Stage fright,

[muleski]

Hello, I'm pretty new on here, so not familiar with anyone.

Anyway.. I say 'stage fright', but really I mean terror of playing in front of people generally (even the family).

I'm 34 and have recently (well about 4 months ago) taken piano back up after not having had a piano since I was about 14.  I had a few lessons as a kid, mixed with self teaching but decided against going in for exams, due to zero self-discipline & not being pushed into it either. I'm taking lessons now, but not going for exams.  I'm pretty much just learning pieces I like & have probably gone in over my head but I love playing so much and can't bear to learn easy & boring pieces which I wouldn't even want to listen to anyway.  What I'm learning is difficult but I'm really enjoying it & love playing in isolation. 

Playing alone is when I really enjoy it & often involuntarily shut my eyes & really feel the music.  At the same time, I secretly would love to be able to play in front of anyone (because I don't think I'm that bad) without feeling utterly self concious & terrified of making mistakes so they think I'm rubbish.  I hate making mistakes in front of people.

What I experience when I play in front of people (including my teacher, but to a lesser extent in front of her), is physical shaking, I rush the piece, I lose the 'feeling of being lost in the music', which to me is manifested in the music, because I can feel their eyes on me & I can feel the silent scrutiny (even if it's someone who I know well & wouldn't think bad of me anyway).  Essentially, it makes me impotent to know anyone is listening/watching me play and I can't think of anything I can do to get past this barrier.  Needless to say, my playing really suffers.


This is not confined to music & my inability to 'perform'.  This is something that affects pretty much every aspect of my life.  But I was just wondering if anyone else is like this with performing and if so have you found that anything you did has improved the situation for you?

Thanks for reading!

[p2u_]

This is not confined to music & my inability to 'perform'.  This is something that affects pretty much every aspect of my life.  But I was just wondering if anyone else is like this with performing and if so have you found that anything you did has improved the situation for you?

I work with pianists of all levels to help them overcome stage fright or performance anxiety. There are different aspects to this and I can only give you some general guidelines.

1) Giving yourself negative commands (for example: "relax") is NOT going to help you get rid of this. What helps is to gradually replace negative mindsets with positive ones.

2) Second, you should ask yourself why you focus on yourself and not on the activity you have to do in front of people. You don't have to answer that question here. It's enough to realize that feeling either superior or inferior before other people is litterally wasted energy and very destructive. You cannot really impress people with what you do anyway when you are so focused on yourself.

3) Most of what you experience during performance is conditioned during practice. You should program yourself for success, not for failure. In piano playing, much of this involves feeling the key before you depress it. The confidence and convenience with which you do this can be trained, can be conditioned, but it should become part of your practice. Of course, knowing your music inside out (left hand and right hand separately, for example) also helps. And do not hold your breath!

4) Things to avoid during practice:
- focus on speed and physical strength. This makes you nervous;
- mechanical drilling over and over of passages you find difficult. This conditions your brain to not pay attention and will eventually also make you nervous on D-day;
- practising pieces for future performance that are way beyond your level. By doing this, you set yourself up for punishment (=Your audience will NOT be pleased and you actually know that in advance; denying this is unfair towards yourself).

P.S.: I may have to add something later. These are just the first thoughts that come to mind after reading your message.

Paul

[lloyd_cdb]

This is not confined to music & my inability to 'perform'.  This is something that affects pretty much every aspect of my life.  But I was just wondering if anyone else is like this with performing and if so have you found that anything you did has improved the situation for you?

 I'm also an anxious person throughout every aspect of my life.  I wish I could address the rest of it, but I'm also still working that out.  In regards to piano, ask a family member to sit in every time you practice.  It needs to start somewhere and family is the most comfortable place to start.  You mess up in practice, so get comfortable with doing it in front of people and you'll focus less on the fear of it when you actually perform.  Just like practicing a piece, comfortability in playing in front of others comes slowly.  Paul's advice was very good, and I want to re-emphasize:

a) Breathe.  People do it naturally when practicing and suddenly change in front of people.  Since you're doing it naturally in practice, you rarely actually "practice" it.  Take some time and figure out how you breathe naturally with each piece so you can actually notice it if you start to get off-rhythm.  I really found this was my major issue in playing in front of anyone else.

b) Easy pieces.  Learn some very easy pieces that will give you some confidence playing in front of people.  Do a family recital with these and ask for feedback instead of assuming what people think.  You'd be incredibly surprised at how different your thoughts are from everyone elses'.  Learning hard pieces is great for motivation, but they should be kept in the practice room until they become easy pieces.  Setting yourself up for failure is a great way to negatively reinforce your anxiety.

Lastly, advice is meaningless unless you're willing to do it (surprising huh?).  I've asked for advice and never applied it.  I definitely know that just taking the first step is incredibly hard.  Make sure the first step is reasonable and won't set you up for a blow to your confidence on day one.

[p2u_]

b) Easy pieces.  Learn some very easy pieces that will give you some confidence playing in front of people.

Thanks for you good post, lloyd_cdb.

In reference to the "easy" pieces, I'd like to emphasize the following. It's how you condition the feeling of convenience in those pieces that does it, not the absence of complex passages. I've given that example more than once, but EVERY action in a piece of music you play should be felt as if it were as easy as playing the central C on the piano. 100% predictability of what the result will be; anybody can do this before an audience. Playing the central C is easy. Now how about the first chord in Chopin's C minor prelude? Is it just as convenient or is there fear, uncertainty and doubt? And how about 2, 3, 4 chords? How about a sentence? etc. This positive determination requires conditioning EVERY day. It works even in Liszt's Mazeppa. I have found this to be the major factor for success, even in people who do not suffer so much from performance anxiety.

Paul

[iansinclair]

Paul has some very good comments.

I would only add (or reinterpret?) a little here.

First, with regard to choice of repertoire -- the main thing here is to know, yourself, that you can play what you are planning to perform well enough to be pleasing, and can do it every time.  Or at least almost every time!  It is worth remembering that, except for the odd in-law or crabby critic, you are very likely to be your own harshest critic and listener!

Second, try not to think about the audience.  This is much easier said than done!  But there is a very good reason why, in most concert settings, the audience is in the dark (sometimes figuratively as well as literally, but that's another story ).  Don't spend any conscious effort on this, though...

Third, when bad things happen -- and they will -- don't worry about it (and, when you are practicing, don't worry about it then, either!).  It happens to everyone.  If it's bad enough, just stop and pick up the thread somewhere convenient; I've seen that happen in Boston's Symphony Hall.

Fourth -- the more you perform in public, the easier it gets.  But it is never really easy.

[p2u_]

[...] try not to think about the audience.[...]  Don't spend any conscious effort on this, though... [...] when bad things happen -- and they will -- don't worry about it (and, when you are practicing, don't worry about it then, either!).[...]

 
These are what I call negative commands. Although it seems reasonable advice when everyone is seated in an armchair, talking about these problems, such commands don't work in practice because the brain tends to do the opposite during the fight-or-flight situation. You need to replace the negative with something positive and condition that during preparation for the "dreadful event".

Fourth -- the more you perform in public, the easier it gets.  But it is never really easy.

This is certainly true. It may also help to play for someone special only (someone you know will accept almost anything from you because they love you as a person), and just ignore all those people present, waiting for you to fail.

Paul

[bronnestam]

Oh, this is so much me.    I gave up the idea of becoming a professional pianist a million years ago, just because of my terrible stage fright. But I've grown older since then    so I've learned a few things that probably are helpful:

- most of the negative effects of stage fright is because you simply cannot play the piece good enough. Painful truth, but nevertheless the truth. If you REALLY can play the piece well, some stage fright will probably only "boost" you a little, making you play even better than usual.

- and how do you know you can play it well enough? Simple, try this: Play the piece very slowly, and by heart, of course. Yes, slowly. Play it perfectly, just the way you want it, but slowly. That will give you time to plan your playing in advance. Whenever you discover an error, or hesitate, or simply just "lose it", you know exactly what to work with.
I am sure that most of your stage fright will vanish when you feel confident.

- during my teen years, when I still performed on stage (piano, dance) I discovered that most of my stage fright was an "entrance problem". For example, during a recital I was to play TWO pieces. The first one was the usual disaster, my hands got ice cold, I started to shiver, the music sounded awful (uneven etcetera) and of course I lost it completely. In those days I did not know I had to have it completely memorized ...
So, after that one, sitting there in humiliation and cold sweat, I proceeded with the next piece. It was like a breeze. All my nervousness was gone and I played the whole piece flawlessly, even better than before.
So one little trick might be to start with something really easy, and then proceed with something more difficult when you have "shaken off" some of your worst fright.

- another little trick could be that you start video recording yourself when you play at home. Not necessarily for public uploading on YouTube    but anyway, it is some practice ... 

- a golden rule is NEVER to interrupt yourself when you happen to make a mistake. Everybody makes mistakes, even the best pianist in the world. But those who have experience just ignore it, and hence 95% of the audience never notice ... (I am the worst "stopper" in the world myself, but I word hard in order to stop that stupid habit.) Think like this: if you know that nobody will notice your mistakes, you would not make that many, right?

[cmg]

Thanks for you good post, lloyd_cdb.

In reference to the "easy" pieces, I'd like to emphasize the following. It's how you condition the feeling of convenience in those pieces that does it, not the absence of complex passages. I've given that example more than once, but EVERY action in a piece of music you play should be felt as if it were as easy as playing the central C on the piano. 100% predictability of what the result will be; anybody can do this before an audience. Playing the central C is easy. Now how about the first chord in Chopin's C minor prelude? Is it just as convenient or is there fear, uncertainty and doubt? And how about 2, 3, 4 chords? How about a sentence? etc. This positive determination requires conditioning EVERY day. It works even in Liszt's Mazeppa. I have found this to be the major factor for success, even in people who do not suffer so much from performance anxiety.

Paul

Paul, excellent advice.  You are a true treasure.   

[p2u_]

Paul, excellent advice.  You are a true treasure.  

You are just too kind, cmg. This is just a description of what we could call one of the essential elements in the "prodigy mindset", which is what makes great artists Great.

Paul

[pts1]

Muleski

I could not be more sympathetic (and empathetic)

This is an extremely difficult problem to deal with successfully, IMHO, and I have been plagued by it as well at times.

Personality is a big factor, for instance... if you are an introvert this makes it harder IMHO. (I am: this basically means introverts get energy from time with themselves and pursuing solitary aims. Extroverts aka "people persons" gather energy from being with others and naturally gravitate to "other inclusive" activities and professions.)

Paul had some great ideas. I think his "conditioning positively" suggestion is among the best.

I have noticed with myself if a piece is "hard" but I don't think it is... then it goes well ... or relatively well. If I think its hard or I fear it, even if it would not be considered so by most pianists... then I'm in trouble.

The brain can actually "rewire" itself with the help of "the mind" by conditioning over and over with positive thought and experience. In neuroscience there is a saying that is the #1 commandment of neuroscience: Those neurons that fire together wire together.

Meaning, the more you reinforce the positive, the more it literally takes root (neuronol growth I believe) and becomes habit, both emotionally and physically.

As Paul said, knowing the piece inside and out is a major help, and also being able to play the piece knowing you will get through it even if you have to slow down or slightly compromise is another big confidence booster, realizing of course the audience will TRULY not know the difference. A lot of extroverts in the audience who just absolutely envy you and wish they had kept up their piano lessons and are amazed and simply love it.

But last and likely most important, I'm afraid the best advice and best thing you can do -- given you are well prepared and playing within your limits -- is to get experience, i.e. face your fears.

This is likely the most powerful remedy and eventually allows your mind and body to turn off (or mostly turn off ) the "fight or flight" terror response your old reptilian brain puts you in, by realizing first hand that the audience will not attack or kill you, that you will survive, that you are your own worst enemy, and you can start to adapt to the situation and become comfortable.

So my advice is to start small.

There are all sorts of venues where you can play for an audience.
For instance.... nursing homes would love to have you play for the residents and they are MOST appreciative.

How about playing for a music appreciation class in a school?

And play something you are comfortable playing, well within your grasp.

It does not have to be Carnegie Hall for your mind/body to face its fear. Some of the reaction will occur in these "easy" settings and each baby step forward will help.

[p2u_]

But last and likely most important, I'm afraid the best advice and best thing you can do -- given you are well prepared and playing within your limits -- is to get experience, i.e. face your fears.

Instead of words to confirm this truth, I want to add a video clip where Pavarotti and colleagues discuss stage fright.

The very moment you go on stage you MUST be scared. If you are not scared, then you are not an artist.

Paul

[muleski]

Paul, pts1, cmg, bronnestam, iansinclair, lloyd_cdb (apologies if I've missed anyone),

Firstly, I'd like to thank you all for your comments, suggestions & advice.  It all makes perfect sense to me and yes I'm very much an introvert & a social phobic generally. 

Much of it such as conditioning my mind into being fundamentally more positive than it is now, is the most difficult of all.  My rational mind knows this & has done for years, it is a case of knowing something but not acting on it (or not feeling able to act) - my own fault essentially.  But when clarified by others, it's as though I realise I HAVE to whip myself into shape mentally so to speak.  I think the idea of playing in front of someone close as a practise session is a very good idea, that, I think, in itself would take away the 'oh God, I have to do it right or they'll think I'm rubbish..' mindset I always seem to be in.  Of course, it follows then that my playing actually IS rubbish when I play in front of anyone. 

Easy pieces: I can see the logic in that, very much.  I have to avoid the 'it's easy & boring' thought.  What if I split my repertoire into a combination of challenging pieces; training pieces; technical exercises etc?  All of it is work of course & I certainly need to work on all aspects of my playing.  Whereas I currently am pretty much only learning the pieces I want to play & am guilty of not pushing myself to really work at developing broad keyboard skills. 

I should also say that my music theory knowledge is poor as I'm not conventionally trained.  I can only memorise what I learn, I can't sight read for love nor money.  My progress is pretty slow because of work & family commitments, but I rarely go a day without at least some practise.  So the way I learn is this:  Bar by bar, lots of repetition & it sinks into my head & hands.  Once memorised I dispense with the score (or at least the parts I've learned). 

Also, I wouldn't conceive it to be normal to be able to waltz in front of an audience & not be in the slightest bit nervous, but there are bound to be various levels of nervousness (or in my case terror!) before performing.  Having a goal of accepting a certain amount of apprehension before performing is, I think, reasonable.  But my real challenge is learning how to deal with it in a positive fashion and not to be consumed & defeated by it.

Again, I really appreciate all the advice - I really will take it on board & report back in the future.

[p2u_]

Much of it such as conditioning my mind into being fundamentally more positive than it is now, is the most difficult of all.  My rational mind knows this & has done for years, it is a case of knowing something but not acting on it (or not feeling able to act) - my own fault essentially.  But when clarified by others, it's as though I realise I HAVE to whip myself into shape mentally so to speak.

I suggest you print out what was said here in this topic and meditate on it more than once. It is quite possible that you'll need peptalk and/or help with this from someone you trust. First of all: stop punishing yourself, because that is what you seem to be doing. The past is the past. Your fear is old, repressed pain, not directly related to the present situation. Scream therapy seems like a VERY good thing for you to do.

Easy pieces: I can see the logic in that, very much.  I have to avoid the 'it's easy & boring' thought.  What if I split my repertoire into a combination of challenging pieces; training pieces; technical exercises etc?  All of it is work of course & I certainly need to work on all aspects of my playing.  Whereas I currently am pretty much only learning the pieces I want to play & am guilty of not pushing myself to really work at developing broad keyboard skills.

Stop punishing yourself. You worry too much in the wrong direction. Please read post no 3 again. If you don't believe that, then it may help to know that I am completely self-taught and started when I was 20. Now I'm coaching even super-advanced people. There is hope. I've always felt, though, that standard teaching approaches interfere too strongly, and so do most teachers. You just need to make a decision. Success is NOW, not in some distant future.

I should also say that my music theory knowledge is poor as I'm not conventionally trained.  I can only memorise what I learn, I can't sight read for love nor money.  My progress is pretty slow because of work & family commitments, but I rarely go a day without at least some practise.  So the way I learn is this:  Bar by bar, lots of repetition & it sinks into my head & hands.  Once memorised I dispense with the score (or at least the parts I've learned).

See above. Stop punishing yourself. Nothing's wrong. Continue doing what you have been doing. Just add the positive approach.

But my real challenge is learning how to deal with it in a positive fashion and not to be consumed & defeated by it.

That should be part of your daily practice, part of your preparation. You cannot do A in your practice and hope for B to appear all by itself.

Paul

[bronnestam]

Paul: "Success is NOW, not in some distant future".

Oh God, I love you for that! I think I will put that within glass and frame and hang it on the wall ... at least mentally. SUCH good advice!

I used to practice with the attitude "I suck, another error, oops, there again, I am bad, I am a joke, see, yet another big mistake -> confirmed, I really suck". My practicing was an endless row of "mistakes" and failures.

Then I changed my attitude completely. I lowered my ambitions to "learn half a bar more" or "get that chord right". Now, after each and every practice session I tell myself "today I learned this and that, today I improved in hitting that key, today I memorized yet another bar". (I have great difficulties in memorizing because my teacher was all in just sight reading, and believe me - that is not a good thing.) Suddenly my practicing is an endless row of successes instead of failures! And that makes all the difference!

How I learned this? From my dog, actually. Proper dog training is based on the idea of "positive enhancement". You reward every little sign of progress and ignore the "failures", and you get a happy dog who stays constantly motivated and learns very quickly. Punish your dog, and he will maybe "learn" a few things, but also start to hate training and be afraid of trying new things out.
So, we do not differ from our dogs in this aspect.

To muleski: Thank you for starting this thread. You've got to realize that you also teach us all something by doing this. Your experiences and reflections are very important to share.

[pts1]

... I'm really enjoying it & love playing in isolation.

Muleski

Just one more thing and then I'll leave you with what is a lot of thoughtful advice from the contributors.

YOUR enjoyment and love for the piano -- whatever that may mean -- is the central issue.

You do NOT have to play for other people.

Only if you want to, and its up to you as to when and where and what.

I know this raises all sorts of socio/phobic thoughts for you, but it is nevertheless the bottom line.

People do not forge and keep careers because they hate the piano.... the performance aspect not only comes from their expertise but from the love they have for playing and the ability and desire to extend that outside of themselves to an audience.

If you simply feel like you MUST play for family or friends at times, learn something that is easy but audience friendly. There are a lot of things that fit this bill.

Schumann's Traumeri, is an example perhaps. There are some easy and short Chopin Preludes.

This is about WANT TO not HAVE TO!

And once you really find your niche in which you have a feeling of competency -- then think of sharing it if you wish, and to what degree.

It is all about WANT -- no longer about SHOULD or MUST!

[jogoeshome]

The dreaded thread!

Sorry can't help you with this one. I am your age and had the same problem ever since I was 8. The only thing it helps for me is taking some KALMS TABLETS which I also take when I have a presentation at work.

[muleski]

Wow, I really am quite overwhelmed with the advice & suggestions.  Quite simply I've been afforded a lot of support & necessary straight talking - for all of it I am very grateful. 

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I feel as though I've had a proverbial slap in the face & I mean that in jest & in the best way possible.  A slap to make me see sense so to speak  .  And also that my 'logical mind' ought to be trusted rather than being defeated by nerves when they kick in. 

In order to be proactive, I'm going to extract the advice & write it out in points that I can actually put into practise (along with a few mantras!).  It's true that I punish myself and Bronnestam I'm definitely guilty of that 'this session is a failure & I messed that bit up yet again, I'm obviously rubbish & incapable etc'. Conversely I sometimes think I'm not bad & that's when I feel I want to play in front of people.  Why do personalities have to be so contradictory?! 

Thanks again everyone for your support, it is much appreciated as even reading the advice has lifted my spirits, perhaps because it's come from fellow pianists (but mainly because it's all sound advice & being from pianists helps).  Yes, it is up to me to actually act on the advice given (& I have a long way to go), but if others have managed to overcome similar difficulties, there is no logical reason as to why I shouldn't also. 

Jogoeshome, have you ever tried anything to change your attitude?  I've always been this way too & whilst I've long thought 'well this is just the way I am', hearing how other people manage to overcome difficulties does make me more honest with myself in that I can say I've never actually tried to change in order to achieve what I want.  It's not that I don't know what my shortcomings are in terms of negative thinking, but I've never really attempted to proactively do anything about it.  Work presentations, urgh.  Thankfully they're few & far between for me...

Many thanks

[hfmadopter]

Thanks again everyone for your support, it is much appreciated as even reading the advice has lifted my spirits, perhaps because it's come from fellow pianists (but mainly because it's all sound advice & being from pianists helps).  Yes, it is up to me to actually act on the advice given (& I have a long way to go), but if others have managed to overcome similar difficulties, there is no logical reason as to why I shouldn't also. 

Muleski, all sound advice above. The biggest thing though will be actually to play in front of people more often. Also to go ahead and make a few mistakes and be able to laugh at them and keep on going. Once made, a mistake can then break the ice into gaining control over the piano for the rest of the piece or the performance even. At least that's been my experience. Once you get through this a few times you will slowly gain confidence to play in front of people. I'm not saying to willfully make a mistake but when one happens and they will, then it seems the playing just gets easier. It tends to free that bond that you are trying to make a perfect performance happen and the tension that can go with that thought process.

Something I don't believe was mentioned that may help, is recording yourself. It puts the same kind of pressure on or a similar pressure at least, as playing in front of people when you may not have someone around to play in front of.. You don't need fancy recording equipment, you aren't after an exceptional recording of your music, just the presence of that recorder being on is enough, at least initially. Just as you can grow accustomed to playing to the recorder, you can do the same to play to willing listeners. I like the suggestion to play to the person in a group that you know wants to hear you play, that's a good one and put the rest of them aside.

I do not agree with practicing, not general practice and especially of new pieces with a specific audience ( sitting there to listen to you). My belief is that is the no zone for an audience to be around, you need private time for intial practice, IMO. When you have something up and running that's another matter then. If there is activity , say in the kitchen or another room that's one thing, but really when we are trying to work new passages out, just give us some space please !

[49410enrique]

lots o good advice here for all.

to the OP i would say, you should evaluate why you like and choose the works you study, i think it's a little strange that you only want to play/learn pieces that are at the limit of your abilties (interpretation and technical wise), i believe there is tremendous value in working pieces that are a good several notches below your current level so you can simply get more experience learning and interpreting new music, and so you can practice and focus on more musical challenges (phrasing, dynamics/tone) without having to wrestle with huge techinal difficulties. just a tought. i also happen to think taht some of the most beautiful music can be (and many /often times) quite simple in constrution and not neccessarily crazy difficult....



i would add a couple of things (of several) that i do and what has been helping me, how i think about the 'performance' that is, i ask myself well early inthe learning the process, 'what does success look like' with regard to learning a particular piece? I define that goal, be it an acceptable tempo, breaking through a 'barrier' or limitation I had (i.e. perhaps I was having trouble navigating works of single or multiple movements lastings more than 15 minutes of continuous /single performance playing time, etc.), then i keep that in mind as the end result and how I define the accomplishment, for me. once I achieve that, I have so much more confidence when I sit down to play it, and that helps a lot, 'knowing' you can do what you want to do helps you actually do it than 'thinking' or 'hoping' you want to.

once i have been successful, then if there is a performance  (deadline or exam/jury, etc.), then I make sure that well in advance of the performance, I practice less, that is, i begin shifting the focus (as early as possible once the goals have been achieved) to practicing the performance vs practicing the piece(s). i begin no less than 1 month away (to my best ability) to begin playing the music as if it were a performance, both by myself, and (this is important) for the camera. That is, if you cannot find a mock performance opportunity (which is best), at least force yourself to record so that you put an artificial public pressure on yourself. this will help show you places that may need special polish or drilling and readdressing in front of an audience (sometimes these places will only show themselves under 'pressure').

where traditional practice is still neccessary, i begin utilizing more start and stop slow practice, that is, i play deliberately very slowsy what I am working on trying to make sure I see visually what is happening at the keybarod, where my hands are, do i have strange tension like a raised shoulder, etc, and try to remove all barriers to successful execution. then i go back and re-perform it to see if i fixed it.

i set goals for complete of these things at two weeks from the performance date, i have found that if it is not ready to be played or sounds how you want it to sound about 15 days away from the performance, you are likely not ready to perform it and every day less than 15 that it takes you to be ready only increases your odds of not having a satisfactory or your best performance.

by the time this is done, the performance becomes little more than the 'fun part' that is, enjoy the time you get to be the star! you did all the hard work and now its your turn to have a good time and share what you did with the audience. when its fun and you know you are prepared, there is little room left for thoughts that would cause crippling fear or stage fright. there will (and should) be a healthy energy or small amount of nervousnessness, thats okay i think it can help you stay sharp. but yeah by the time i sit downat the piano, and it gets quiet, and i am preparing the first note, im usualy thinking, alright guys, or hey everyone watch this, or check this out-this is going to be really cool!

in the days leading up to the performance I also try not to 'overpractice' i attemp to continue practicing theperformance (full run through, no stopping, if a mistake happens i practice being able to not look as if i made one and just move on, i also practice jumpting to memory stations if memorized or nail page turns if not i.e. collaborative/accompanying, etc). i try to make sure the night before to be super relaxed, sleep a lot, go for a nice walk or execise the day before and of, etc, basically keep stress low.

[lostinidlewonder]

This is not confined to music & my inability to 'perform'.  This is something that affects pretty much every aspect of my life.

I find this is the most important realization that you made.

Expectations others have on us can be very difficult to deal with, especially if in your life you have not had loving support from others. I certainly feel for you and personally know many people and family members who are in the same boat as yourself. If you can reconcile past experiences and learn to find value in yourself which stands alone without anyone judging you to hold it up, this is a good step.

Just think about this, a tiny % of people in this entire world play the piano. Look at the entire population of this earth. Even if you have touched a piano you are a very very fortunate few compared to the rest of the world.

Those who love music will not judge you and make you feel bad if you make a mistake while playing your piano. Those who criticize you but leave you happy and excited are those who care for you the most, I criticise my students all the time but give them tools to improve so the critique is good, those who critique but leave you with nothing are fools who know nothing.

Those who just pull you down or turn their nose at you for mistakes are ... well simply put, they are just idiots. There are many idiots in this world wanting to pull you down because they are failures in their own life. People who are successful in life don't waste time trying to pull you down to earth, they want to encourage you... unless you have delusional thoughts lol

I am sure playing for your family and friends they all love you and are interested in you, if you can share the rare art of playing the piano you are giving them something special and unique. How many people can say they have seen the piano being played live before them and seen music created right there? Most people listen to artificially recreated music, you are creating music which is an old ancient human skill, feel proud that you are a part of it and love it, your ancestors thousands of years ago also loved it.

[muleski]

Again, I must say how grateful I am to the comments & advice given.

49410enrique, I think I just have a love of melancholy, dramatic & even depressing pieces (like Liszt's Totentanz).  I memorised music easily as a youngster & I learned some Rachmaninov (which stayed in my head some 20 years of not having a piano) & have been under something of an illusion at my age now that I can 'learn anything', by virtue of being able to memorise music so well, in addition to never having undergone a music exam in my life.  In reality though, after taking it back up, it's proving hard work & slow progress.  My most passionate piece to learn at the moment is Hungarian Rhapsody No.2.  Of course, for someone who's something of a beginner in many ways, it's probably not the ideal starting point (when taking piano back up).  However, despite my reservations, insecurities & lack of training etc. And all the negative thinking (which I am pre-disposed to), there is some small aspect in me that says 'I can do it'.  And this is the part of me that wants to 'perform'.  Also, it sounds as though you & I are from very different backgrounds, in terms of what we are hoping to achieve musically.  You are far more serious a musician than I.  I do believe though, that people from different backgrounds can offer each other some valuable advice, though I'm not sure what I could offer you at this point!

But having said that & in light of previous comments on here, learning other pieces indeed is worthwhile & more so valuable.  So already I have started learning Parvane Pour Une Infante Defunte (Ravel).  Starts off easy, but think it's gets more technical as it goes along.  Maybe not to the extent of other pieces (we'll see!). 

hfmadopter, yes I think someone did say about recording myself (apologies I can't remember who now).  But this is something I have been doing already.  I feel a similar pressure when doing so but not as intensely, as I know I can stop it an any time & delete it.  It does help though, in seeing what improvements are made from practise. 

  To all of you, eternally grateful....

[iancollett6]

If I could just add something!...A little while ago I picked up a book on meditation, the basic message was that in our minds we have alot of "chatter", that is thoughts that are not needed for the task at hand. This chatter could be anything from what ticked you off at work, thinking about something you saw on the TV to negative comments directed to yourself.
 This chatter is distracting, draining and sometimes destructive. Anyway the idea of meditation is to quieten the mind so mentally you are in the here and now. There are various techniques to achieve this.
 I have been using one of these techniques before I begin playing a song..and I really think it works.
 The ultimate goal is to remove any thoughts other than playing the music.
   I hope this didnt come across as being to far out and hippy! but look into it and give it a try.
     iancollett6

[birba]

p2u has pretty much hit it on the head.  Way to go, p2u!  I bet you have a lot of clients.
Stage fright is the name of the game.  It goes with being a performer.  There's a good book called the inner game of music, which was a derivative of the inner game of tennis.

https://ebookbrowse.com/barry-green-the-inner-game-of-music-program-pdf-d414904724

It's fun reading.

[steinway43]

Paul, what do you charge when you work with people one on one?

And has anyone tried beta blockers?

What I need is a place where I can get used to playing in front of people on a regular basis again.

[dima_76557]

Paul, what do you charge when you work with people one on one?

You won't get a reply, steinway43. p2u_ left the forum for a reason and is not coming back. Too proud I guess. All I can say from my own experience with him here in Moscow, is that he has given me more than one session for free, and I hear the same from others too.

[winden]

This may be a little late as I reply, I have the same trouble with stage fright but recently had been getting better. At my school we have a grand piano in the show room when you first walk in, so if you play there customers, prospective students, neighboring store owners can hear or see you; I started doing all my lessons there. There's no guarentee someone will come by, but there's always one person in the room and it helps you get used to playing infront of others. When I go there I'm focused on what I need to learn for my lesson so it's not as hard, though I can't say I don't get tripped up still when someone comes in, the unexpected happens and no ones perfect.
Your stage fright won't go away in a snap either, I still get jittery when I play, I was told just last night my music sounded nervous by a friends and honestly it was crushing, I really wanted him to enjoy the music and be excited by it, but I got the opposite in response.l I think you can really do is keep playing infront of others till you can be relaxed and everyone can enjoy the music.

[4greatkeyboards]

The answer to this problem is simply playing for people. More. Do it. Artur Rubenstein advised us to play each piece TO someone, not to ourselves.

You can play in free forums such as assisted living centers and like such as seniors housing. That is probably the easiest. Next, some libraries will host free concerts.

Also some hospitals want this and actively solicit it. Some have performance halls or areas.

[hardy_practice]

I get it when I walk into a shop.  If I haven't made a list chances are I'll forget half the stuff.

[dima_76557]

The answer to this problem is simply playing for people. More. Do it.

I'm afraid that if the person who suffers from this unfortunate phenomenon does not address the underlying problems as indicated by p2u_ above, the problem may actually get worse by simply "doing it". The result may well be an ever stronger confirmation that he/she is no good for anything.

[lostinidlewonder]

I have to support desensitizing through experience. Do it and get better at it. If you don't get better then no magic thinking will help you really. You never gain amnesia from your fears but you learn to deal with it.

[dima_76557]

I have to support desensitizing through experience. Do it and get better at it. If you don't get better then no magic thinking will help you really. You never gain amnesia from your fears but you learn to deal with it.

The sink-or-swim method may work with some, but certainly not with all (it did nothing good for me personally, for example). Failure isn't fun, so if your experience is negative, it may snowball into something very, very negative that spreads to other areas in life.

Also, many of the bad habits we see in piano playing may well be caused by SUPPRESSED performance anxiety. Why are many people so tense when they play? Wrong technique? That is just a symptom. We often just learn to drill and tame ourselves for performance in order to protect ourselves from mistakes, from failure, etc. and the result is mechanical playing, subconsciously blocking both fear and inspiration.

[lostinidlewonder]

The sink-or-swim method may work with some, but certainly not with all

Desensitizing is not as ham fisted as just sink or swim. You try many times, you be encouraged, you are supported, you do it in stages etc, if you don't have this support network it can be hard. You learn how to perform infront of people, not just thrown in the deep end and watched to flounder about.

(it did nothing good for me personally, for example). Failure isn't fun, so if your experience is negative, it may snowball into something very, very negative that spreads to other areas in life.

If you fail at trying and get depressed over that then you certainly will be more depressed if you do not try. One must fail many times to achieve great success sometimes, look at Thomas Edison or Mr KFC

Also, many of the bad habits we see in piano playing may well be caused by SUPPRESSED performance anxiety. Why are many people so tense when they play? Wrong technique? That is just a symptom. We often just learn to drill and tame ourselves for performance in order to protect ourselves from mistakes, from failure, etc. and the result is mechanical playing, subconsciously blocking both fear and inspiration.

This all seems like hot air, if someone is stage fright most Psychologists will say that exposure to the fear often helps reduce it and one learns to control it. Maybe you should educate yourself on techniques used for desensitizing people who have phobias.

[dima_76557]

Desensitizing is not as ham fisted as just sink or swim. You try many times, you be encouraged, you are supported. You learn how to perform infront of people, not just thrown in the deep end and watched to flounder about.

Guess I wasn't so lucky. I had to perform pieces that were way above my level and was told time and time again that I had done a lousy job and should try better next time. Some support, don't you think?

If you fail at trying and get depressed over that then you certainly will be more depressed if you do not try.

And how about addressing the underlying problems? Rubinstein said once that "piano playing is like making love" (c). If one does a lousy job on that, one doesn't become better by doing it more. Instead one has to change his/her attitude to self, to the concerns of the loving partner and to the act itself. Only then does it make sense to do it more.
 

This all seems like hot air, if someone is stage fright most Psychologists will say that exposure to the fear often helps reduce it and one learns to control it. Maybe you should educate yourself on techniques used for desensitizing people who have phobias.

I have learned my lesson already and am perfectly all right because I got over it, thanks. I do hope that other people will have the opportunity to find the same kind of quality help because "educating" yourself about it (=theorizing about it) doesn't really help. Success has a formula that can be learned. Isn't that good news?

[lostinidlewonder]

You can do all sorts of fancy things to try and remove your fear but in the end if you do not expose yourself to the fear constantly you will never learn to deal with it.

Most people overcome fears in their life by experiencing. If one does not go through experiencing constantly things that make them afraid or uncomfortable they will never get better at it. The first time someone rides a bike, drives a car, first job interview or whatever, you may have some sense of uncertainty and fear but that slowly vanishes the more you do it. Desensitizing is something we all experience throughout our life and it effects everyone of us because that is the psychology of humans.

[chopin2015]

You can do all sorts of fancy things to try and remove your fear but in the end if you do not expose yourself to the fear constantly you will never learn to deal with it.

Most people overcome fears in their life by experiencing. If one does not go through experiencing constantly things that make them afraid or uncomfortable they will never get better at it. The first time someone rides a bike, drives a car, first job interview or whatever, you may have some sense of uncertainty and fear but that slowly vanishes the more you do it. Desensitizing is something we all experience throughout our life and it effects everyone of us because that is the psychology of humans.

Make a list.
Write down questions you have about performing, such as "what if" questions. Then write answers. Plan out your entrance and test it. Write down what you felt and any questions you thought of. Plan out what you look at and what you think of. Write steps. Track EVERYTHING! Leave nothing unknown, especially in your music. Write down progress and setbacks. Let me know if you have any questions?

[4greatkeyboards]

Is it because your pieces are not worked up enough or only because of stage fright?

If your pieces are prepared well enough then in the privacy of your own studio you can play them without faltering every time: first take. Do you record yourself? Are you sure you are at this level?

If you are then it is just anxiety and practice makes better. Go out and do it. Relax, few but you will know your missed notes so long as you keep going.

I read that Rachmaninoff, early in his career, became depressed thinking he was somehow inadequate, to the point of drinking alcohol so much that his hands trembled.  His cure was that he was hypnotized by a therapist who then convinced him he was adequate (! good heavens, a Master!).