Chopin's Ocean strikes again...

[thelightfromheaven]

Hi ev'ryone!

I tarted learning the Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12 last summer and now I have some problems with it.
I often hit wrong notes somewhere middle in the arpeggios, what exercises should I do, to "play this etude clean"?
I have a feeling, that I have played slowly for ages now, but when it comes to faster tempos, the mistakes are still there. I've also played the etude in chords, dotted patterns, etc, but this far, nothing has actually helped. What to do?

Thanks in advice and
SorY four mai bed inglish. 

[andreslr6]

Hey, same story with me, started it practicing last summer, with chords too and dotted rhythms, just one question, have you tried ALL possible rhythms combination/pattern possibilities? I have stopped practicing because I don't like it anymore haha, but I'll probably start practicing again. Try every combination/pattern you can think of, 1 slow 3 fast, 1 slow 2 fast 1 slow, 1 fast 2 slow 1 fast, etc.

When doing the chords, pay close attention to your position, hands and ELBOW. In my experience, wrong elbow position is the main reason/cause of wrong notes, how to tell if your elbow is raised in the right position? when your 5th finger is well placed, parallel to the keys, and when your elbow is more or less at the same height of the keyboard.

Practice passages as slow as possible with completely 0 mistakes and 0 hesitations.

Practice with different finger attacks? (is that the term in english? I'm just translating directly from Spanish ) that's with finger raised, pulling fingers from the keyboard,etc.

Also, watch your 2nd finger, in my case the 2nd finger was the one that had more trouble playing cleanly.

Speed up gradually, with metronome. Also, the faster you play it the bigger your impulses will be.

When you practice with dotted rhythms, start playing bigger passages until you can play the whole etude with one rhythm pattern/combination with 0 mistakes and 0 hesitation, until you can do the whole etude with 1 rhythm. And practice playing it from start to end very slowly, really slowly, I'm talking about 40-50 bpm the SEMIQUAVER, yeah, it takes a lot of patience, but believe me, your concentration capacity will boost immensely. Also with 0 mistakes and 0 hesitation. * notice how I said to practice it slow twice? it's THAT important.

And, if you practice by repeating any passage in any way, always repeat with 0 mistakes and 0 hesitation.

That's how I practice it.

[thelightfromheaven]

Well, first, thanks for your reply.

I'm not a very creative teenager, so, I couldn't think of every possible combination, but, I will definitely include more patterns into my everyday-ocean-practice.

Funny, that even playing slow, I tend to make mistakes. Ok, not funny, sad.

I'm afraid that there is no such term in english, but I understand what you mean.

I don't have any problems with notes played by 2nd or 3rd finger, maybe because of my big hand.

Thank you very much for the advice, I think I will find this very useful.

[evitaevita]

Maybe this would be useful for your practice! 
It's Cortot's Student Edition of Chopin's Etude Op.25 No.12. Really interesting!!!
Sorry,  I don't have a pdf of it, but I uploaded these...: 

[thelightfromheaven]

Thank you, I was just looking for Cortot's edition of this etude in english.
This will be an interesting reading material, I guess.

[cmg]

The tricky part of this Etude is coming DOWN the keyboard.  Musically and technically, it makes sense to rush to the top (crashing wave with those ringing high notes), which is really quite easy,  then diminuendo down and slightly retard to the bottom.  Also, in practicing, slow the tempo of the descent to a marked degree so when you reach the bottom bass note, you're present and accounted for, and able to hit the bottom bass with the whole weight of your arm.  That's where the tune is:  make it ring out big.

In slow practice, exaggerate the rotation, both up and down the keyboard.  Such exaggeration moves your hands to the perfect spot for the next position.  And make sure, in slow practice, to notice that you need, in the RH, to have the thumb to nearly overlap the 5th finger at the top of each arpeggio.  Play the 5th finger, then hold it to let the thumb join it, then proceed to the next arpeggio.  (The same for the LH.)  

[ruvidoetostinato]

I would also suggest if you were to practice it slowly and blocked, to keep in mind the motion you'd require if you played the piece fast. 

Therefore, any labored/slow/relaxed movement between hand positions when switching would not help you once you raised the tempo. 

Therefore, maybe practice the attacks slow, but the hand movement quickly.  If your hand/arm movement is also slow when practicing slow, that habit becomes a curse when the tempo is fast.

I think

[ruvidoetostinato]

Also, if practicing slow, I would strongly suggest not making the accuracy your complete goal, but instead how comfortable it is when you execute it. 

For example, if you move to a position, feel all the keys under your fingers.  Really feel the solidity, and see if you had any hesitation in arriving to that destination.  If you did, chances are that'll happen much more frequently when taking a faster tempo.  I think that slow practice is meant to internalize the motions that you would not have time to think of when playing something an a desired tempo.  Therefore, every aspect of playing in "slow practice" should be enhanced, such as the security you feel when moving positions. 

[wnlqxod]

What's causing your mistakes? Is it the index/middle finger, or the thumb/pinky as you switch those fngers?

In general:
Try to avoid using a bigger motion than is necessary- i.e. don't move your wrist up and down when you can do it without so much wrist movement. This is just a random example out of thin air- I am just trying to give you an idea of what I mean.

If it's the index/middle finger: practice the regular, full arpeggio of the modified arpeggio that appears in the etude (i.e. The first arpeggio that appears in the etude is a C minor arpeggio in 1st inversion with the C omitted), and remember how your muscles and your bones feel when that index/middle finger is in the correct plage.

If it's the thumb/pinky:
I would have to see you play, but:
1. Don't bend the distal phalanx of the thumb (your thumb consists of two segments; I am talking about the upper segment- you know, the segment that has your nail on it?) in an effort to bring it over onto the new key one octave higher for right hand or one octave lower for left hand. Trust me, keeping your thumb as straight as you can works.
2. When you practice slowly, deliberately release the pinky and bring the thumb over. Likewise, very deliberately release the thumb and bring the pinky over. It will sound a bit "broken" at slow tempo; that's the point.
3. Afer you press on the key with your thumb, splay your hand and "hover" the pinky over the key that is one octave above the thumb (for right hand) or below (for left hand). Likewise, after you press on the key with your pinky, splay your hand and "hover" the thumb over the key that is one octave below the thumb (for right hand) or above (for left hand). "Hovering" the next octave will not only help you play the next octave correctly, but it will also "drag" your index and middle fingers along toward a more correct position without you knowing it.

Again, I'd like to see you play this as you described to see what's wrong, but these are some general pointers.

[thelightfromheaven]

The tricky part of this Etude is coming DOWN the keyboard.  Musically and technically, it makes sense to rush to the top (crashing wave with those ringing high notes), which is really quite easy,  then diminuendo down and slightly retard to the bottom.  Also, in practicing, slow the tempo of the descent to a marked degree so when you reach the bottom bass note, you're present and accounted for, and able to hit the bottom bass with the whole weight of your arm.  That's where the tune is:  make it ring out big.

In slow practice, exaggerate the rotation, both up and down the keyboard.  Such exaggeration moves your hands to the perfect spot for the next position.  And make sure, in slow practice, to notice that you need, in the RH, to have the thumb to nearly overlap the 5th finger at the top of each arpeggio.  Play the 5th finger, then hold it to let the thumb join it, then proceed to the next arpeggio.  (The same for the LH.) 

I know many people, who have or have had problems coming down from the top of the arpeggio, however, I don't have problems with such a thing. Coming down just seems natural to me.

[thelightfromheaven]

What's causing your mistakes? Is it the index/middle finger, or the thumb/pinky as you switch those fngers?

In general:
Try to avoid using a bigger motion than is necessary- i.e. don't move your wrist up and down when you can do it without so much wrist movement. This is just a random example out of thin air- I am just trying to give you an idea of what I mean.

If it's the index/middle finger: practice the regular, full arpeggio of the modified arpeggio that appears in the etude (i.e. The first arpeggio that appears in the etude is a C minor arpeggio in 1st inversion with the C omitted), and remember how your muscles and your bones feel when that index/middle finger is in the correct plage.

If it's the thumb/pinky:
I would have to see you play, but:
1. Don't bend the distal phalanx of the thumb (your thumb consists of two segments; I am talking about the upper segment- you know, the segment that has your nail on it?) in an effort to bring it over onto the new key one octave higher for right hand or one octave lower for left hand. Trust me, keeping your thumb as straight as you can works.
2. When you practice slowly, deliberately release the pinky and bring the thumb over. Likewise, very deliberately release the thumb and bring the pinky over. It will sound a bit "broken" at slow tempo; that's the point.
3. Afer you press on the key with your thumb, splay your hand and "hover" the pinky over the key that is one octave above the thumb (for right hand) or below (for left hand). Likewise, after you press on the key with your pinky, splay your hand and "hover" the thumb over the key that is one octave below the thumb (for right hand) or above (for left hand). "Hovering" the next octave will not only help you play the next octave correctly, but it will also "drag" your index and middle fingers along toward a more correct position without you knowing it.

Again, I'd like to see you play this as you described to see what's wrong, but these are some general pointers.

Sometimes it is the index finger, but sometimes, pinky-thumb, so, I guess all of your advices will be very useful.
And reason, why mistakes happen to me, is - when I hit a wrong note going up the arpeggio, I usually make more mistakes, it is like a snowball.
No problems going downwards though.

[pts1]

Since I'm not with you and can't see what is giving you trouble, I won't presume to tell you what you need to do.

However, I can tell you what I did to learn this etude and how I practice it.

First, always be aware of Chopin's admonitions/suggestions.

His hand was lightly positioned with a light arm on the keys he was playing, and sound production was a matter of pulling the key down quickly with the greatest economy.

Most movement was for conveying the hand to the next position, fingers lightly prepared ON the key to play.

With this in mind, the principal difficulty in this etude is not playing the first 3 notes: e.g. RH Eb G Eb, but quickly playing the 3rd Eb with the 5th finger and switching to the thumb and positioning the hand for the next octave.

So I practiced the first 4 notes of the arpeggio quickly and making the "pinky thumb" switch and repositioning the hand for the next octave making sure the fingers ( 2 and 5) are already ON the next G and Eb.... then playing the next 3 notes (which makes the "pinky thumb" switch with hand and finger placement, then again the last octave up... then reverse the process down.

Ditto for the left hand.

And practice it at a fairly quick tempo that mimics the same movement you'll use at full speed.

Its useless to raise the fingers "Hannon like" and hit the keys trying to be accurate and strong, since this will never work.

Also, contrary to popular opinion, this piece doesn't take all the power that students think it does!

In each measure there is only 1 melody note. The rest (the arpeggio figures) are the mood/accompaniment.

Playing the melody i.e. Eb, D, F, Eb, D, Eb, C -- is where the effort is spent!
So you can play this about forte, the arpeggios mezzo forte, and you have the basic strategy.

Not only does this save a LOT of muscle effort, it is MUCH more musical.

The melody is what is important, and the rest is atmosphere and accompaniment.

If you'll think of the 1st etude in opus 25 as this one's "cousin" with its melody floating on top of arpeggiated accompaniment, then I believe this helps.

I would further recommend that you practice this softly and gently -- though not too slowly -- until the motion is fully learned.

You'll find that once this is accomplished, it will take very little effort to add a bit of volume and speed.

"Endurance" comes from the economy and precision of execution, along with the musical rendering of the melody and appropriate accompaniment -- not attempting to "build muscle" and "attack" the keys.

[thelightfromheaven]

Since I'm not with you and can't see what is giving you trouble, I won't presume to tell you what you need to do.

However, I can tell you what I did to learn this etude and how I practice it.

First, always be aware of Chopin's admonitions/suggestions.

His hand was lightly positioned with a light arm on the keys he was playing, and sound production was a matter of pulling the key down quickly with the greatest economy.

Most movement was for conveying the hand to the next position, fingers lightly prepared ON the key to play.

With this in mind, the principal difficulty in this etude is not playing the first 3 notes: e.g. RH Eb G Eb, but quickly playing the 3rd Eb with the 5th finger and switching to the thumb and positioning the hand for the next octave.

So I practiced the first 4 notes of the arpeggio quickly and making the "pinky thumb" switch and repositioning the hand for the next octave making sure the fingers ( 2 and 5) are already ON the next G and Eb.... then playing the next 3 notes (which makes the "pinky thumb" switch with hand and finger placement, then again the last octave up... then reverse the process down.

Ditto for the left hand.

And practice it at a fairly quick tempo that mimics the same movement you'll use at full speed.

Its useless to raise the fingers "Hannon like" and hit the keys trying to be accurate and strong, since this will never work.

Also, contrary to popular opinion, this piece doesn't take all the power that students think it does!

In each measure there is only 1 melody note. The rest (the arpeggio figures) are the mood/accompaniment.

Playing the melody i.e. Eb, D, F, Eb, D, Eb, C -- is where the effort is spent!
So you can play this about forte, the arpeggios mezzo forte, and you have the basic strategy.

Not only does this save a LOT of muscle effort, it is MUCH more musical.

The melody is what is important, and the rest is atmosphere and accompaniment.

If you'll think of the 1st etude in opus 25 as this one's "cousin" with its melody floating on top of arpeggiated accompaniment, then I believe this helps.

I would further recommend that you practice this softly and gently -- though not too slowly -- until the motion is fully learned.

You'll find that once this is accomplished, it will take very little effort to add a bit of volume and speed.

"Endurance" comes from the economy and precision of execution, along with the musical rendering of the melody and appropriate accompaniment -- not attempting to "build muscle" and "attack" the keys.

Well, thanks, makes me think in a different direction.

[the89thkey]

The important thing is to hear the melody. If you play the arpeggios with perfect technique, but do not accent the melody notes or cause them to stand out in any way, the melody blends into the arpeggio and the piece sounds rather boring. You need to get that extra strong key strike. Also hear the melody intervals at the first note of each measure. First there is a minor 10th, then a 9th, then an 11th, and so on. Also listen to the pattern in each arpeggio. For example, in the 6th bar hear the chord C-F-Ab-B-Eb-Ab-Eb very strongly in your head for the entire bar.