Problem With My Teacher's Ever-Changing Moods.

[justsheila7]

Hello. So I recently came back from a lesson. A very dull lesson that is.

My teacher kept yawning  ! I don't know if she can help it or not, but this has been happening a lot recently. Some days she would be energetic and ready to teach, and others...well blah. Perhaps I should sympathize because she's deprived of sleep or something, but I don't know what to do anymore. I feel kind of silly complaining about a natural process.  But hey, I'm not really fond of sitting through this either.Of course, I hate coming back from a lesson feeling as if I've accomplished absolutely nothing from it. And this happens much too often. 

And regarding other things, she's lately been explaining theory homework in a way that I have no idea what she means. Here and there, I can get a couple of things down, but for the majority, I don't know what she means. I do tell her this and progress my questions further, but she basically just says everything 10 times more slowly assuming that I'd understand it better. This doesn't exactly work though.

At this point, I don't know what to do. Should I keep going with her (she's been my teacher for around 6 months now)? She's a great teacher when she's in a good mood so I don't know about this. or should I tell her how this is making me feel? I can't really picture myself saying something along the lines of "Heyy..so uh, I don't really appreciate you yawning every five minutes into my  lesson. So uh, if you can hold back that yawn, it would be great. " Awkward.     Hmmm, so any advice here? All replies are appreciated. 

[sroka]

I would wait until she did another yawn and then slowly confronted her about it.  Be like, are you tired?  Or you sleepy? And if she says "oh it's just today" or make some common cover answer, confront her again the next lesson she does it in and tell her "you've been very tired at the lessons and ask what's wrong?" 

That's my best advice because you really do need an active teacher that keeps her mind on the music and not somewhere else.

[lostinidlewonder]

Give your teacher constant feed back don't be afraid. If she asks you to do something or explains something and its not helping tell her immediately that its not helping or at least you cannot understand it and need elaboration. She may wave it off and continue but then again bring up the issue again as soon as you are confused again. Teachers need this feedback from their students, they don't want you to just be quiet and do what you are asked to do (some bad teachers are like that though). If you don't get it don't use the excuse "it will come in time", you need to get most of it now and polish it over time. If that is the excuse she is giving you run away and find a better teacher.

I find yawning is rude and a teacher shouldn't do it obviously in front of students (the same goes for students yawning, I tell them off if they do it!) I would say to your teacher in a friendly manner and a smile "Are you bored?!". She needs to be more mentally engaged in teaching you, I am never tired if I am concentrating with the student, I do tend to get bored if we have to repeat certain things over and over and over again because the student didn't practice and I may yawn during a late night class.

[p2u_]

I find yawning is rude and a teacher shouldn't do it obviously in front of students (the same goes for students yawning, I tell them off if they do it!) I would say to your teacher in a friendly manner and a smile "Are you bored?!". She needs to be more mentally engaged in teaching you, I am never tired if I am concentrating with the student, I do tend to get bored if we have to repeat certain things over and over and over again because the student didn't practice and I may yawn during a late night class.

I think we should be very, very careful with our judgment about people yawning. You may be surprised, but it is often NOT a sign that the person is bored. It merely indicates the lack of oxygen in the blood which the individual is trying to boost by sucking up air through his/her mouth. There may be a lack of oxygen in the room.

Yawning is also the way we COUNTER sleep, so it's actually an attempt to stay with the lesson, which should be praised, rather than punished.

It can also be a sign that the person feels physically or psychologically uncomfortable, so instead of telling him or her off, I try to break the ice by launching a joke or two. Just saying.

Paul

[lostinidlewonder]

If a young student openly yawns loudly during a lesson I call them up on it because it is bad etiquette and they should not be taught that it is ok to do it. I guess I am old fashioned in that manner. I also remind them that I am aware of the time if they constantly look at their watch to see how much time is left in the lesson, that's so annoying lol.

[p2u_]

If a young student openly yawns loudly during a lesson I call them up on it because it is bad etiquette and they should not be taught that it is ok to do it. I guess I am old fashioned in that manner. I also remind them that I am aware of the time if they constantly look at their watch to see how much time is left in the lesson, that's so annoying lol.

The constant clock-watching, yes, that's irritating. Your reaction to yawning is something you may want to reconsider. I remember the sitatuation at school in Holland when we had French lessons at 3 P.M. The teacher, who was a Frenchman, loved to eat garlic with virtually anything. Besides, he obviously didn't realize himself what odor it leaves in the air. Since he did not ventilate the classroom at all, you needed a gasmask to survive during the sixth class. The result: everybody yawned and yawned. Since yawning itself is contagious, he even couldn't resist himself, but still told others off for doing it because it was ... you know... "bad etiquette"... Also, for him it probably indicated that we didn't like learning French. We were so small, we didn't even dare ask if he could please, please, open a window...

Paul

[keypeg]

And regarding other things, she's lately been explaining theory homework in a way that I have no idea what she means. Here and there, I can get a couple of things down, but for the majority, I don't know what she means. I do tell her this and progress my questions further, but she basically just says everything 10 times more slowly assuming that I'd understand it better. This doesn't exactly work though.

Can you give an example of such homework, your questions, and her explanations?

For the rest, besides her changing states of alertness, are you learning and progressing through your interactions with your teacher, the assignments she gives, and the manner that she gives the assignments.  If you are having problems as you practice, does she pick up on problems in your next lesson as you play and guide you with them.  How is what you are learning in general?

This thread may also be something for teachers to consider.  Your response to students as they play matters to the students.  Especially an older student hopes that you are interested, and if they see signs of disinterest that can be very discouraging.  If you are turned off by how your student has practiced and you say nothing, then the student will pick up the body language and will simply be confused by it. 

[mahlermaniac]

Yawning is a natural physiologic reaction that may be difficult to control and does not inherently indicate boredom. I yawn not infrequently when I see my last couple patients of the day. I feel badly about it and I do apologize. Fact of the matter is I have a toddler and a baby, neither of which sleep through the night with any regularity so I am constantly tired. Doesn't mean I am bored by them (I always apologize) and it doesn't mean I don't do my job properly.

That said, if she is not instructing well that is another matter entirely, and I would consider talking to her about it. Tell her that explaining more slowly is not effective and that she needs to consider a new approach.

[keypeg]

Tell her that explaining more slowly is not effective and that she needs to consider a new approach.

That's a sure way of getting resentment.  Noone in a profession wants to be told how to do their job, especially a teacher with a student.

[cmg]

That's a sure way of getting resentment.  Noone in a profession wants to be told how to do their job, especially a teacher with a student.

Well, that kind of depends on how defensive the professional is.  Patients are always giving me feedback on how psychoanalytic sessions are going for them, how helpful or not helpful I am being.  I appreciate it, because it enables me to fine tune my approach and give them what they need.  It's not easy to let down your "ego" this way, but, everyone -- including me -- benefits from it.

I'd politely address these issues with the teacher.  If she reacts badly, defensively, then I'd find a new teacher.

[mahlermaniac]

That's a sure way of getting resentment.  Noone in a profession wants to be told how to do their job, especially a teacher with a student.

Any person in a job requires feedback from others to ensure that their methods are effective to their students/clients/patients. This is why many jobs have regular performance reviews. This is why there are satisfaction surveys. To improve. I take my patients recommendations into consideration; this helps make me a better physician assistant. Feedback will make better teachers. Yes, it can be difficult to hear, but if told in a careful, respectful way it is not a bad thing. I would question the quality of a teacher who thinks they are above reproach. This student is clearly not benefitting from her instruction, therefore the only options are to either leave or discuss this with her.

[keypeg]

If you tell a teacher that the way she is presenting things doesn't work, then it gets into her teaching methodology which you as a student don't have expertise in.  If you tell the teacher that you cannot follow what she is saying, then the problem is either in the way you are following (which can lead to guidance), or in how she is teaching (which also affects your following).  At that point a good teacher will look at other ways of reaching you.  But someone who is poor in teaching, even if she understands the material itself, won't change anything.  At the point where you go into their teaching method, many feel you have crossed the line.

I ran into things the first time I took lessons and then stopped having lessons.  At that point I discussed this a lot with a few teachers and it is tricky.  They get students telling them how they should teach and what they should teach, and they also get students who are selective about following instruction and then criticize the teaching.  But if a decent teacher is told that the student doesn't understand, then that teacher will try other approaches.  That part they definitely want to hear.

[j_menz]

If you tell a teacher that the way she is presenting things doesn't work, then it gets into her teaching methodology which you as a student don't have expertise in.  

If the way something is being taught is not helping you learn it, you have all the "expertise" in the teaching methodology you need.

The job of a teacher, and what you are paying them for, is to help you learn. It is not to go about their own way of teaching without reference to that aim. 

[lostinidlewonder]

If you tell a teacher that the way she is presenting things doesn't work, then it gets into her teaching methodology which you as a student don't have expertise in.  If you tell the teacher that you cannot follow what she is saying, then the problem is either in the way you are following (which can lead to guidance), or in how she is teaching (which also affects your following).  At that point a good teacher will look at other ways of reaching you....

I still get told by beginners now and then that what I am saying doesn't make sense or is too complicated (even if I am teaching in an appropriate way for most). I really appreciate the honesty of these students and always encourage students to speak up if they don't understand so I can make adjustments, simplify reasoning or repeat and highlight. On the other hand I have students who are very quiet and never speak up if they don't understand, I constantly need to prod them for feedback and provide them with courage to speak up if they don't understand. It is unfortunately a bad habit taught in group classrooms, that is to not to put your hand up when you are confused when the teacher is teaching (you get looks from your fellow students, you are considered interrupting the lesson etc). But with one on one lessons the discussion needs to be open, anytime something bothers the student they should speak up.

It is always the teachers fault if the student misunderstands, at least that is how I see it. A good tutor understands the individual they are teaching and how they learn and absorb knowledge, we should know before we teach something if the student will successfully understand it (that is if we have taught the student for a little while).

I like students who tell me that what I am doing is not working or unclear, it gives me a challenge to make sure that I can make them understand. Teaching is not solely a teacher transferring knowledge but a teacher transfers knowledge through the entry of the students own mind. A teacher needs to understand their students mind if they ever hope to transfer any knowledge and this requires that the student reveals all of their difficulties and confusion when they arise. No one can teach everyone the same way, we learn to adapt depending upon the students individual needs and this is especially true outside of the group classroom.

[nyiregyhazi]

If a young student openly yawns loudly during a lesson I call them up on it because it is bad etiquette and they should not be taught that it is ok to do it. I guess I am old fashioned in that manner. I also remind them that I am aware of the time if they constantly look at their watch to see how much time is left in the lesson, that's so annoying lol.

Piano teachers should teach etiquette? Where do you draw the line? Should we also lecture them on morality? It's down to a child's parents to train them in such issues, not any business of mine. If someone clearly tends not to listen, obviously there's reason to deal with that- as it interferes with whether they are going to learn anything. However, I don't personally believe that etiquette is a piano teacher's business.

[nyiregyhazi]

If you tell a teacher that the way she is presenting things doesn't work, then it gets into her teaching methodology which you as a student don't have expertise in.  If you tell the teacher that you cannot follow what she is saying, then the problem is either in the way you are following (which can lead to guidance), or in how she is teaching (which also affects your following).  At that point a good teacher will look at other ways of reaching you.  But someone who is poor in teaching, even if she understands the material itself, won't change anything.  At the point where you go into their teaching method, many feel you have crossed the line.

Based on her description, it may not achieve anything. If she's already said that she doesn't understand the concept and the teacher repeats the same thing more slowly (rather than reframe it) I'm not sure if pointing out that it isn't working will help. One option to consider is getting a separate teacher for theory- if she's happy with her teacher on the pianistic side but struggling with the theory. There are some specialist theory teachers who may be a lot better at giving different angles on the same thing. Good theory teachers have a lot of tricks beneath the surface, that make it easy to understand things- whereas others merely have a single way of looking at the surface.

[lostinidlewonder]

Piano teachers should teach etiquette? Where do you draw the line? Should we also lecture them on morality?

Why are you even quoting me on this? Seriously you must be quite a boring teacher if you do nothing else but teach piano.

A teacher of young children does not only need to teach the subject matter at hand and teaching manners is important for young minds, they need to learn from people older than themselves and if you have children you will realize that some of them actually listen to advice from people who are NOT family quite closely (the amount of times I've had parents ask me to tell their children to do this and that which is not piano related) . In fact your job is a lot more than that, even with adults who reveal difficulties in their life do I say, "Oh shut up I don't want to hear about your life, lets only talk about piano!"

[keypeg]

I still get told by beginners now and then that what I am saying doesn't make sense or is too complicated (even if I am teaching in an appropriate way for most). I really appreciate the honesty of these students and always encourage students to speak up if they don't understand so I can make adjustments, simplify reasoning or repeat and highlight. On the other hand I have students who are very quiet and never speak up if they don't understand, I constantly need to prod them for feedback and provide them with courage to speak up if they don't understand. It is unfortunately a bad habit taught in group classrooms, that is to not to put your hand up when you are confused when the teacher is teaching (you get looks from your fellow students, you are considered interrupting the lesson etc). But with one on one lessons the discussion needs to be open, anytime something bothers the student they should speak up.

I agree.
I was thinking more along the lines of telling a teacher, "Your method of teaching me is wrong." or even something more subtle which criticizes the teaching rather than tells the teacher that you can't follow.  Ofc, the OP has already told the teacher that, and apparently she just repeats the same thing more slowly.  I agree that a teacher needs to know if a student doesn't understand something or is having trouble practicing at home - otherwise, how can you know?

[nyiregyhazi]

Why are you even quoting me on this? Seriously you must be quite a boring teacher if you do nothing else but teach piano.

A teacher of young children does not only need to teach the subject matter at hand and teaching manners is important for young minds, they need to learn from people older than themselves and if you have children you will realize that some of them actually listen to advice from people who are NOT family quite closely (the amount of times I've had parents ask me to tell their children to do this and that which is not piano related) . In fact your job is a lot more than that, even with adults who reveal difficulties in their life do I say, "Oh shut up I don't want to hear about your life, lets only talk about piano!"

Attribute random speculations as if they were fact if you will, but what I said is that I don't believe in TELLING people, be they kids or adults, how to behave. If for some reason it's convenient to assume that automatically means I'm not interested in students as people, then that's up to you. What I actually said was that I don't believe in berating them on non pianistic matters. Personally I see rather more value in spending any time off music in getting to know them than in wasting it on putting a barrier between yourself and them by lecturing them about life.

[the89thkey]

Attribute random speculations as if they were fact if you will, but what I said is that I don't believe in TELLING people, be they kids or adults, how to behave. If for some reason it's convenient to assume that automatically means I'm not interested in students as people, then that's up to you. What I actually said was that I don't believe in berating them on non pianistic matters. Personally I see rather more value in spending any time off music in getting to know them than in wasting it on putting a barrier between yourself and them by lecturing them about life.

Agree. I teach piano, not life.

[lostinidlewonder]

I was thinking more along the lines of telling a teacher, "Your method of teaching me is wrong." or even something more subtle which criticizes the teaching rather than tells the teacher that you can't follow.

Yes I think that is an important distinction to make. When in a teaching environment it is important that the student is capable to give constructive feedback, if something isn't working then they should be able to themselves notice their confusion and ask for elaboration or further instruction from the teacher. The teacher of course should be constantly assessing if whether what you are trying to teach is being processed effectively by the student.

Ofc, the OP has already told the teacher that, and apparently she just repeats the same thing more slowly.  I agree that a teacher needs to know if a student doesn't understand something or is having trouble practicing at home - otherwise, how can you know?

It is important that teachers are able to teach something in different ways or at least being able to approach problems at different angles and being able to simplify the stages.

Attribute random speculations as if they were fact if you will.....

And you please attribute your random elaborations on yawning etiquette to extend to how to "lecture them about life."  Lol you are a real laugh

but what I said is that I don't believe in TELLING people, be they kids or adults, how to behave. If for some reason it's convenient to assume that automatically means I'm not interested in students as people, then that's up to you. What I actually said was that I don't believe in berating them on non pianistic matters. Personally I see rather more value in spending any time off music in getting to know them than in wasting it on putting a barrier between yourself and them by lecturing them about life.

Teacher who do not teach young children manners if they behave incorrectly are terrible teachers. If you just want to teach your subject material and let the student do as they please then you certainly do not teach many children or adolescence or even teach in the public school system. So you would even let a student swear at you and tell you to #$* off would you huh? wow incredible.

[brogers70]

JustSheila,

Don't forget that you are paying your teacher real money. If you are not working as hard as you can, then you are wasting your money, and it's on you. But if you ARE working as hard as you can, and the teacher is not helping you progress, tell the teacher you are not satisfied with your progress, give her a brief chance to adapt, and if things don't get better, find another teacher.

Lessons are expensive. After every lesson, I ask myself if I learned something that I'm happy to pay that much for. So far, I have been happy, but I sure wouldn't keep paying the teacher if I weren't learning.

You're in charge, the teacher works for you. You should never be shy about telling the teacher what you need, and then switching teachers if you don't get it.

Bill

[nyiregyhazi]

And you please attribute your random elaborations on yawning etiquette to extend to how to "lecture them about life."  Lol you are a real laugh

It is not an "assumption" to state that to go on at a kid about whether it's okay to yawn is to "lecture them about life". It is an accurate classification- unlike the illogical assumption that anyone who does not do the same is therefore uninterested in their student's lives.

Teacher who do not teach young children manners if they behave incorrectly are terrible teachers. If you just want to teach your subject material and let the student do as they please then you certainly do not teach many children or adolescence or even teach in the public school system. So you would even let a student swear at you and tell you to #$* off would you huh? wow incredible.

Fine, I'm a "terrible teacher" then. I work in private schools which makes my life a lot easier, but I would not believe in disciplining children for anything if I were in state schools- EXCEPT where it directly interfered with my ability to teach them music. Yawning is not an example of that and I can think of few things  more  potentially destructive than disciplining someone for something quite so petty- out of a personal viewpoint about manners. What better way to create a sense of distance between yourself and the student? If a person's parents and the entire school system has not succeeded in teaching manners, I'm not interested in going on a one man crusade. If a child accidentally swears, it honestly doesn't bother me in the least, I would neither enourage nor have a go at them for it. Only if they were abusive directly towards me would there be an issue- not due to subjective issues about manners but because it would obviously create a problem in my ability to teach them.

Incidentally- are you trying to do an impersonation of the old Harry Enfield sketch where he concocts some fantastical situation about how a celebrity might behave badly- and then judges the real life person on this imaginary behaviour? You find the invented behaviour that you thought of and falsely attributed to me (having obviously decided to answer your own question to me, on my behalf) to be "incredible"?

[keypeg]

Niereghazy, check your quotes on your second last post - bottom.  It looks like you are saying something which somebody else said, and it doesn't reflect your views.

[nyiregyhazi]

Niereghazy, check your quotes on your second last post - bottom.  It looks like you are saying something which somebody else said, and it doesn't reflect your views.

Which bit?

[keypeg]

Which bit?

The one below.  In the post above your last one, it is written not as a quote but as your own words.  In your last post you quote that part and argue against it.  So they were never your own words.

"Teacher who do not teach young children manners if they behave incorrectly are terrible teachers. If you just want to teach your subject material and let the student do as they please then you certainly do not teach many children or adolescence or even teach in the public school system. So you would even let a student swear at you and tell you to #$* off would you huh? wow incredible."

[nyiregyhazi]

The one below.  In the post above your last one, it is written not as a quote but as your own words.  In your last post you quote that part and argue against it.  So they were never your own words.

"Teacher who do not teach young children manners if they behave incorrectly are terrible teachers. If you just want to teach your subject material and let the student do as they please then you certainly do not teach many children or adolescence or even teach in the public school system. So you would even let a student swear at you and tell you to #$* off would you huh? wow incredible."

? That's why I put them in a quote. Why would anyone think I was quoting myself and then arguing against my own points?

[keypeg]

? That's why I put them in a quote. Why would anyone think I was quoting myself and then arguing against my own points?

No - your post BEFORE that post.  It's at the end and it is not in quotes.  It looks like you wrote it.    Look one up.

[nyiregyhazi]

No - your post BEFORE that post.  It's at the end and it is not in quotes.  It looks like you wrote it.    Look one up.

? The only post before is where lostinidlewonder stated those words originally, as himself. There is only that post and the one where I quoted these words in a quote and replied to them. I really don't know what you are referring to. Either your Internet browser is producing something remarkably different to mine or you're assuming that I wrote his post.

[keypeg]

Oh shoot, yes.  I have to replace my mouse because it is "jumping" things, especially in long posts where I have to scroll more.

[lostinidlewonder]

It is not an "assumption" to state that to go on at a kid about whether it's okay to yawn is to "lecture them about life". It is an accurate classification- unlike the illogical assumption that anyone who does not do the same is therefore uninterested in their student's lives.

Teaching manners is not lecturing someone about life, if life was only about manners then this life would be very easy. You are really trying hard to find some debate about aren't you? Bored yes?

Fine, I'm a "terrible teacher" then.

Yeah you're the teacher who has students swearing and slapping you on the forehead every lesson.

I work in private schools which makes my life a lot easier, but I would not believe in disciplining children for anything if I were in state schools- EXCEPT where it directly interfered with my ability to teach them music. Yawning is not an example of that.......

What you measure as interfering in a lesson might be different to someone else, not everyone has to use your measuring sticks. It sounds like you are a contract worker in the school system because if you where actually an employee you would be told of how school students are expected to behave. When they are wearing a uniform they represent the school, all good private schools tell their teachers to enforce appropriate manners. In our school we even had to stand up when a teacher walked into class. So just because in YOUR little world it might be one way, don't think that the rest of the world has to be the same or they are mistaken.

[nyiregyhazi]

Yeah you're the teacher who has students swearing and slapping you on the forehead every lesson.

This characteristic (and clearly wilful) misrepresentation of my views and behaviour renders my interest in attempting further "discussion" on this nil. If your best attempt at that involves cheap point scoring by childish misrepresentation of any conflicting views to your own, then I have no further interest in continuing this on such terms.

PS in response to your further insinuations, I teach at two very expensive private schools- at which the idea of anyone sitting the music teachers around and ordering them to berate any children caught yawning is plain comical. I'm not sure what kind of false image you have of private schools, but I'm not aware of any music teachers having been warned about the evil of tolerating yawning...

A former head of music at our school was SACKED for his extreme authoritarian approach to discipline and replaced with an extremely friendly and lighthearted man who would never even contemplate telling someone off for a yawn. The uptake of students rose dramatically at this point.  

[lostinidlewonder]

Nice talking past someone.

[nyiregyhazi]

Nice talking past someone.

My post was about the topic. Perhaps you have wrongly assumed us to be writing private messages, but this is a forum. If my post wasn't the response that a single reader hoped for, then it doesn't concern me. That was a true story about what happened to a private school teacher who was too concerned by manners. If that didn't interest you, there are plenty of other teachers who read these forums too. If you want a free hit in whatever personal battle you perceive with me then be my guest, but I will not be making any further posts that are not about the topic of teaching and suggest that you consider the same.

I argue with points not individuals and I'm done on this issue.

[lostinidlewonder]

You don't argue about other peoples points very much at all, you make up points of your own and argue about those. So long you're happy.

[nyiregyhazi]

You don't argue about other peoples points very much at all, you make up points of your own and argue about those.

Given the sheer extent of irony involved here, I'll make a final post to quote you once again:

Yeah you're the teacher who has students swearing and slapping you on the forehead every lesson.

If really does pay to practise something if you intend to preach about it such a short time later.

I'm actually finding it hard to believe that I haven't making up points on your behalf, when I find myself having to say how ridiculous I consider it for an instrumental teacher to discipline children for yawning (a biological urge that is VERY hard to repress). Yet, you made that point as clear as day and have never given any cause to believe that it's not precisely what you have indeed been arguing for.

[lostinidlewonder]

Since you have a problem to find the crux of arguments let me paste it for you again.


What you measure as interfering in a lesson might be different to someone else, not everyone has to use your measuring sticks.

and here..

What you measure as interfering in a lesson might be different to someone else, not everyone has to use your measuring sticks.

one more..

What you measure as interfering in a lesson might be different to someone else, not everyone has to use your measuring sticks.

[nyiregyhazi]

Since you have a problem to find the crux of arguments let me paste it for you again.


What you measure as interfering in a lesson might be different to someone else, not everyone has to use your measuring sticks.

and here..

What you measure as interfering in a lesson might be different to someone else, not everyone has to use your measuring sticks.

one more..

What you measure as interfering in a lesson might be different to someone else, not everyone has to use your measuring sticks.

Fine, given that you have returned to the subject matter, I'll gladly reciprocate.

If yawning interferes with a lesson, how is disciplining the child going to help? Is it going to eliminate the biological urge? No. At best, they can strive to repress the yawn (while possibly feeling scared and uncomfortable about feeling the sensation begining) and develop skills at pretending they didn't FEEL like yawning. Note the word feel though. If they felt like yawning still, having been told not to didn't help. You cannot command that feel to go away.  If they were getting bored before, that hasn't stopped. They've just learned to hide the kind of valuable feedback that you referred to earlier in the thread from you. Was that useful? So, after this, precisely how have you stopped the yawning from interfering with lesson? Beneath the surface nothing has changed (except the possibility that the student now feels resentment towards their teacher for complaining about something that the child has no control over).

Respect is earned, not taken by force. If yawning comes from boredom, telling a student not to yawn does not alleviate boredom. It's necessary to EARN the student's interest. If a yawn means boredom, it should be viewed as useful feedback  that you need to recapture their interest.

The above is the crux of my own argument (in the most direct response to your own),  so I would appreciate it if you might avoid false attributions of opinion your response and deal my illustration of why complaining about yawning will not elimintate interference in teaching (if yawning can be deemed interference to start with), yet may create interference in the relationship between student and pupil.

[lostinidlewonder]

I said I "call them up" on it. It is your fantasy elaborating as to what I mean by that. You spew forth paragraphs upon paragraphs of your fantasy elaborations. It's really quite sad.

[nyiregyhazi]

I said I "call them up" on it. It is your fantasy elaborating as to what I mean by that. You spew forth paragraphs upon paragraphs of your fantasy elaborations. It's really quite sad.

You sidestepped my entire argument. You were talking about interference when you defined your argumental crux. Given that, how does "calling them up" alleviate such interference? What difference does a rewording make to my whole argument about a yawn being valuable feedback of the kind you were speaking about earlier in the thread- that would tell a teacher that they are not getting through and need to recapture the student's interest? By all means replace any alternative expressions I used with "call them up". My argument was not about the precise wording of it.

[lostinidlewonder]

You interpreted "calling them up" as this big disciplinary action thus engaging in debate with you is futile since you already have spoken past everything I said.

You said where does one draw the line, yet you draw the line at students swearing and hitting you because it interferes with the lesson but not at yawning, so indeed where does one draw the line? You seem to know exactly how to draw the line but question how others do it. Your logic saddens the little kitty.

[nyiregyhazi]

You interpreted "calling them up" as this big disciplinary action thus engaging in debate with you is futile since you already have spoken past everything I said.

Had I been speaking of something drastically different, it would have helped to establish that in your first response to me- rather than to wait some five or six posts before raising the issue. If I have been, as I said, please replace it with "calling them up" and then explain how it alleviates interference. Given that you have defined the issue of doing so as being at the crux of your argument, I don't see why you would refuse to follow up on it.

How does calling someone up on yawning eliminate interference?

I followed up on your crux. Please have the "manners" to follow up on how I have proceeded in direct response to that crux, with a crux of my own. If you feel where you draw the line is in the right place, why not share your reasons? Why would you guard them?

[lostinidlewonder]

You better just re-read its too mind numbing to help any further.


You think you answered anything in my argument after all your misconceptions? No where in what I pasted for you did I say "Yawning" yet you spewed forth a reply that referred to that and discipline. You mad

[nyiregyhazi]

You better just re-read its too mind numbing to help any further.

You never made a single statement that attempted to illustrate how calling someone up on yawning would help to prevent interference in lessons (which is your very own crux). Trying to get you to illustrate the basis for your beliefs, for consideration, is clearly a waste of time and I'm done thanks.

[lostinidlewonder]

100% of the time in the future if you reply to me it will end in this. So you better just stop quoting me and leave me alone I guess. You don't even know what I am arguing about, it has nothing to do with yawning at all, if you read what was pasted 3 times you will understand. Maybe read it a few times alone, take a walk, some deep breaths

[nyiregyhazi]

100% of the time in the future if you reply to me it will end in this. So you better just stop quoting me and leave me alone I guess.

I'll repeat, I reply to points, not people. I don't care who posts the opinion- I am not going to be censored on following up on any poster or belief system. While I can see it's a waste of time trying to get you to illustrate your reasoning behind something, I am not going to hold back from stating honest opinions.

[lostinidlewonder]

Well then you will just have to deal with this wont you and not get too upset about it

[nyiregyhazi]

You don't even know what I am arguing about, it has nothing to do with yawning at all, if you read what was pasted 3 times you will understand.  

I missed your edit before. The reason this ground to a halt is because although I followed up on this very repeated statement:

"What you measure as interfering in a lesson might be different to someone else, not everyone has to use your measuring sticks."

you did not answer my question about how calling a person up on yawning might alleviate interference. If there is no basis provided for how it will do so, the above has not even been established as something that so much as relates to your yawning issue. Discussion cannot go on without two way interaction. Asserting that you might have a different yardstick to someone who disagrees with is not discussion. DEFINING your yardstick and illustrating WHY it is your yardstick is how discussion progresses into something of value. I actually tried my best to have a chance to consider this from your point of view (before deciding for definite whether to retain a stance of disagreeing) but you didn't give a single piece of supporting reason for me to think about.

I've lost count of how many things I've come to change my mind on over the years- due to a persuasive logical argument. However, nobody ever changed their mind about something because someone chose to reword the phrase "different strokes for different folks" as if it supports their argument, rather than give actual reasoning for their beliefs.

[lostinidlewonder]

you did not answer my question about how calling a person up on yawning might alleviate interference.

Because it doesn't matter, its what I do, why do you care what I do? Maybe in my teaching system keeping energy levels high is important, I'm not going to reveal reasons why because it's "none ya".

[nyiregyhazi]

Because it doesn't matter, its what I do, why do you care what I do? Maybe in my teaching system keeping energy levels high is important, I'm not going to reveal reasons why because it's "none ya".

You defined whether something causes interference to learning as the crux of your argument, yet it doesn't matter? The manner in which calling people up on yawning prevents interference to learning, as per your self-defined crux, is classified? This is just plain silly and (seeing as attempting to steer you onto demonstrating why you hold your beliefs went nowhere) this is definitely my last addition to this matter.