Do you show your diplomas if parents request to see them?

[p2u_]

How can someone be expected to pay for expensive lessons that RECUR week after week- if they have no yardstick to measure quality of the produce received? You and I know diplomas can be useless. But a person who has no yardstick would be wiser to value them than to assume that whoever they chance upon will come up with something worthy of their money on a long-term basis.

The problem with this reasoning: all parents will know is whether the teacher has or doesn't have a diploma, and that's it. What kind of assurance is that actually in the value-for-money issue? Parents should be taught to ask the RIGHT kind of questions so they can really buy value for money. Asking the teacher to take his pants off (show me your diploma) is not going to cut it. Just saying.

Paul

[the89thkey]

Here we are on page 2 and I might as well say that a parent asking for a diploma is a sign of naivety, not much else.

[nyiregyhazi]

The problem with this reasoning: all parents will know is whether the teacher has or doesn't have a diploma, and that's it. What kind of assurance is that actually in the value-for-money issue? Parents should be taught to ask the RIGHT kind of questions so they can really buy value for money. Asking the teacher to take his pants off (show me your diploma) is not going to cut it. Just saying.

Paul

I think you're missing my point- which is not about what is the right question to ask. My point is that it's perfectly understandable that a person who does not know the right question to ask will look to qualifications. That is completely natural and not something that should be taken as an insult in itself, if they wish to see them. The right questions to ask is a whole separate issue- but non musicians are rarely going to be in a position to appreciate what to look for, regardless of the fact that we would know as professionals. I think we should appreciate how different it is to come from the outside and give people a chance- rather than assume that anyone who looks to qualifications can be assumed simply as the nuisance type. It can equally be a sign that they are prudent and aware that they are not personally qualified to judge what they would need to look for themself.

[p2u_]

My point is that it's perfectly understandable that a person who does not know the right question to ask will look to qualifications.

It is perfectly understandable but if you make this the norm, then it becomes very much a two-edged sword. I'd rather see official institutions separate the wheat from the chaff, and not people who don't have a clue. Doesn't it mean, for example, that we need to clean out official musical institutions first of all because many who "teach" there have Performers' Diplomas only, but nothing related to actual teaching? Remember: the logic for checking qualifications is that any person who does not have the right teaching diplomas cannot reasonably teach. This striving for formality in all areas of life would also mean that people like Vladimir Horowitz, for example, would not be allowed to perform. He did not have a diploma from Conservatory because he couldn't prove he had been through secondary education.

Paul

[the89thkey]

This is getting a bit annoying...

[outin]

It is perfectly understandable but if you make this the norm, then it becomes very much a two-edged sword. I'd rather see official institutions separate the wheat from the chaff, and not people who don't have a clue. Doesn't it mean, for example, that we need to clean out official musical institutions first of all because many who "teach" there have Performers' Diplomas only, but nothing related to actual teaching? Remember: the logic for checking qualifications is that any person who does not have the right teaching diplomas cannot reasonably teach. This striving for formality in all areas of life would also mean that people like Vladimir Horowitz, for example, would not be allowed to perform. He did not have a diploma from Conservatory because he couldn't prove he had been through secondary education.

To be honest it may actually be that many of those teachers who have not had any training in teaching may not be able to TEACH that well. From what I read you seem to be natural in it and many are, but there are probably also those who can only teach "talented" students that do not actually require much teaching at all and have no special needs. If piano skills were considered as important as reading skills and teachers were required to teach everyone to at least some level and not be able to choose the students, I am sure many of them would be quite lost

I come from a country where teachers are supposed to have higher education and even if one is allowed to teach piano without any qualifications, most do have a degree in teaching music. I can see how some people feel that it is "safer" to pick a teacher that has a teaching degree, especially if they have no knowledge or experience to judge themselves from a sample lesson. It's no quarantee, but the probability of not getting lost is better.

That said, the person must be ready to come to meet in the studio and look at the certificates there at a convenient time and should not expect a discount either. If one wants cheap it's best to go to an unqualified teacher.

[green]

Well I see this is the problem with advertising publicly, you become one of those 20 teachers who parents fire off an email to asking what you charge, these parents aren't sifting and selecting, if they know nothing about music what is a trial lesson going to accomplish? They wouldn't know if you play well or not, if what you are teaching is sound or not. I think this is why when parents tell you that they have tried the local tread mill yamaha school, didn't like it, and just want their kid to have fun and enjoy themselves, these are often the warning signs. In fact when I hear this I literally feel shot in the foot, game over, you've already lost and engaging with this situation will most likely be a losing battle. Because they are not willing to work for you! Parents want quality and hard work from you, they want to see qualifications, they want verification that you are legitimate, but they just want their kid to have fun. This is why if you already teach at a school parents will usually automatically trust you and choose that teacher over someone advertising on the net with a phd.

I've been lucky to have had parents in the past who really do understand the deep commitment of learning, who have shown me a great deal of respect, and consequently who made remarkable progress. These are the parents who are going to refer you to those parents who may not have that background, but who trust their friend, and follow you with the same level of respect. They form a network and learn from one another and allow you to be the guiding force, this has been my experience in the past, which has it's advantages and disadvantages.

[p2u_]

I've been lucky to have had parents in the past who really do understand the deep commitment of learning, who have shown me a great deal of respect, and consequently who made remarkable progress. These are the parents who are going to refer you to those parents who may not have that background, but who trust their friend, and follow you with the same level of respect. They form a network and learn from one another and allow you to be the guiding force, this has been my experience in the past, which has it's advantages and disadvantages.

One thing to think about for the future is to have business references to strengthen your reputation; do not depend on the goodwill of your students alone, but, for example, also think of the local music store where they all buy their books. Most music book shops have discounts for students, so when your students buy scores, they will most probably mention your name and tell the shop owner a bit about how they like your lessons and stuff. The music store may have a list of names of all the teachers in the neighborhood; get in there. This is very much a "scratch-my-back-and-I'll-scratch-yours" thing, you know. The shop owner knows that you are one of those who provide him with clients for his business, so you have his goodwill already. The same goes for the piano seller, etc.

Paul

[slane]

Ah music stores ... I remember those ...   

[green]

Yes. I think what has emerged from this discussion and debate, is that the underlying issue we are addressing is how we as educators are embedded within the community in which we work. Which is another way of saying that it is indeed the network of relationships which serves to validate who we are as professionals. Yes the local music shop, our web presence - Facebook, our website, social networking forums, this forum, etc - affiliations, our studio, recitals, our student body, our presence in the community, in other words our network of relationships is what it's all about, not credentials, or whether we show them or not, it's just the wrong question to be asking, exactly. The question is "who are you!" and the answer is, "I am a network, here it is, and who are you?" So in this way, every part and aspect of our network of relationships supports and underlies everything in connection to our life and business, and pleasure, of being a healthy active musician and teacher.

[p2u_]

the local music shop, our web presence - Facebook, our website, social networking forums, this forum, etc - affiliations, our studio, recitals, our student body, our presence in the community, in other words our network of relationships is what it's all about

Although this is a bit off-topic, I would like to post a sidenote to what you write.

[Off-topic begin] Your own website is OK and so are certain (piano) forums on the Web. The odd one out for me would be Facebook and comparable social networks (every country has a couple of their own). I avoid them like the plague. Even if you manage your "privacy" and "security" settings yourself (they don't even work, but that's another story), you have no control over what others do. Apart from the cyber threats (too well known to repeat here), you or the too-willing-to-share people in your group, who mostly register with real data, may get hurt in the real world, especially if people give out addresses, time tables, current location, details about the interior of their homes, income (!?!), how much they pay here and there and for what, etc. It's up to everyone's imagination what criminals, enemies, competitors, etc. can do with such info. If you have a business or anything else you wouldn't like to lose - stay out of there. Again: just saying. [Off-topic end]

Paul

[nyiregyhazi]

especially if people give out addresses, time tables, current location, details about the interior of their homes, income (!?!), how much they pay here and there and for what, etc. It's up to everyone's imagination what criminals, enemies, competitors, etc. can do with such info.

I think a person would have to be extremely naive to publish such details on facebook. While you have to take a little bit of care on certain issues, there are relatively few things that take anything less than basic common sense.

[nyiregyhazi]

It is perfectly understandable but if you make this the norm, then it becomes very much a two-edged sword. I'd rather see official institutions separate the wheat from the chaff, and not people who don't have a clue. Doesn't it mean, for example, that we need to clean out official musical institutions first of all because many who "teach" there have Performers' Diplomas only, but nothing related to actual teaching? Remember: the logic for checking qualifications is that any person who does not have the right teaching diplomas cannot reasonably teach. This striving for formality in all areas of life would also mean that people like Vladimir Horowitz, for example, would not be allowed to perform. He did not have a diploma from Conservatory because he couldn't prove he had been through secondary education.

Please appreciate the very deliberate distinction that I'm making. There's a very big difference between feeling that a parent who has no knowledge to go on (and who hence looks to such issues as diplomas) should not be judged for doing so, compared to the idea that the world in general ought to function around diplomas. You have to know things before you can appreciate that a badge is not everything. For a person with no knowledge of a field, checking for some form credentials is a lot more shrewd than going along with whatever a person claims about themself. There's no shortage of people in the world who are completely incompetent and unqualified, yet who can be persuasive if you were to listen to what they might tell you about themself. A genuine diploma means there's at least SOME foundation behind that person- even if it doesn't prove that they are a good teacher.

Until parents are all experts in music and teaching, they'd be absolutely right to put qualifications among their considerations. In Britain, for example, where ABRSM exams are available, it would be crazy not to expect a teacher to have a grade 8 (preferably with distinction). While it's not the big deal some think it is, any teacher worth their salt ought to be up to having done it. Even for those who are so advanced as to consider it beneath them, if they did not have a more advanced performance diploma to their name it would be wise to take the exam- simply to show that they have some credentials behind them. People like to know these things. If a better teacher were out there who has neither grade 8 nor a performance diploma, he'd only have himself to blame if he lost out on pupils because he wasn't prepared to sell himself (by sitting an exam that he could succeed in at the drop of a hat). If we downplay these things, not only are validating the handful of accomplished teachers with no formal qualifications, but we are also validating a plethora of completely incompetent people who are are neither accomplished as teachers nor knowledgeable about what they purport to teach. I'd sooner see the genuine examples forced to get a token qualification than validate those who aren't even up to getting hold of one.

[p2u_]

especially if people give out addresses, time tables, current location, details about the interior of their homes, income (!?!), how much they pay here and there and for what, etc. It's up to everyone's imagination what criminals, enemies, competitors, etc. can do with such info.

I think a person would have to be extremely naive to publish such details on facebook. While you have to take a little bit of care on certain issues, there are relatively few things that take anything less than basic common sense.

Think again. It would be better to continue this conversation in the "Anything but piano" section, but I remind you what happened to the 20-year old son of security guru Mr. Kaspersky last year:
Kaspersky's Son 'Kidnapped'
At that time, nobody believed it (they thought it was a publicity stunt, but it turned out to be very true). Here's a quote:

The alleged criminals could have obtained information on Ivan Kaspersky's residence from his page on social network Vkontakte.ru, where he wrote the full address of the apartment he had lived in since 1991

The info obtained through such networks from people who think they are safe is used for kidnapping, extortion, blackmail, burglary, libel, and more. Of course, it was initially all set up by "the good guys" to make b-i-i-i-g money with data mining, advertising and also for law enforcement purposes.

Paul

[p2u_]

Please appreciate the very deliberate distinction that I'm making. There's a very big difference between feeling that a parent who has no knowledge to go on (and who hence looks to such issues as diplomas) should not be judged for doing so, compared to the idea that the world in general ought to function around diplomas.

I see what you mean and I'll leave it at that. I guess I'm too religious about the role a Teacher should have in society.

Paul

[nyiregyhazi]

I think a person would have to be extremely naive to publish such details on facebook. While you have to take a little bit of care on certain issues, there are relatively few things that take anything less than basic common sense.

Think again. It would be better to continue this conversation in the "Anything but piano" section, but I remind you what happened to the 20-year old son of security guru Mr. Kaspersky last year:
Kaspersky's Son 'Kidnapped'
At that time, nobody believed it (they thought it was a publicity stunt, but it turned out to be very true). Here's a quote:The info obtained through such networks from people who think they are safe is used for kidnapping, extortion, blackmail, burglary, libel, and more. Of course, it was initially all set up by "the good guys" to make b-i-i-i-g money with data mining, advertising and also for law enforcement purposes.

Paul

I don't think it's  completely off-limits to have a brief tangent. In the above example, I'd just question how much is really down to the internet? He was not a target because of giving his address- but because of his position as someone from a wealthy family. Aside from the fact that this is not the case for most people, if someone has a severe personal grudge then they can track you down with or without such information being freely presented online. There are few people that have serious cause for worry and those few need to be as careful in everyday life. It's not just the internet that could lead to a wealthy person compromising their own safety.

[p2u_]

In the above example, I'd just question how much is really down to the internet?

The situation of a social network invites people to be open, too open, sometimes even more open than they would be in real life person-to-person. They think they have privacy there because the settings say that they blocked everybody except their so-called "friends". They think they can write just about anything through PM, etc. That is a big, big mistake. There are certain very simple tricks to bypass the so-called security settings of this type of networks and get access to off-limits territory in a profile. As to the straightforward stuff in their profiles (pictures, videos, etc.): you would fall right off your chair if you saw what certain people post about themselves. You may be cautious, but your "friends" may have another perception about the whole thing.

Second, people often don't realize what they actually reveal by writing or posting certain things about themselves. For example, they may post beautiful photos or video clips of themselves and their families saying: "Hey, look at me. I'm in Spain right now", but the potential burglar reads "Hey, look at me. I'm not in Britain right now. You can burgle my house if you like"...

I'm sorry, but I have to stop here. The only link with this topic is that I also have diplomas in the computer security field... and no... I won't show those either...

Paul

[nyiregyhazi]

Second, people often don't realize what they actually reveal by writing or posting certain things about themselves. For example, they may post beautiful photos or video clips of themselves and their families saying: "Hey, look at me. I'm in Spain right now", but the potential burglar reads "Hey, look at me. I'm not in Britain right now. You can burgle my house if you like"...

For me, worrying about that would be the same kind of borderline paranoia that makes some people think there's a paedophile around every corner. If you set the security so only your friends see your stuff, it's no different to telling a friend you're going abroad. If we'd worry about that, we should also worry about telling friends things in real life- in case they tell someone else who tells someone else etc. who robs you. While there are some reasonable precautions that ought to be taken, there's no reason to take a drastically different view to that which you would have in everyday life. I wonder exactly how often everyday people who live in everyday houses have been burgled due to computer hackers breaking into their restricted facebook account and learning of a holiday? Personally, I doubt whether it's significant enough to warrant concern.

[outin]

I guess life is so much easier when you have nothing much to be robbed and no-one would pay a penny to get you back

Life is dangerous but I'm not going to start getting paranoid over things that may happen but most probably won't. My address can be found with google due to my other hobby but it has never worried me a bit.

Not that I have no desire to go to facebook either, since I have little interest in what other people are doing...

[the89thkey]

For me, worrying about that would be the same kind of borderline paranoia that makes some people think there's a paedophile around every corner. If you set the security so only your friends see your stuff, it's no different to telling a friend you're going abroad. If we'd worry about that, we should also worry about telling friends things in real life- in case they tell someone else who tells someone else etc. who robs you. While there are some reasonable precautions that ought to be taken, there's no reason to take a drastically different view to that which you would have in everyday life. I wonder exactly how often everyday people who live in everyday houses have been burgled due to computer hackers breaking into their restricted facebook account and learning of a holiday? Personally, I doubt whether it's significant enough to warrant concern.

This is true...but it's not piano

[p2u_]

For me, worrying about that would be the same kind of borderline paranoia that makes some people think there's a paedophile around every corner.

Not being paranoid does not mean that you're not being followed...
P.S.: It's not just crimes. If you don't pay taxes, alimony, outstanding traffic fines, etc., you pretend to be unemployed, but you mention your fee + your number of students there, the authorities will track you down really fast through social networks, at least that's what they do here in Russia. Not to speak of the advertisers/dataminers. Owners of social networks copy ALL your data to mirror servers and sell them to interested third parties, so deleting a post does not mean that what you wrote while being drunk will no longer haunt you afterwards. Your data may end up somewhere unexpected and in such a way that may get you fired. A friend of mine posted several naked photos there and lost her job (in Holland, what you may call a progressive country). Here are the do's and don'ts concerning social networking for teachers: Friendly Advice For Teachers: Beware Of Facebook. I really got to stop now, otherwise the89thkey may lose his temper and report me for trolling...

Paul

[the89thkey]

Just because you're not paranoid does not mean that you're not being followed...
P.S.: It's not just crimes. If you don't pay taxes, alimony, outstanding traffic fines, etc., you pretend to be unemployed, but you mention your fee + your number of students there, the authorities will track you down really fast through social networks, at least that's what they do here in Russia. Not to speak of the advertisers/dataminers. Owners of social networks copy ALL your data to mirror servers and sell them to interested third parties, so deleting a post does not mean that what you wrote while being drunk will no longer haunt you afterwards. Your data may end up somewhere unexpected and in such a way that may get you fired. A friend of mine posted several naked photos there and lost her job (in Holland, what you may call a progressive country). Here are the do's and don'ts concerning social networking for teachers: Friendly Advice For Teachers: Beware Of Facebook. I really got to stop now, otherwise the89thkey may lose his temper and report me for trolling...

Paul

Who is the89thkey?