Action issues - need techincal advice...

[hbofinger]

I have a 1970 Yamaha C7 that was rebuilt in Japan in 2011. Though all of the visible felts look new (dampers, everything touching the strings, and so on), the action is original otherwise, and seems a bit heavy. I have posted about this before - I suspect I need to replace the knuckles on the hammer shanks, they are pretty grooved.

However, yesterday something unique happened: Middle C would not return full up right away, i.e. the key came up slowly when the damper pedal was pressed (i.e. weight of the damper was not assisting the return to the original position).

I pulled out the action, and for the fun of it swapped out the middle C hammer with the C# hammer, and it key worked properly. So I figured it is now time to do the  knuckles. Then I noticed something interesting: The shank was stiff to move in the flange, i.e. the center pin is tight. I read the if you hold the flange and wing the hammer, it should stop after about 7 swings. Well, it is not swinging!

So now I am beginning to think I might have to do the center pins. I ordered the tools and an assortment of pins (not very expensive), and I am in the process of getting new knuckles. But I am now beginning to wonder weather the overall heaviness of the action is caused by seizing center pins. Stiffness in the action has been getting stronger, not weaker, since I bought the piano.

Any ideas or advice?

[hfmadopter]

Obviously you will need to assess the rest of them and see if they are tight as well. If not, I would suggest to then re-pin what is and regulate the entire action and see what you get after that process is complete. Or you could try a little lube. It could also be that the action is a bit heavy anyway, in which case you could counter weight the keys if this is important to you. One tight shank doesn't constitute an overall heavy action though, IMO. NOt a comlete rebuild. Got to dig deeper and assess .

You would think since the piano was rebuilt in Japan they would have addressed things like loose shanks/knuckles. Who says they haven't already re-pinned it ? Maybe one is a bit tight. on anohter note, I'm sure Renner would be glad to provide you with complete replacement whippen assemblies ! After all, there are a lot more pins and springs in these assemblies than just knuckle pins. I think personally, I'd try a little lube first ( available from piano supply outfits).

[hbofinger]

Right, I ordered the lube already. Good point.

What I feel in the action is friction. Touchweight is right at 45 g measured, but it still feels heavy, so there is something going on with friction.

It's interesting: On our Audi, which has four cylinders, you have to do everything four times when you work on it. On our Benz, which has eight, you have to do everything eight times. On the Yamaha, if I'd redo it all, I'd have to do everything 88 times! 

[silverwoodpianos]

Any ideas or advice?

Yes. Regarding this part here;

I have a 1970 Yamaha C7 that was rebuilt in Japan in 2011. Though all of the visible felts look new (dampers, everything touching the strings, and so on), the action is original otherwise, and seems a bit heavy. I have posted about this before - I suspect I need to replace the knuckles on the hammer shanks, they are pretty grooved.

Apparently the action has not been rebuilt. Indeed if it had the knuckles would be new or look new with white powder on them.

However, yesterday something unique happened: Middle C would not return full up right away, i.e. the key came up slowly when the damper pedal was pressed (i.e. weight of the damper was not assisting the return to the original position).

I pulled out the action, and for the fun of it swapped out the middle C hammer with the C# hammer, and it key worked properly. So I figured it is now time to do the knuckles.

Knuckle condition has nothing to do with the free movement of action flanges.

Then I noticed something interesting: The shank was stiff to move in the flange, i.e. the center pin is tight. I read the if you hold the flange and wing the hammer, it should stop after about 7 swings. Well, it is not swinging!

So now I am beginning to think I might have to do the center pins. I ordered the tools and an assortment of pins (not very expensive), and I am in the process of getting new knuckles. But I am now beginning to wonder weather the overall heaviness of the action is caused by seizing center pins. Stiffness in the action has been getting stronger, not weaker, since I bought the piano.

Remove all of the friction previous to measuring down/up weight. Regarding  grand piano actions there are five center pins to deal with; hammer flange, jack flange, whippen flange, rep lever flange and damper underlever flange. That’s five times eighty-eight which is four hundred and forty flanges.

You will be busy… then measure your down/up.

[hbofinger]

Knuckle condition has nothing to do with the free movement of action flanges.

I know. That's why I am refining my diagnosis of what is going on. The action seemed stiff, and we (my technician and I) figured the knuckles, especially since we found they had been lubed before (graphite or something like that).

I never tried to "swing" the hammer until just now, when the c note would not return quickly enough. So now I have diagnosed a new problem.

My approach will be first to see if the right lube (from pianoworld) will loosen the flange/shank movement a bit. Try that first, then see what happens. I just figured out that of course with sticky center pins on the shank/flange the knuckle itself will get pounded harder, since the hammer is resisting travel. So the flange/shank movement, if improved and eased, might already make the entire piano feel better.

No, the action itself was not rebuilt. The damper section was completely redone, but the whippen, shank & flanges were not. The key bushings are new.

One last thing: What I call the "soundbox" of this piano is just amazing. It has a singing, strong tone with a powerful and distinguished bass. I never though I would buy a Yamaha, after having had Bösi and Blüthner. I measured the crown on it, and it is like new. 

You will be busy… then measure your down/up

My wife just left for Geneva for 12 days for work. So it is good to keep me busy...

[silverwoodpianos]

When dealing with a 43 yr old instrument I would expect c pin replacement. Dirt accumulations are impossible to prevent on permanent basis unfortunately. Also what may be found is the nickel plating of the c pin that locates inside the felt of the flange may be worn away.

At times, I have found, especially on older actions, where the c pins had been exhibiting performance problems, the players play harder, and the result is bent c. pins.
 
Do all the hammer flanges and see what you come up with following that.There would still be 11 days of playing time to discover more to do.

Best of luck

[hbofinger]

Silverwood - hey thanks! I am just waiting for the tools and parts to arrive. Will be an interesting project.

[hbofinger]

OK, action is now in pieces on my dining room table. Here is what I found:

1. Whippens - I swung the whippens along their mounting point and found no resistance. I unclipped the spring - free movement in the the rest of the mechanism. So far so good.

2. Key bushings - they are new. One sticky key that I need to adjust, everything else seems normal.

3. Hammer shanks and flanges - omg! I get no swings out of the middle C and other closeby hammers. I get five swings out of the bottom (A), and about three or four out of the top treble. There is no discoloration of the wood, so I suspect it is a pin/bushing issue. So I don't suspect verdigris.

I've seen the You-Tube video of doing this job correctly. I just want to go over the steps one more time, and hope to get some clarification:

a) when you pull through the bushing cloth, you are pulling it as far as it goes, i.e. you are basically filling the entire holes with fabric.

b) is cold Hide acceptable? I hear one person is even just using Elemer's white school glue or something like that. I don't really want to spend $100 on a glue heater.

c) so basic relationship is as such: The inside determines the pin size (i.e. so it does not wander). In many cases the inside is the shank, in my Yamaha's case the inside is the attachment to the rail, i.e. the flange.

d) the outside, i.e. where the cloth bushings are, determine the friction and swing. I.e. the most important two elements are to (1) find a pin that won't wander and stays solidly in the flange (with Yamaha, the inside is the flange), and (2) using the right tool set, which I have ordered, to bore a hole into the cloth in the outer holes to achieve just the right friction. And - I am looking for about 9 swings on the bottom, heavier hammers, 7 in the middle, and about 5 on the top.

And - I get to become a real expert, because I GET TO DO THIS 88 TIMES! 

(p.s. I am an economist by profession...)

[lhorwinkle]

If you care about your piano, get a technician to do the work. This is not a job for someone learning how.

If you still feel like doing the work, please ask the (inevitable) technician how much more it's costing you to have him repair your work than it would have been to simply have had him do the repairs from the outset.

[hbofinger]

If you care about your piano, get a technician to do the work. This is not a job for someone learning how.

If you still feel like doing the work, please ask the (inevitable) technician how much more it's costing you to have him repair your work than it would have been to simply have had him do the repairs from the outset.

That is not so much a helpful answer. However, considering your concern, I have located a junked action to practice this job on first. Considering this, then, it would be better, though, if the specific technical questions I have asked are being answered.

[silverwoodpianos]

I suspected there would be this kind of trouble with a misunderstanding.

The problem is not the bushing cloth it is the center pins.  There is no need to replace the felt bushings.

The center pins need to be removed and then the inside of the existing felt bushing reamed out slightly….then a new larger center pins is installed.

The center pin must be tight in the bird’s eye but allow the bushed flange to rotate around the pin.

Five swings are fine.

I’ll bet when the pins are removed around middle C if you roll them on a table they will be bent.

[hbofinger]

Hi Silverwood,

Thanks for this. I was suspecting the bushing might have to be replace too, but considering your advice, I will go for the pins first and not worry about the bushings.

You have clarified exactly what I was thinking: The fit between the bushing and the pin determine the friction of movement, and the the tightness of the center (in this case the flange) holds the pin in place.

Will update on finding bent pins...

[silverwoodpianos]

If the bushing is still all the way around the hole then ream only….carefully remove material slowly…

Usually with the reamer you ream a half size under, for example if the pins coming out are 21 and you ream out the dirt then a 23 should fit tight in the BUSHED FLANGE.

You might have to ream the bird’s eye a bit. Just enough to get the pin to travel through or the hole will be too big and then you are chasing sizes between the bird’s eye and the flange.

What I do is install the new pin through the hammer butt, and then size both sides of the flange to that, mount the flange over the butt, grip the long end of the pin with pliers and swing the hammer. If you get enough swings cut off the end.

[hbofinger]

Silverwood: You know, I just located a donor action for $20. Full set of a shot upright from 1906. I will practice on this first. I am picking up the action tomorrow. I will try to get a touch for this, and I know I will be dealing with older wood than I have now.

Thank you for your very helpful and friendly advice.

[iansinclair]

Silverwood's kind of kindly advice is one of the reasons this forum is so wonderful!

And aren't you having fun?!

[hbofinger]

Silverwood's kind of kindly advice is one of the reasons this forum is so wonderful!

And aren't you having fun?!

Actually, you are 100% on target. This is a GREAT site. I tell people (fellow pianists) about it all the time. And it's not just instruments. The playing and performing section is great.

I spend a little time on Pianoworld, but my main site where I spend the most time (and pay for membership) is pianostreet.

[keys60]

hi guys. I haven't been stopping by as frequently so I am so pleased to come across this thread, especially when Dan Silverwood generously shares his advice.

I've rebushed flanges before. I don't consider it fun because I'm no the most patient person in the world and could wind up cracking the flange. You don't bore the felt. You roll it, make a tube of sorts and thread it through the flange hole.  I'd rather purchase a pre bushed flange.

Dan is right.  Your flange pins are more than like not round anymore and probably gunked up with pollution.  9 swings? That's a lot. I go for 3.5 to 4 swings. If I'm close with a little more, up to 5, I won't split hairs.

All of your keys are rebushed? I sounds like you've done a good job finding the pivot points where your sticking problems lie, but I've seen some sloppy key bushings before. They could be respaced need be.

Also, If you want to save some time and money on the bushings (since you said they are well worn) they cant be what I call bolstered. Get a ball of white yarn and thread it through a good sized needle, leaving 2 equal strands. Gently thread the yarn through the knuckle under the hide, right below the flat contact point.
Cut the excess on both sides of the knuckle with a razor, careful not to cut the knuckle. You can quickly burn any further excess wool with a lighter. It is important that the yarn is completely flush with the sides of the knuckle. Voila. Round knuckles. I can do 88 in an hour and change. Then I clean and lube the surface with teflon powder. This procedure works great and is very cost and time effective.

Thanks for the enjoyable and informative thread, gentlemen. Please write on!

[hbofinger]

This is really interesting!

My parts have arrived today, and the pinning tools. But my reamers have not yet. For the fun of it, I started messing with my "donor" action, i.e. the action that I bought fro $20 that dates back to 1906 and has the same problem.

It became obvious, after two hammers, that without the reamer the re-pinning exercise is worthless. Kudos to Silverwood who said I need to do this.

But here is the killer: I got some piano action lube in this same shipment from International Piano Supply. I tired this on three hammers of my 1906 junk action, and guess what! I am back to exactly 7 swings!

This may not be a permanent fix, but it is non-invasive. So my question is if I try this on the real action, am I doing any harm? I know I will eventually have to re-pin, and that the lube wears off. But I am just amazed at what it did to the donor hammers. The product I am using is International Piano Supply's Piano Action Lube.

[hbofinger]

UPDATE:

The action is back in the piano. I've got every hammer to seven swings, though I did different things: Some shanks became just right with some exercise and a touch of action lube, others did not. Those (about half) I repinned. There were no bent pins, and no discoloration on the pins. It all seems to have to do with the bushings. Interestingly middle C had a unique problem: the pin was so seized in the bushing that the birdseye was rotating around the pin, rather than seizing the pin and the the pin rotating in the bushing.

There were many, many hammers that could not manage beyond two swings. Then there were some, in the bass, I did not even need to touch, they were still there. Almost the entire upper treble needed to be repinned.

I used the Don Mamino type broaches. In many cases just going up one size in pin I already got the broaching/reaming pin size fit right. I "practiced" doing this on my junked action several times over before I touched the real action.

I put the action back into the piano. For the first time I was able to play pianissimo. I noticed an overall warmer sound, more round, also less brilliant. This could be in part because I have to re-allign exactly where the hammer hits the string, a project I will take on tomorrow perhaps.

[hfmadopter]

Excellent news ! Yes, certainly you will need to center the hammers to the strings. I imagine they need voicing as well.

[johnmar78]

Hobofingers, here is the link for Yamaha grand action adjustment from Youtube, apprently he is a Yamaha technician.

there are more stuff like voicing the hammers that you can find it all on the Youtube, I found these are very useful. Hope this helps

[hbofinger]

Excellent news ! Yes, certainly you will need to center the hammers to the strings. I imagine they need voicing as well.

Fortunately not. They have been shaped and voice in the rebuild last year. They did everything, bushings & all that, but skipped the center pins (whippens are original but just fine). The rest of the piano is like new, including the finish. The only thing I am still concerned  about are the knuckles....

[silverwoodpianos]

Fortunately not. They have been shaped and voice in the rebuild last year. They did everything, bushings & all that, but skipped the center pins (whippens are original but just fine). The rest of the piano is like new, including the finish. The only thing I am still concerned  about are the knuckles....

When the hammer line is disturbed by removal it is best to lightly take out the hammer lines and mate the heads to the strings.

Regarding the knuckles they can also be shaped and voiced with the needles along with lubrication, but some knowledge is required for the process.

Photo of the knuckle condition please….

[hbofinger]

Photo of the knuckle condition please….

Thanks again for all of your support and help!

I will upload photos as soon as I open her up again in the next couple of days. Right now I have to catch up with my other duties.... I'd say latest by the end of this week.

[hbofinger]

Knuckles up close. The first one on the second image shows the groove the best...





Thanks!

[silverwoodpianos]

Wire brush them up and lubricate with Teflon. The knuckles don’t look too flat on that end although the bottom end of the keyboard does not get as much use as the 5-6th octave.

The outer buckskin should look asymmetrical. When the material at the contact point on the rep lever is less than half the material on the side of the knuckle they should be replaced.

Also do a coat of Acheson Dag on the rep lever and the jack top.

[hbofinger]

Wire brush them up and lubricate with Teflon. The knuckles don’t look too flat on that end although the bottom end of the keyboard does not get as much use as the 5-6th octave.

The outer buckskin should look asymmetrical. When the material at the contact point on the rep lever is less than half the material on the side of the knuckle they should be replaced.

Also do a coat of Acheson Dag on the rep lever and the jack top.

Thanks - I will follow your advice. I was already thinking, though, if I DID need to replace them, if I shouldn't go with a whole new set of shanks by WNG? This whole carbon-fiber thing is looking extremely interesting....

[silverwoodpianos]

If you are going to change out the top end then it is hammers, shanks, flanges, and knuckles.

Then full regulation to make the parts fit and work together.

Right now you have to option of reworking the old parts and seeing how they come up. If you are not satisfied then make changes.

Always good to mess around with old parts that are worthless anyways. Much more difficult to make old parts work properly.

The only comment I have to make regarding modern materials used in piano action is, the most prestigious action maker in the world, Renner, does not use those materials. Think about why this is so.

[hbofinger]

The only comment I have to make regarding modern materials used in piano action is, the most prestigious action maker in the world, Renner, does not use those materials. Think about why this is so.

You know, I was thinking about that two, especially me being German and all that. Mason & Hamlin is offering the WNG at a surcharge over the Renners, but, hey, that is a U.S. brand.

Then I found out that Steingraeber is offering them too. And then I find German tinkerers using them on Hamburgs. Not to mention Feurich...

It's an open issue. I contacted M&H to find a local dealer, and try a piano with the shanks/action installed. If I was going to do anything, it would only be the shanks.

One question though: What can you tell me about Isaac Candenza hammers?

I really enjoy this exchange, and highly value your advice.

[hbofinger]

Addendum - Someone else I know and trust shares the wood view. So I will try to make these work, and if not, go replacement wood, perhaps Tokima, bearing other recommendations. THANKS!

[silverwoodpianos]

I purchased a set of Tokiwa shanks for a restoration job here and was satisfied with the quality.
 
 On the Cradenza hammers, I haven’t tried them on a project here yet.  I have heard good reports and not so good reports which simply reinforces my opinion that piano parts are just that, parts.

The knowledge of the restorer on how the parts are installed and manipulated to receive the desired result is the often misunderstood part of the equation.

[hbofinger]

The knowledge of the restorer on how the parts are installed and manipulated to receive the desired result is the often misunderstood part of the equation.

Right, hammer position on the shank, fit, trimming, and all of that...

I am still having a challenge realigning my old hammers to their original position. The action, though, feels a ton better.

Curious though: When I was counting swings, I counted each change in direction as a swing, and aimed for exactly 7 consistently throughout the keyboard, with the hammer resting where it would if it would swing freely. Now I see Renner suggesting 4 to 6 in a writeup I found. Reblitz in his book says 5 to 6. Afleck Piano's repair and rebuild manual states 7, as do most postings here. Huh?

Also, if you use a gram gauge, and you go consistently for 2 grams, would it not mean that the bottom would swing more, and the top less?

[silverwoodpianos]

I don't use a gram gauge. Four swings is fine. Books are guidelines only, as every instrument is an individual case and must be judged on its own merits or lack thereof.

[hbofinger]

I don't use a gram gauge. Four swings is fine. Books are guidelines only, as every instrument is an individual case and must be judged on its own merits or lack thereof.

The good news is the action now feels more like a racehorse - I have never been able to play this fast on it, with that much control. So I must have fixed something.

[silverwoodpianos]

That is correct; you are releasing the friction and allowing the parts to move freely, but with control.

One of the most important things about a properly regulated grand action is the fact that pianissimo is effortless.

With an action all gummed up with dirt and verdigris this makes some keyboard performance requirements problematic.

When you have repaired center pins over forty years as I have you get to know how much friction is acceptable by the feel of the flanges.

[hbofinger]

Silverwood - thanks for your very sincere support! This has been a real learning experience. Of course, as I dig furthet, I see new issues on this 40 year old action. Another thing I have not confessed to yet - I am getting pretty good at making bushings, on the junk action. But I now think the longer term solution on the real beast is flange/shank replacement, believe it or not, keeping the old hammers (happy with them, they seem to have been reshaped well.) . I just don't see myself reworking those knuckles, which have been obviuosly messed with previously. Even my tech agrees they have been messed with.


Today I received four Tokima samples. I see already that my pinning excercise will be of enourmous value - I will have to tighten them. I think, though, within the next year I will reshank.

With me there is a principle: I once owned an airplane, and I worked on it myself, under proper supervision to keep safe & legal, because I wanted to underrstand my machine. I keep and maintain both of our cars - not to save money (I pay rent for my own workshop, since we live in townhouse in the middle of a city), but becauser I want to underrstand them. Same with my main musical instrument. There is a deep need to uderstand what it is doing, and what I should know to do...