You don't need to pay her teacher for practice sessions, the idea is to gain new knowledge with the teacher and to then go home and work on that.

Excuse me if I've taken your message incorrectly !

I agree she is not practising enough. How to make sure she is practising though without being too authoritarian? I have a friend that was forced to play the piano for 30 minutes every day as a child and she hated it. When she reached adulthood she never played the piano again. I don't this will happen with my daughter but I would like to take a soft approach. Any ideas here would be welcome.

I'm not sure if it's correct, but are you saying your daughter only managed grade 1 after 7-8 years of practicing and paying a teacher?

She started off with the Me and My Piano books which took a long time to complete. We weren't really into "Grades" when she was young so we didn't push it. I do think now though, that they may give a sense of achievement and spur her on to achieve more. I could be wrong on this, and I'm not an expert as you can tell.

If your daughter is homeschooled and has had lessons since the age of 5, were those 8 years with a private teacher, or were you her teacher for some of that time.  Were these regular studies?  Grade 1 after 8 years does seem strange.  Some information seems missing.  What is your idea of progress?  Is it only along the grade system, or anything else?

She has had the same teacher the whole time. Taking Grades was only decided in March 2011, so maybe I'm expecting too much. However she does need to practise more.

An hour sounds better than 2 half hours to me here. - and will certainly be more appropriate as the repertoire gets harder. (sounds as though she will shoot through a bunch of grades which she should do at her own pace but that pace will probably be quite quick)

The grades pace will only be quick if the teacher lets it be quick. We waited three months for the new Grade 2 books to come out for example. In that time she did theory and other pieces.

[nyiregyhazi]

The grades pace will only be quick if the teacher lets it be quick. We waited three months for the new Grade 2 books to come out for example. In that time she did theory and other pieces.

I don't think it's a matter of "letting" it (or not, as you imply) be quick. Either it's naturally going to be quick or it isn't. Right now, I have a student who has done grade 2 this term in his 2nd term of lessons. He has also started the Grade 3 pieces and achieved some good things without my even having started to work with him at them and will certainly be ready to take the exam next term. I'm certainly not suggesting that one exam per term is normal- and should stress that he is both very talented and with a head-start (due to being at a good level in other instruments before he started). Unless for some bizarre reason I chose to actively hinder his progress with bad advice, I couldn't have done a thing to stop him from being quick. It's just been a natural progression.

Speed of progress is not something that you either allow or can necessarily force. Students who are in a position to move fast tend to do so with relatively little intervention.  When students don't, sometimes the right pushing or approach can make the difference but it's not guaranteed. A teacher can't just decide that now it's time to up the rate. They have to show exactly how fast learning can be achieved and the student has to be in tune with them (and practising) in a way that enables that to happen. After such a long time with one teacher, I'd consider looking at an alternative teacher. I wouldn't wish to either leap to the assumption that your daughter is just slow or that the teacher is doing a bad job- but after such a long period a single grade is not good. It doesn't sound like things are progressing as they should be. She may be better off with new approaches- as I'd have to suspect that the teacher can't have been making much effort over most of the years. The point is that you can't suddenly force fast progress right now, but have to find the natural level of learning that is possible. A new teacher may be the answer to finding what is right.

[keypeg]

Keymoo, what I 'm reading is that you see progress in terms of grades.  Real progress involves various skills.  If she was taught all these years by you, then her present teacher may be giving her different foundations and the grade level of the books he is using doesn't indicate what he is actually doing.  When giving skills you want the repertoire to be simpler so that the student can concentrate on that part of it.  Have you talked to her teacher and discussed goals, starting with you hearing what the teacher has to say?  If she started with this teacher in 2011 then that is maybe 1 1/2 years, not 8 years (with that teacher).

Has your daughter told you or her teacher of her goals, her difficulties, etc?  Is she being guided in things such as practicing, and is she communicating with her teacher?

[nyiregyhazi]

Keymoo, what I 'm reading is that you see progress in terms of grades.  Real progress involves various skills.  If she was taught all these years by you, then her present teacher may be giving her different foundations and the grade level of the books he is using doesn't indicate what he is actually doing.  When giving skills you want the repertoire to be simpler so that the student can concentrate on that part of it.  Have you talked to her teacher and discussed goals, starting with you hearing what the teacher has to say?  If she started with this teacher in 2011 then that is maybe 1 1/2 years, not 8 years (with that teacher).

Has your daughter told you or her teacher of her goals, her difficulties, etc?  Is she being guided in things such as practicing, and is she communicating with her teacher?

? She specifically said she has had the same teacher all the time, in her last post. Nowhere did it say that the teacher started in 2011. Progress is not all about grades, but there's something seriously wrong if it takes 8 year for a single grade. To be honest, I think she should definitely try a new teacher. Grades are not necessarily the ultimate measure of progress- but a student who is not in a position of being capable to do them is not progressing, however you look at it. 1 Grade for 8 years is not good progress.

[keypeg]

Ah, I see it:

She started off with the Me and My Piano books

I thought that meant that she started of with the OP and his/her piano books.  So there is a series that is called Me and My Piano?

[tdawe]

I totally agree that grades are not a good way to measure skill and progress. That said, I think that after 8 years of paying for expensive 1 on 1 tuition, only having completed Grade 1 is very concerning. I would do away with that teacher immediately, because that seems like daylight robbery.

I think some pressure is good. Children need structure and discipline and find it hard to motivate themselves. As a child I was always musical, but I was unruly and my parents did not want to pressure me and force me to practice, and I now regret it extremely. Now I practice obsessively to make up for lost time but I am somewhat haunted by the concept of wasted potential. For what it is worth, I am an 18 years old Music student, at University with piano as my main instrument, and I have been playing just over 1 year now.

[nj61]

I don't think 3 instruments at once is necessarily too much, but if she is not keen on practising then it probably is.  Why not ask her to choose what she would like to focus on, then you can encourage her practising without worrying about it being overburdensome.

I think a lot of adults don't like the memory of being made to practice, but this is often because it seemed like our parents wanted us to learn a skill for some reason other than our own benefit.  if you can model daily practising, and encourage practice of a few scales and a current piece everyday, then it will make more sense and seem less arbitrary. 

If I was paying for lessons I would insist on at elast some practice.  There are always periods when kids are more interested in other things, but unless its mkaing them utterly miserable I think its worth pushing to get in the habit.  If its not hell/a battleground then she will appreciate it later on.  At grade 1ish half an hour a day might not be necessary, why not start with 15 mins a day, and say she can do something fun eg computer game afterwards.

I would be serously tempted to get her to choose between piano and guitar for now.  She can keep up guitar for fun by herself learning chords etc, but piano lessons will give a good grounding in music theory etc.  Also think there should be more communicaitn with the teacher, if its taken 8 years to get to grade 1, you should be aware of the reason why.