The '7th' note in a chord

[matt_walker]

What I'm confused about is this:

In C6, or C9 or whatever, you add the 6th (A) or 9th (D) of the scale to the chord. Simple enough, right? But then take C7 for instance. You're not actually adding the 7th of the scale, you're adding the minor 7th. So why is it called C7, wheras the 'real' C7 (with the added B rather than Bb) is called Cmaj7. I'm guessing it's because to call something C^min7 would obviously be confused with Cm7. But then why not use C^b7 (as in C^b5) or something? Or am I just finding problems where there aren't any?!

[p2u_]

why is it called C7, wheras the 'real' C7 (with the added B rather than Bb) is called Cmaj7.

Because you build the so-called dominant 7th chord starting on the V of the scale this chord resolves to. C7 resolves to F, and in F you have Bflat, not B.
C maj7 (with a B) would be either I in C or IV in G.

Paul

[chopin2015]

C flat 7 would be half diminished or dominant depending on what you do with the rest oh the chord? If the 9th note is d then it is half maj half minor chord...whatever those are called...im probably not understanding what you are talking about. Also, the triad of c7, c e g, is a major triad, so it is a maj 7, but you notate these with a capital letter instead of a little letter. It is just a chord in a chord progression, ignore the 7th step of the c major scale. In flat 5, however, does not occur in any scales or modes but the locrian. Also, the dominant chord, in jazz, can be substituted with this, or any chord for jazziness. It all depends on what the context is where you are doubting the quality of the C7.

[dcstudio]

an issue with chord symbols is there are several ways of writing them depending on which real or fake book you are using...  They are short-hand...and they serve their purpose quite well and can REALLY come in handy if you are able to process them quickly.  You will recognize them all easily enough after you get used to them though they can be confusing at first.   

[p2u_]

Also, the triad of c7, c e g, is a major triad, so it is a maj 7, but you notate these with a capital letter instead of a little letter.

I assumed the topic starter was talking about the notation used in Jazz and popular music. In that case, it's better to use only the terminology used in those systems. When they write C7, then they ALWAYS mean a dominant 7 chord; one that needs to be resolved. This is indeed a major triad + a minor 7th. It appears on the V of the scale, so if you look at the scale of C, you get G7 (GBDF).
Maj7 chords, a major triad + a major 7th, as the name indicates, do NOT have such an urgent need to be resolved. They appear on I and IV of the scale. In the scale of C, that would be Cmaj7 (c-e-g-b) and Fmaj7 (f-a-c-e).

Wikipedia has it all: Seventh chord.

Paul

[matt_walker]

OK, I think I'm getting it - sort of. When we see C7, we see it in terms of the dominant of F major (and so put in the Bb) rather than the tonic of C major, because the following chord after C7 will most probably F major (perfect cadence), making F major the tonic rather than C major.

In flat 5, however, does not occur in any scales or modes but the locrian.

But when playing the lochrian mode you don't flatten the 5th, you just play chosen scale starting at the 7th degree eg. lochrian of C major would be all the white notes B to B.

[chopin2015]

OK, I think I'm getting it - sort of. When we see C7, we see it in terms of the dominant of F major (and so put in the Bb) rather than the tonic of C major, because the following chord after C7 will most probably F major (perfect cadence), making F major the tonic rather than C major.

But when playing the lochrian mode you don't flatten the 5th, you just play chosen scale starting at the 7th degree eg. lochrian of C major would be all the white notes B to B.

Are you serious right now? Im pretty sure that if it were in comparison to a major scale, you flatten the 2, the 3, the 5 6 and 7. That is how you turn c major to locrian.

If you are talking about my flat 5th example, i was just talking theory and im not completely an idiot.

[dcstudio]

try thinking more modal... in addition to how you would alter a major scale to achieve the mode--think also of how it feels in it's natural all white B to B form.  Start listening to Blues and Jazz players and try and identify what chord voicings they are using.  Use the Real book at first until you can recognize the chord progressions without it.  

this will help you so much more than over analyzing in this string--although music theory debates are fun..--may I be so bold as to quote the late great Bill Evans.  

Jazz is not an intellectual process, we use are intellect to understand it, but it takes years and years of practice to forget all that and just play.

forgive me for being preachy...this is me playing the blues with my husband and guitar player--if you would like to see what I mean.

[matt_walker]

Are you serious right now? Im pretty sure that if it were in comparison to a major scale, you flatten the 2, the 3, the 5 6 and 7. That is how you turn c major to locrian.

If you are talking about my flat 5th example, i was just talking theory and im not completely an idiot.

Firstly, I'm sorry if I've somehow offended you. I'm not sure exactly how I might have done that, but if I have, I'm sorry.

Going back to the locrian mode of C major, why would you want to compare and work it out from the B major scale? The locrian mode of C major has no relation to B major, apart from they start on the same note. I find it much easier to simply play the C major (which would be the key signature) scale starting on the 7th degree (ie. B).

In the same way, you wouldn't say that A harmonic minor is derived from the A major scale, and you have to flatten the 3rd and 6th. You'd say it is related to C major, shares that key signature, and then you sharpen 7th.

[chopin2015]

You didnt offend me. I know you are talking about the key signature being in C, and c7 flat five we agree that flat five is derived from c locrian. Not locrian of c major which would be b locrian, but c locrian of b major. I get all that. However, there is no c natural in b major scale, that is the beauty of turning c major into c locrian, and can modulate to B. For example, c 7 flat five down to b major 7th, to be really straight forward here.


Just trying to clear up locrian starting on c is different than locrian starting on b....

[p2u_]

Not locrian of c major which would be b locrian, but c locrian of b major.

Surely, you mean Db?

Paul

[chopin2015]

Ill have to think about that one.

Thanks!

[p2u_]

@ chopin2015

No nitpicking intended. On the piano, 5 Black keys is 5 black keys, however you call them, but strictly speaking (and for this particular section of the forum), C Locrian Mode has 5 flats.

Paul

[jnoelliste]

--although music theory debates are fun..--may I be so bold as to quote the late great Bill Evans. 

Jazz is not an intellectual process, we use are intellect to understand it, but it takes years and years of practice to forget all that and just play.

This quote rings true on so many different levels! An intellectual understand (of seventh chords for example) must be established in order to lead to effortless improv (with seventh chords etc...). And...I think intellectual understand includes aural recognition and mastery of musical objects as well! Simply being able to regurgitate the interval content of a given seventh chord is worthless in the heat of improv if our ears aren't engaged...

Personally, I like to categories seventh chords using a "double m" system. The first m gives the triadic content and the second m, the seventh note content. M stands for Major and m for minor yielding...

MM7 (used extensively in Impressionistic music and Jazz ballads)
Mm7 (otherwise called the dominant 7th chord...the most frequently occuring 7th chord)
mm7 (normally of predominant function, i.e. as a ii7...great for dorian scale riffs etc.)
mM7 (awesome color chord used in myriad ways at the end of minor mode jazz pieces! I think various arrangements of the James Bond theme end with this chord...9th is normally added for more color!)

*note...this leaves out 7th chord possibilities with diminished and augmented triads! Some awesome sounds!

It's also cool to experiment with substituting the normal or diatonic 7th chord on a given scale degree with another type.
For example, we normally use a Mm7 i.e. dominant seventh on the 5th scale degree...e.g. - a G dominant 7 in the key of C major. Well...if we change that G dominant 7 to a GMM7 or a Gmm7, all of a sudden, our chord progression can end up in some pretty awesome, far-a-field places! Then...enjoy the harmonic journey of getting back to the home key!

Joseph Noelliste
Solo Pianist and Composer
www.jnoelliste.com
www.facebook.com/jnoelliste

[dcstudio]

.enjoy the harmonic journey of getting back to the home key!

Joseph Noelliste
Solo Pianist and Composer
www.jnoelliste.com
www.facebook.com/jnoelliste

YES!!! way to go Joe --  like the way you put that.  funny--I saw your vid on youtube this morning--nice to meet you!

.

[jnoelliste]

thanks! nice to meet you too and thanks for checking out my youtube video. If you have any youtube posts you'd like to share, send them on! I just joined this site today...great stuff here! T Did the vocal quality resemble a choir enough for you?

To be more true to the topic at hand lol..7th chords lol, there's a surprising use of a mm7 chord on the lyrics "All Generations..." The piece begins in A minor and then this Cmm7 !?! intrudes after a slight ritardando...somehow, the chorus line "Who is like the Lord" gets to more familiar harmonic ground, i.e. C Major, the relative major to the A minor the piece started in...

Joseph Noelliste
Solo Pianist and Composer
www.jnoelliste.com
www.facebook.com/jnoelliste

[nystul]

I suspect "lochrian mode" is usually the wrong way of thinking.  The flatted fifth is not a stable chord tone.  It is usually leading us to what happens next.  Whether it be a diminished vii chord leading back to I, or the French sixth, or the "tritone substitution" in jazz, these are all leading us to the next chord.  If someone will end a Cm piece with Cm7b5 will it sound like "lochrian mode" or will it sound like "dude hit the wrong note at the end of the song"?

[p2u_]

I suspect "lochrian mode" is usually the wrong way of thinking.  The flatted fifth is not a stable chord tone.  It is usually leading us to what happens next.  Whether it be a diminished vii chord leading back to I, or the French sixth, or the "tritone substitution" in jazz, these are all leading us to the next chord.  If someone will end a Cm piece with Cm7b5 will it sound like "lochrian mode" or will it sound like "dude hit the wrong note at the end of the song"?

Yes, Locrian is mostly a THEORETICAL mode and will never feel like "Home" exactly because of the TRITONE on the tonica, which is so dissonant that it HAS TO BE resolved to something else (it is also present in the dominant 7th chord - between the major third and the minor 7th). Actually, everything that happens in Locrian can be explained as if it were borrowed from some relative/parallel modes.

Paul

[chopin2015]

I suspect "lochrian mode" is usually the wrong way of thinking.  The flatted fifth is not a stable chord tone.  It is usually leading us to what happens next.  Whether it be a diminished vii chord leading back to I, or the French sixth, or the "tritone substitution" in jazz, these are all leading us to the next chord.  If someone will end a Cm piece with Cm7b5 will it sound like "lochrian mode" or will it sound like "dude hit the wrong note at the end of the song"?

why would you end a song with a chord full of tension? That is the point of the tritone, you can use it to substitute, or you can resolve to something that makes sense theoretically but may be different than your original key signature. the flat five chord can either be half diminished, or dominant quality chord. The V(or dominant) chord can be anything you want, also know as the alt chord.

[jnoelliste]

Let's not forget that the supposedly inherent dissonance of the tritone is really only a relative assessment. If a piece subscribes mostly to a tonal harmonic framework, then the tritone will be heard as a rather dissonant object. However, the late piano works of Scriabin feature perpetual use of tritone based chordal configuration. In fact, some of the most frequently employed sonorities of his late period contain 2-3 distinct interlocking tritones. With such heavy usage of the tritone, it begins to take on a level of stability in his unique harmonic system/ sound world. Per Scriabin's example, I think it is very possible to device/compose a harmonic system can give contextual stability to tritone and hence, the locrian mode as a true central, 'tonic' scale reference. Besides these hypotheticals, there are some cool locrian based sonorities that serve well to legitimately conclude pieces...for instance, ending a piece with pitch centricity on C with a GbM/C sonority. Just luv that sound!

Joseph Noelliste
Solo Pianist and Composer
www.jnoelliste.com
www.facebook.com/jnoelliste

[dcstudio]

, there are some cool locrian based sonorities that serve well to legitimately conclude pieces...for instance, ending a piece with pitch centricity on C with a GbM/C sonority. Just luv that sound!

Joseph Noelliste
Solo Pianist and Composer
www.jnoelliste.com
www.facebook.com/jnoelliste

with respect to my new friend Joe---

all I heard was "blah blah blah blah. Scriabin liked tritone substitution...blah I like the C13 b9 #11   it's sounds like the dominant and the sub 5 at the same time"....hee hee hee just kidding. Like I said theory debates are fun
 thought I would put that in lay terms