Chopin - Ballade No. 1 in g minor, Op 23 (Work in progress)

[perfect_pitch]

Greetings folks...

Hoping to get a little help mainly on my phrasing this time for this work (and also maybe the use of the pedal if you think there's anything iffy there.) I know in parts this is a little slow and the technical work is a little bad in parts, but I literally only began practicing this piece starting late last week. I was supposed to be doing the 4th Ballade, but my teacher suggested I switch to this one.

If I'm doing something INCREDIBLY wrong, please tell me. Again, I'm trying to get this piece semi-performable before I catch up with my piano teacher in a few weeks time.

[austinarg]

You achieved this in only one week? Sorry, but I can't buy it.

[peter68]

Your playing of this piece is very good. I think your tempo is about right too. I think the slowish tempo at the beginning is excellent before the build-up later. Would you mind reviewing my recording of the Chopin Nocturne Op.9 No.2. Thanks Peter

[chopin2015]

I think you are missing a note in the arpeggios. the ones on the 3rd page, ya? Also, your voicing in the valse part in the beginning...think it through. Im talking about the chords, make sure you hit all the notes at the same time. practice execution. I have a problem with those chords as well. Also, you can use more bass! Good luck! have you practiced the coda? I voice some chords differently there because I learnt it wrong and mostly by ear! haha!

 You did a nice job on the ornate part (the little notes). The tempo is well executed! keep up the good work!!

[perfect_pitch]

You achieved this in only one week? Sorry, but I can't buy it.

Not quite... I studied this in the past (2006) albeit badly however, and left it as the decayed ruins of Chopin that I left it as. Good thing about having perfect pitch however, is you never forget the notes (or anything for that matter), so I spent all of last Friday and yesterday (Thursday) practicing the crap out of this piece (about 8 hours each day).

In fact my memory was so great, I had memorised some wrong notes and had to correct them when going back to the music.

@chopin2015 If I did forget a note, that was just a slip of the fingers then. And you're right - that valse sequence is hard, but I'm also trying to experiment with a little pedal but not to much to make it sound smushy. I've done a little bit of the coda - what you hear is what I've done, but I might be using a different edition to you. I'm using the Henle Urtext edition.

[chopin2015]

Ok but that note you missed is important, it changes the fingering on the descend...i think. Even if it doesnt...its still hard! Haha  Just check it through dude!  

[perfect_pitch]

Ok but that note you missed is important, it changes the fingering on the descend...i think. Even if it doesnt...its still hard! Haha  Just check it through dude! 

Not really... I use the third finger on the B flat going up anyway, so it doesn't matter for me.

And don't worry - I'm not even close to finished with this piece. I intend to practice it for as long as it takes until I can get it seriously polished.

[chopin2015]

Not really... I use the third finger on the B flat going up anyway, so it doesn't matter for me.

And don't worry - I'm not even close to finished with this piece. I intend to practice it for as long as it takes until I can get it seriously polished.

Ok! Good luck, you are doing great! If you have any questions, let me know!

[pianoman53]

You need to listen more in the opening, the arpeggio is supposed come from the c, not as something different. Also, you need more pedal when it turns. It's such a high register, so it will manage.

Just check the voicing of the chords in the waltz, cause they are a bit uneven. I prefer top note, but I know others who prefer different. Just make up your mind, and make sure they are all the same.

In general, you need more pedal, actually. It sounds way too dry.

Before the second theme, you need to listen to the horns and not to the fast notes. I know it's a new piece, but try to do it as soon as you can. Also, the left hand in the second theme can be way more polyphonic than you play it.

Personally, I don't like when the first theme, the second time it comes, is played rubato. The repeated low note is a sort of clock that "symbolizes time". If you mess with the rhythm, the low note will lose its point.

You also need to phrase the fast notes more. It's sounds mechanical. Generally, when something goes down, the dymanics does the same. Not all notes should be equally loud.

That's it for now. Maybe I come up with more things later. Good job in short time though

[perfect_pitch]

Hey Guys - definitely some good food for thought. As I said, I played this back a long while ago, but it was rife with bad technique back then (this was before my current teacher), so I'm still ironing out a few bad habits.

Also, quite a few good points from piano man... thanks. Will definitely look the music over and try to incorporate a few changes. Usually I'm the sort of person who uses too much pedal (or I have been in the past), but this time I'm actually using basically only the pedal written in the urtext edition... which is basically Chopins pedalling. That I'm not sure if I want to change though... My teacher did recommend sticking to his pedalling, and I am learning this for a piano competition in the future.

[pianoman53]

I actually like that you don't crazy overpedal it, like to many pianists do. However, it was a different instrument. I talked to a few teachers - students of students of Chopin - and they say that you have to pedal a bit more than written. In the beginning for example, you can change on every chord. In that way one will hear the silence between the notes, but not a la bach.
I'm fortunate enough to study in a school with a very good "old music"-department. Therefore, we have sometimes classes on historical instruments. It's amazing how much less pedal one can use in some parts.

If you have the possibility, I would try to find someone who plays on an, say, Erard. You could even youtube it, to find out how it sounds.
 

[perfect_pitch]

Okay... I overlooked the differences between Chopins piano and our modern day piano.

I wasn't too sure about the rests in the first section as I didn't want it to sound too segmented, but I'll definitely play about with it. I'll have a look for a recording on an erard piano, though I must confess, I've never heard the model before - so I'm intrigued.   

[chopin2015]

Just listen to Zimmerman

[jollisg]

You play this piece really nice! I have studied it myself (and still do, I don't think one can ever "finish" a piece). There were just a few things I thought of. It's not things that you do wrong, but things I thought of. Of course you can decide if you want to listen to my advice or not!

In the opening there is a long tie over the phrases (sorry if that sentence came out strange, english isn't my native language). I interpret that as that it should be played legato/legatissimo. Of course that is just my opinion and interpretation, and you have your own. I just wanted to throw out that thought

From bar 91, it sounds like you try to make that nice voice (Db, Cb, Bb) stand out. If I were you, I would practice that just a tiny bit more to get it closer to "perfection" (so it sounds more like its own melody, not just notes that it brought out). It's not that often I can hear that voice being played clear, so I get a wow-sensation when I hear a pianist bringing it out.

In the coda, about 9 bars after the "presto con fuoco", I would have liked the left hand's lower notes to be brought out more.

Good job with this piece. It is really wonderful, right?

[perfect_pitch]

Just listen to Zimmerman

Yeah, but the last thing we want is every pianist on the planet copying Zimmerman... kind of kills creativity, but I get what you're trying to say.

Thanks Jollisg... In my urtext edition however (in terms of the slurs, not ties, I think you meant) I do believe I played the phrasing that Chopin wrote. He generally only has one dotted minim slurred to the next, in more cases.

Yeah - I was trying to bring out the Db, Cb, B... Will work on that.

OOOH - More Bass in the Coda section - challenge accepted. My main concern was trying to get the pedalling clear in that section - so I know I've got far more to go.

[chopin2015]

Yeah, but the last thing we want is every pianist on the planet copying Zimmerman... kind of kills creativity, but I get what you're trying to say.

Thanks Jollisg... In my urtext edition however (in terms of the slurs, not ties, I think you meant) I do believe I played the phrasing that Chopin wrote. He generally only has one dotted minim slurred to the next, in more cases.

Yeah - I was trying to bring out the Db, Cb, B... Will work on that.

OOOH - More Bass in the Coda section - challenge accepted. My main concern was trying to get the pedalling clear in that section - so I know I've got far more to go.

Im just saying he plays a good Chopin. You can play weird psychedelic chopin for yourself but there is a professionalism issue otherwise.

[emill]

hello P_P!!

Despite my preference for the final portion to be a bit more faster in tempo, I would gladly give my enthusiastic clapping on your level of playing despite having resurrected this piece from 2006 with only 2 days of 8-hour practice!  WOW!! 

[perfect_pitch]

Hey Emill...

Thanks... I would have spent more on it, but the other days I'm working on other pieces, but my goal is to hopefully get about 90 mins of repertoire ready to perform for early next year (despite my full-time work). The Chopin will be one of those pieces, and as well as the pieces in my signature and Brahms Piano Concerto No. 1

Also... when my internet isn't as slow as a snail - I'll have a look at Enzo's Bartok piece, and try and give a few comments. I'm learning the first Dance only, but it's a fantastic piece.

[birba]

Good beginning.  I liked the ascending passage - maybe a bit more pedal (butterfly).  In measure 4, more ad libitum.  Those first five notes are no more than an expressive turn on the f#-  Give it more direction, going to the e-flat.  Agosti made a sharp observation once.  Mm. 3 to the g in mm 9, is a florid descending g minor scale.  Give it that direction.
The problem with the opening, and I'm sure you're aware of this because you asked about phrasing,  is that there's no movement.  No direction.  Every note of the melody is precisely the same sound.  And the harmonies of the left hand are far too piano, in comparision.  You can barely hear them at times.  What you have to do is take the melody and practise it with both hands, an octave apart.  Every note has a specific purpose, so they can't all be the same color or sound.  Exaggerate the up and downs of the melody - big crescendos and big diminuendos within the melodic line.  Once you've gotten what you want, play it with one hand.  Still exaggerating.  Then add the left hand and let it work WITH the melody - that means following the same colors, not just a pianissimo background.
Make those french horn calls in mm. 56, 60, and 64 more prominent.  Albeit in gradual diminuendo.
I liked the meno allegro section.  You have the right idea and I'm sure when you've studied it longer, the finer points will come through.  (ex. the ritardando and dimuendo at the end)
Help those octave passages by beginning more piano and slightly slower - the resulting crescendo and accelerando make them exciting.
At the più animato section, at this slower speed you're playing at, exaggerate the direction of the line by exaggerating dim. and cresc.  Besides Chopin's indications, there are other places that you can toy with.  for example at measure 130, start piano and work gradually up to the climax in 136, and then diminuendo those two bars.
Then the waltz bit.  You have to hear 1 m, 1m, 2 mm, 1 m, 1m, 2 measures. And you get that by using crescendo and diminuendo.
This is getting very complicated trying to put these things in words.  But anyway...I Liked the meno mosso section.  It had direction.
I'm sure you're going to do the coda very well.  But it's important at this speed, to play with the same intentions as the final product.  That is with the same colors, stentatos, rit., etc.  I don't know how you can go to the final interpretation without being able to do it slow.  I mean, how can your fingers respond at a quick tempo if they haven't been taught at a slow tempo.  well, I guess some geniuses can.  You have to do Slow-motion playing now, not slow excercise playing.
anyway, I've gone on long enough.  You've got a good basis for a fine performance.

[dcstudio]

Let me take this opportunity to apologize -- think I misjudged you perfect__pitch.  Don't know if that's quite ready to convince a Nazi officer to give you the coat of his back...lol... but I know that soon it will be.  Nice to know that there are advanced students on this site who can back up their statements.   

thanks for posting--you have received some worthy suggestions in this string as well    I thought the intro was beautiful--please post the finished work. 

[perfect_pitch]

Wow... definitely some good criticism there Birba - thanks. This piece is definitely early stages, and will be learning the piece over the year with several others, so be sure in the knowledge that I do expect to get this piece to a very highly performable and formidable playing. I'm in the early days right now. Just getting my fingers round the notes.

Took me a minute to get the reference DCStudio... Believe me, I will. I've got a couple more weeks of holidays, which I might upload one more practice recording, then spend the school term practicing before I upload another recording in about April/May.