Chopin Etude opus 10 N9

[steven]

Hello,

can anybody help me how to study the left hand of this etude ? Chopin opus 10-9
I have big hands so now I start with 521212 - 551515, this is the first mesure of the left hand.
I think I can get it up speed like this but i'm not sure.
Anyone suggestions ?

thx
Steven

[allchopin]

Whoa, whoa...  how did you come up with this fingering?  That's awful, skipping your pinky in the second set.  If you have big hands, you should be using 531313 531313.  Some use 4 instead but I haven't found a need.  The important thing is to bring out the thumb and the melody together as sort of a counterpoint excercise.

[steven]

allchopin,

I get it not in my hands. The left hand seems very difficult. Have you tips ?
thx

[bernhard]

Yes. Allchopin is right. The fingering you are using is terrible.

However I will suggest that you do not use 531 either.

Chopin's own fingering is 541414 throughout. How can that be? This seems to require an impossible stretch of 54. I will come back to it in a moment.

If you decide not to use Chopin's fingering you can try Cortot's:

[531413][531413]

It will require a very different movement form Chopin's and a more difficult co-ordination (but not impossible).

However I believe Chopin was after a particular movement. And it is only with this movement that the LH will be easy, In fact it will be easier than any other alternative fingering.

Now comes the problem. If I could show this movement to you in a fraction of a second you would be able to do it perfectly. But I cannot show it to you, so I have to describe it in writing. You may or may not get what I am describing, or you may get the completely wrong thing. Also not everyone knows about this movement and prefer to use Cortot's fingering - which allows for a very different movement.

So.

Hold your left hand in front of you. The fingers are  all on the same plane. Use the RH thumb and index finger to stretch apart the LH 4th and 5th finger (gently). You will not get too far. And if you try to do the same stretch without aid from the RH is even worse. So how are you going to stretch the 4th finger all the way to C while you are still with the 5th finger on F? And if you do that for the whole etude, you will not get halfway.

The solution is the plane you are doing the stretch. If you now hold your LH sideways (thumb up - palm towards you) and press the little finger on F while stretching the fingers (still thumb up) in a 90 degrees plane, it will be a piece of cake: easy stretch and no tiredness at all. As you stretch the 4th finger (hand still sideways thumb up), let the hand "fall" to the right (palm down) and proceed with the broken chord.

Did you get that? You are not really stretching the 4th finger at all. You are simply bending it at the knuckle joint, but because of the sideways position of the hand it easily reaches the C. Then all you do is "tranfer" the weight of the hand by rotating the hand so that the palm is down.

Try it. If it is difficult you are doing the wrong movement. The actual movement is a beauty of comfort, ease and elegance.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[steven]

Yep, i think I(ve got it.
It a bit funny to see, but it's working....!!! Not at performing speed but that will come.
the distance from F to C is 9,5 cm (middle of the key); When I do like a normal stretch I have only 7 cm. With the plan i have 8,(. So when I can take the leftside of the keys I even have "room left". Let bring on the F to D stretch !!

thanks
again

[bernhard]

Yep, i think I(ve got it.
It a bit funny to see, but it's working....!!! Not at performing speed but that will come.
the distance from F to C is 9,5 cm (middle of the key); When I do like a normal stretch I have only 7 cm. With the plan i have 8,(. So when I can take the leftside of the keys I even have "room left". Let bring on the F to D stretch !!

thanks
again

Exactly! Once you get the "right" movement it becomes easy.

I believe it is quite important to stick to Chopin's fingerings because they imply the movement. Chopin's technique was mostly self-taught - it was completley different from the techniques of his contemporaries. You cannot play Chopin's pieces with the techniques of his contemporaries (which is what Czerny and Hanon develop). Chopin wrote the etudes to show this new way of moving. So you must look at Chopin;s fingerings and figure out which movement makes them not only possible but easy.

Good luck

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[allchopin]

Hmm, well, if it's still very difficult with 531313 then yes you should resort to 541414.  53 came naturally to me so I guess I just assumed it might with someone else with big hands.
As for bending the 4th finger sideways when depressing the key, I can't imagine this being good for the joint.  The finger isn't made to be pressed this direction, so I would think soreness would build up after time using this tecnique.

[seepiano]

If I understand what Bernhard said correctly. The movement are the same as what my piano teacher ask me to do. Well, I did do that for a while and I hurt my little pinky. We don't know the main reason for that, since my pinkies are not normal as usual. They curl inward a bit.

Then we tried fingering 5313131 instead, but I used different motion than 5414141 to avoid playing with the picky sideway. Third finger act like a pivot. Also, I cheated by using right hand in some parts. 

Too, bad I quited the lesson before we make the piece perfect.

[bernhard]

Hmm, well, if it's still very difficult with 531313 then yes you should resort to 541414.  53 came naturally to me so I guess I just assumed it might with someone else with big hands.
As for bending the 4th finger sideways when depressing the key, I can't imagine this being good for the joint.  The finger isn't made to be pressed this direction, so I would think soreness would build up after time using this tecnique.

No, no, no!

Allchopin, you got it completely wrong (not your fault – it is very difficult to describe this  in writing)

You do not bend the 4th finger sideways at all. You bend it in the most natural way, forward at the knuckle joint. There is absolutely no way this is going to be bad for the joint because it is the natural joint movement. It is exactly the way the finger is meant to be bent. It is your hand that is sideways, not the finger.

I will try again. There are two different movements that must be co-ordinated:

First movement:

1.   Put your left hand on a table, sideways, finger pointing forward, thumb up, palm facing to the right (inside), in a karate chop position.

2.   Now, let the hand “fall” to the right, so that now the palm is on the table.

3.   So you start from a somewhat unusual position (for playing the piano) - but not unnatural or uncomfortable at all – and let the hand fall to the usual playing position. The little finger remains at the same spot on the table as the forearm does a half rotation (through gravity). If you repeat this movement, your hand will look like a door opening and closing, the hinges being at the little finger.

Got that?

Second movement:

1.   Put your hand on the table in a karate chop position as before.

2.   Now bend your fingers at the knuckle joint – that is, bring your fingers towards the palm (the movement harp players do). This is completely natural and what people normaly do with their fingers: they bend them at the knuckle joint. There is no “sideways bend” at all.

3.   Now do this bending of the fingers at the knuckle joint, but keep your little finger straight: that is, fingers 234 bend but finger 5 remains straight on the table. You will see that the tip of finger 4 now reaches quite a long way from finger 5, and that the fingers 4 and 5 are at 90 degrees to each other, both on their sides. If instead of a table you were doing this at the piano, finger 5 would be well into the key (lying straight on its side) while the tip of finger 4 (bent at the knuckle and also on its side at 90 degrees to finger 4) would be near the edge of the key.

Got that?

Now we must combine both movements:

1.   Start with the hand in karate chop position.
 
2.   As you turn the hand to piano playing position (as a door closing), bend fingers 234 at the knuckle joint (in the natural direction of the joint).

3.   Use the turning of the hand to transfer weight from finger 5 to finger 4.

4.   Calibrate the bending at the knuckle to give you the correct distance between the keys.

That’s it!

This is actually a completely natural movement. The only unusual thing (for a pianist trained in Kalkbrenner’s way of playing – at the time of Chopin) would be to start with the hand sideways. But in my opinion, to teach this new (in Chopin’s time) movement is one of the main purposes of this etude. Evidence for this is the fact that Chopin went to pains to indicate the fingering 54 (usually Chopin does not indicate fingering), and the only way to play the LH with fingers 54 is to use the movement above.

I hope this is clearer now.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[steven]

Bernard, Allchopin,

I made a small video (3MB) of the movement as I think it is. It takes only 3 seconds.
I don't want to put something wrong on the forum so you should check first.
But, i do not know how you can put a file on the internet, i do not have webspace or so.
I only know mail and dropload (www.dropload.com) to send large files to someone.

Steven

[seepiano]

Hi, Steven, I would like to see the video too. What I have to do at dropload, sign up for that?

Bernhard, I think I got what you are tring to say at your first post. However,  pinky has to play sideway, right? Can the pinky support the weight at its sideway especially when we have to put more weight to bring out the bass notes?

[allchopin]

Bernhard:
No, I understand/ood what you are saying.  What I mean by bending the finger sideways is that when you depress the key, you are putting pressure on that joint in a sideways force.  I.e., take a finger and bend it 90 deg.  Now, turn the hand 90 deg. so that the bent finger now points sideways (or at some oblique angle, as if playing the piano in this method you describe).  When you press a key, that finger is now taking a work load at the angle the joint now sits, which is not straight down and, I feel, potentially harmful.  If you exaggerated this movement, and pressed on your finger to add even more force, your finger would collapse and dislocate.  Ouch...
Another thing to consider was that actions then were much lighter and so practicing this method probably wouldn't do much to hurt the hands - contortions were a little more acceptable.  Now, after an hour on a Steinway, you'll feel when something is wrong!

[steven]

No, i just need your email. But I want bernhard to check if it's ok.

Steven

[cellodude]

No, i just need your email. But I want bernhard to check if it's ok.

Steven

This is just great! I have also just started to learn this piece. It looks easy at first glance but the LH needs a lot of work HS. I don't have problems with the first phrase. I use [531313] [531313] but in the second phrase I use [531313] [531515] [5...]. This is slightly akward and I will try Bernhard's method (Chopin's fingering). So I will send you my e-mail via PM. I will check it out once B. gives his stamp of approval.

I actually find it easier than the Op. 25 No. 1 that I just finished learning. I can play it (25/1) at speed without mistakes usually but I guess I need to be able to play it 10 times in a row without mistakes before I can say I've really learnt it huh?

Regards,

dennis lee

[cellodude]

No, i just need your email. But I want bernhard to check if it's ok.

Steven

This is just great! I have also just started to learn this piece. It looks easy at first glance but the LH needs a lot of work HS. I don't have problems with the first phrase. I use [531313] [531313] but in the second phrase I use [531313] [531515] [5...]. This is slightly akward and I will try Bernhard's method (Chopin's fingering). So I will send you my e-mail via PM. I will check it out once B. gives his stamp of approval.

I actually find it easier than the Op. 25 No. 1 that I just finished learning. I can play it (25/1) at speed without mistakes usually but I guess I need to be able to play it 10 times in a row without mistakes before I can say I've really learnt it huh?

Regards,

dennis lee

Just a little errata on my post earlier today. I'm at home now and have the score with me. I use [531313] [531313] for the beginning of both the first and second phrase. It is at the end of the second phrase at bar 8 ( F B natural D flat B natural ...) that I use the [531313] [531515] [5...] fingering.

But earlier tonight, I put in some practice and used Bernhard's method and LOVED it! I'm going to practise that from now on. However, I'm still not able to find a suitable fingering for bar 8. Any suggestions other than the [531313] [531515] [5...] fingering? Using the fourth finger didn't help.

I have the Edition Peters version of the Etudes and they only have the 531313 fingering. I guess the editors have not caught on to the lesson Chopin was teaching in that etude.

TTFN (Ta Ta For Now),

dennis lee