How the heck do you freaking play fast octaves?!

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Okay so some dude said that my octave passage in La Campanella wasn't fast enough.  Actually quite a few people.

How the heck do I fix that?!  I dont think fingering is an issue because I use 13, 14, and 15, but it's still not "fast" enough what the heck?!  It's like there's this wall and I can't go through it, it's really weird.

So...  I need sorta like a get rich quick deal, except with octaves.  Get fast octaves quick!  Yeah...

Go!

[p2u_]

How the heck do you freaking play fast octaves?!

First of all, you should stop thinking about them as "fast". They become fast when you group them in a musical, melodic way, but first you will have to understand and master the basic principle behind the technique. It's a supple hand and active finger tips that rebound you to the next note like a basketball. Just like with a bouncing basketball, you should mostly let it happen and not interfere too much; just slight musical impulses to guide the movement, change the direction, etc. DON'T BRACE YOUR FINGERS and don't push from the arms down!

Paul

[drexo]

This might can help you.

[49410enrique]

this might can inspire (or infuriate) you. 

[the89thkey]

all I can say is practice scales in octaves in all keys. do them not fast but accurate. Soon you will be able to play Campanella much faster and cleaner.

[brendan765]

TAUBMAN, yes perfect example!!! aim the fingers where needed, and wrists/forarms and shoulders lift your hands, hands are under gravitational force downward of -9.8 m/s 2 (the acceleration of gravity)

Hands muscles are only really used for thumb movement  and grasping, stretching motions for large chords, etc,,,

on the strike though your whole arms and (upper body, some even say whole body...to an extent)  acts as a shock absorber...more shock absorbment needs to happen..when you get up to fortissimo and all that...It is quite complicated if you do it wrong, you will probably fix it in the wrong way still, which to me your whole technique could be wrong, I know mine was for the longest time, its a pregnant dog to get used to correct technique...

Im no great explainer...talk to a very good piano teacher, or watch that Taubman video or other stuff like that.

[lufia]

The secret to playing freaking fast octaves?  

Instead of using small wrist motions to play fast octaves (if you do your just wasting time), use one hand motion to play at least 3 octaves in one go. So once your wrist goes down to play an octave, you play 3 octaves in 1 motion.

Hand goes Down down down in one motion, the down being an octave played. Thats how your suppose to play it if you want virtuoso speed, especially in the repeated octaves of la campanella, you will blitz it once you get the technique down.

[perfect_pitch]

HOLY CRAP... I didn't realise there was video of Pollini playing Brahms 1st Piano Concerto in d minor...

Does ANYONE have any idea where you can either download or BUY it??? I have to get this recording.

[p2u_]

HOLY CRAP... I didn't realise there was video of Pollini playing Brahms 1st Piano Concerto in d minor...

Does ANYONE have any idea where you can either download or BUY it??? I have to get this recording.

There is only one small fragment where you see him playing it:

.
There are more than one video where you can hear him:
[ Invalid YouTube link ]Pollini+Brahms+-+Piano+concerto+1

Paul

[nyiregyhazi]

TAUBMAN, yes perfect example!!! aim the fingers where needed, and wrists/forarms and shoulders lift your hands, hands are under gravitational force downward of -9.8 m/s 2 (the acceleration of gravity)

Hands muscles are only really used for thumb movement  and grasping, stretching motions for large chords, etc,,,

on the strike though your whole arms and (upper body, some even say whole body...to an extent)  acts as a shock absorber...more shock absorbment needs to happen..when you get up to fortissimo and all that..

Sorry to be blunt, but objectively speaking this a load of old bull. There are some practically useful idea in Taubman, but taken at face value it is VERY misleading. Firstly, the arm is sort of a shock absorber, but it's the thumb and finger that play the biggest role in shock absorption. If they don't move, the arm provides mass for shock, not absorption- regardless of whether you brace or allow them to collapse. If the fingers time movement well, they send momentum away from impact however (and transmit energy with phenomenal efficiency- which reduces the need to throw the mass of your arm crashing down into every individual octaves).

In particular, the idea that gravity provides all the motion is ludicrous. Throw a hand up in the air and relax your arm. Watch just how slow it is to reverse direction at the top and how long it takes before it reaches a good speed on descent. In octaves, there is neither the time available between sounds nor adequate acceleration available from the necessary concise movement. Gravity doesn't generate enough speed in such a short distance of movement. Acceleration may be 9.81 m/s2 but the starter speed is zero. It takes time and distance of a fall to hit a large velocity. Neither is available in fast octaves and anyone who gets lost in this concept as an end in itself will fight an impossible battle.

For anyone who's interested, this post provides a simple practical illustration of how fundamentally essential it is to generate movement from the hand when playing octaves:

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/introduction-to-three-core-posts-on.html

I've recently discovered that the Liszt 6th rhapsody becomes possible without seizing up, if you get proper movement (rather than collapse or bracing) in the hand. Taubman can trigger this indirectly, but if you miss it, all the stuff about gravity leads nowhere. Frankly, their advice on octaves is pretty bog-standard stuff that virtually everyone has been saying for years. I'm not sure why some people think it's anything radical or remarkable- especially as they scarcely mention the single most important element in the mechanism. Without finger movement, octaves are a non starter.

One of the most important exercises is to drift slowly up with the wrist and to lengthen out the finger and thumb to lightly produce the octave. It involves minimal impact, because the arm is not crashing down. You can gradually build up to a healthy forte without any down from the arm. Only once the fingers can produce movement in this way does it also become possible to come down from above with the same lack of impact. Taubman starts from the end most likely to cause impact- and you see one hell of an impact when Golandsky demonstrates this on the film! I've rarely seen such a thud. Nothing like how Rubinstein could absorb the impact on landing- thanks to actually generating movement in his hand, rather than letting flop down lifelessly. It's far easier to start from down to up and then reverse it later.

[maitea]

Nyiregyhazi, thanks goodness for your post! Btw, great blog!

[nyiregyhazi]

Nyiregyhazi, thanks goodness for your post! Btw, great blog!

Cheers. Nice Mompou on youtube.

[chopin2015]

do you have a video of how you play the octaves? that could help formulate advice.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

do you have a video of how you play the octaves? that could help formulate advice.

Actually I took care of it lol.

I don't know how, but I got it now.