Beethoven Tempest Sonata Mvt.1 advice

[cstliu]

Hello, I am having difficulty in playing bar 99-118 with my right hand very stiffed when in bar 104 especially. I really need an advice on that on what kind of exercise (maybe?) can help me in enhancing my finger works. Currently I am playing hanon fingering exercise daily. I am not sure if its the problem of hand position or what, just cannot get it right at tempo 132. anyone can help?? Thanks!!!

[apeskanov]

First, I would choose comfortable fingering for the right hand in measure 104. I am using the following fingering:
1-2 for F#-A and 4th for C#

Then I would start practicing R.H. alone with flexing down the wrist every two beats (down on the first; up on the second; down again on the third and up again on the fourth). The same wrist motion will occur in the left hand as well. Initially, try to work in tempo somewhere around quarter=48. This would enable you to release the tension and gradually increase the speed. I would recommend to review my Piano Olympics materials,  "The Russian Technical Regimen for the Piano" and set of 3 DVDs "In Search of Sound."

[maestroxviiofno]

I performed that Sonata and remember my teacher telling me that the faster you want to play, the lighter your fingers need to be...   Treat it like a trill but just hang on to the rhythm.... Everything apeskanov said sounds right to me.         PS...  The 3rd movement is EXTRA FUN to play,  the 2nd movement is musically as difficult as politicians not spinning.    Good luck!

[cstliu]

Yes piano Master Peskanov for your advice :-) however when playing way down to measures 115-118, fingers are not obeying and thumb sounds quite disturbing. I could master bar 99-102 but when index or third finger not playing together with the thumb it is getting out of control. May you advice me how should I train my fingers to get it all right?

[apeskanov]

It seems to me that you are tensing up when playing with your thumb. You are supposed to relax, when using your thumb on the strong beats (1st & 3rd) of each measure.  It is useful to practice in stages for any triplets in the development section, measures 103-122.  

Stage I
I would practice RH alone, dropping my wrist every 3 eighth notes, counting every eighth (1-2-3 1-2-3…), where  eighth=66. I would also try to use some exercises. For instance: for measure 115:
1) Playing G-B-G B-G-B G-B-G B-G-B using 1-2-1 2-1-2 1-2-1 2-1-2
2) Playing G-D-G D-G-D G-D-G D-G-D using 1-4-1 4-1-4 1-4-1 4-1-4
Your objective is to match the sound between different fingers and find the most comfortable position for your hand and fingers on the keys.
When you feel more comfortable and you are satisfied with your sound, practice the same measure the way it's written. Then use the same exercise for other trouble spots.

Stage II
Still practicing RH alone, gradually increasing the tempo and flexing your wrist every 6 notes. Make sure that you are relaxed and able to control your sound.

Stage III
Practicing hands together, starting in slower tempo, flexing every 3 notes in the right hand, and then in faster tempos flexing every 6 notes.

I hope this would help you to overcome the technical challenges. Good Luck!  

https://peskanov.musicteachershelper.com/home

 

[birba]

I don't know.  This flexing of the wrist sounds very strange to me.  To me, it's a rotation of the wrist with a very active flexor of the 3rd 4th and 5th fingers.  In slow tempo, exaggerate this articulation on the 2nd and 4th beat with a sort of flapping of that flexor.
Maybe if M° Peskanov could illustrate in a video, like I used to do, we could get an idea of what he means.

[austinarg]

I don't know.  This flexing of the wrist sounds very strange to me.  To me, it's a rotation of the wrist with a very active flexor of the 3rd 4th and 5th fingers.  In slow tempo, exaggerate this articulation on the 2nd and 4th beat with a sort of flapping of that flexor.
Maybe if M° Peskanov could illustrate in a video, like I used to do, we could get an idea of what he means.

Forget it, you have to buy his book 

[maestroxviiofno]

As far as dealing with thumb tension;  What I had to do was ALWAYS check to see if the tip of my thumb was flexed outward (like you are trying to hitchhike across the keys) --for every piece I played.       It takes monstrous effort to learn how to keep the muscle that connects thumb to rest of hand completely relaxed.    Good luck!!!

[j_menz]

I don't know.  This flexing of the wrist sounds very strange to me.  To me, it's a rotation of the wrist with a very active flexor of the 3rd 4th and 5th fingers.  In slow tempo, exaggerate this articulation on the 2nd and 4th beat with a sort of flapping of that flexor.
Maybe if M° Peskanov could illustrate in a video, like I used to do, we could get an idea of what he means.

I agree. The flexing of the wrist strikes me as a highly inefficient movement and also likely to make it difficult to control the sound.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding what is meant?

[the89thkey]

If you need fingerings for Tempest you probably aren't ready to play it.

[apeskanov]

Searching for advice on better fingering has no correlation to whether a pianist is ready to play a piece. It's just the opposite. The well trained musicians are always eager to browse through different editions of the same work and find different solutions. When someone is asking for assistance on how to overcome certain challenges, we ought to provide the words of encouragement and good advice, if we have one.

[nyiregyhazi]

As far as dealing with thumb tension;  What I had to do was ALWAYS check to see if the tip of my thumb was flexed outward (like you are trying to hitchhike across the keys) --for every piece I played.       It takes monstrous effort to learn how to keep the muscle that connects thumb to rest of hand completely relaxed.    Good luck!!!

Personally, I'd say that the reason it's so hard is because the idea that "relaxed" is the thing to strive for, is an illusion. If I feel a very small activity that actively strives to lengthen out and point the thumb down. Instead of "relaxed" (which usually leaves it tensing up to try to get stability) you introduce a small productive activity and replace the concept of "relaxed" with the concept of comfort. It takes a miniscule effort, but completely eliminates the instability that occurs if you allow the thumb to start rising up and pointing outwards. When the thumb tries to merely relax, it will almost always want to resort to such movement.

[nyiregyhazi]

It seems to me that you are tensing up when playing with your thumb. You are supposed to relax, when using your thumb on the strong beats (1st & 3rd) of each measure.  It is useful to practice in stages for any triplets in the development section, measures 103-122.  
 

If the thumb literally relaxes, it will double back and squash in towards the second finger. This both reduces the efficiency of energy transferred and introduces unpredictability into the results. If taken literally, the knuckle would actually fall on top of the thumb after the note sounded, or into a cluster of keys. It can be objectively stated that if you simply try to relax it NEVER truly happens- unless that cluster occurs. This means that striving to be relaxed merely leaves it to chance how you organise the muscular actions that prevent you falling down. Why leave something so important to chance and unguided instincts? Why not concentrate on what activities are the most efficient ones to deliberately involve- hence saving yourself effort? Often, trying to relax tends to trigger an instinct that involves basically seizing up the thumb and whole hand in a bid to resist such a collapse- which is about the most disorganised and strenuous option of all.

If you use these style of exercises to trigger active movements from the thumb:

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/action-and-reaction-in-practise-part-i.html

you will be actively opening the space between thumb and second. This means that you no longer have any reason to tense up against the problems of the relaxed collapse- because you're simply moving directly in the opposite direction, which renders any sagging impossible. Personally, I had to go through a lot of very conscious work on these actions, before intending to "relax" my thumb could even begin to become functional or remotely comfortable. Striving to relax merely perpetuated the general stiffening that was needed to save me from collapsing into a cluster. Only if striving for relaxation triggers a feel for the productive movement can it help. When it doesn't, it's far easier to learn the necessary actions in a deliberate manner, than it is to keep blindly striving for relaxation without understanding what is needed.

[the89thkey]

Searching for advice on better fingering has no correlation to whether a pianist is ready to play a piece. It's just the opposite. The well trained musicians are always eager to browse through different editions of the same work and find different solutions. When someone is asking for assistance on how to overcome certain challenges, we ought to provide the words of encouragement and good advice, if we have one.

There is a difference between looking for advice on Rach 3 finale fingerings and Beethoven Tempest.

[nyiregyhazi]

There is a difference between looking for advice on Rach 3 finale fingerings and Beethoven Tempest.

Not at all. I think you ought to look through some Schnabel editions, as you'd probably find that there's a truly considerable amount to learn from them.

Incidentally, personally I alternate between 1 and 2 on the lower notes for these. In a way it's more "difficult "  but in another way it makes it far easier not to get stuck in a tight position.

[the89thkey]

Why not use the fingerings in the score? If it doesn't have them, ask your teacher. If your teacher doesn't know, then maybe I'll look at it for you.