Baroque trills

[kriatina]

Hello,

I am learning at the moment a Sonata by Scarlatti
and I get “stuck” with the baroque trills whilst playing the Sonata.

My trills sound much too slow and much too “stilted”.

Whenever I train to play these trills separately I seem to be able to manage them better,
but as soon as I include them again in the Sonata, I get “stuck” again.

Has anyone else had these problems and is it due to my little experience with trills ?

How do advanced pianists deal with baroque trills?
Do they train to play the same trills hour after hour again and again
and would that give me a better chance to stop getting “stuck” with them
whilst learning to play a baroque Sonata?

Thanks from Kristina.

[kujiraya]

Can you tell if this is a problem of co-ordination with both hands together, or if it is a problem of unevenness and lack of control of the fingers +/- the development of tension?

Make sure that the fingering you are using for the trill fits in with the fingering for the surrounding passage.

If it is a problem with co-ordination of both hands together, you can try practising in stages:
i) the trill itself (using the appropriate fingering), onw hand only,
ii) the trill, as well as the surrounding passage, one hand only,
iii) the trill plus the other hand, ie, both hands together,
iv) the trill, as well as the surrounding passage, both hands together.

If the problem is unevenness and lack of control over the fingers +/- tension (usually if the trill requires awkward fingering, eg, trilling with 4-3-4-3-4-3-4-3 etc, or 5-4-5-4-5-4-5-4 etc), then certain finger exercises may help, but only do these if you are 100% sure that you can recognize tension when it develops and be sure to stop as soon as there is any tension.

[kriatina]

Thanks for the explanation, kujiraya,

This Scarlatti Sonata only involves trills with my right hand and
I don’t feel I am having a problem with coordination or my fingering
because the fingering ilself feels comfortable.

But I think my problem is with tension because the trill
involves a white and a black key i.e. 2-3-2-3-2-3-2-3 in one case
and a black and a white key 3-2-3-2-3-2-3-2 in the second case
and as a result of this unevenness the tension in my fingers develops.

Thanks again from Kristina

[brogers70]

I sometimes find my trills work out better if I concentrate my mind on the hand that is NOT doing the trill - just a mental trick to reduce tension. It only works if you can fool yourself.

[outin]

I am learning at the moment a Sonata by Scarlatti
and I get “stuck” with the baroque trills whilst playing the Sonata.

My trills sound much too slow and much too “stilted”.

You should not strive for speed. The baroque era trills are not about that, they should be clear and musical and it often seems very suitable to vary your speed in Scarlatti's trills. Play slow enough to do them well. The "as fast as possible and must be even" trills came in the later periods.

BTW, which sonata is it? Scarlatti is one of my favorite composers and I have learned so much from playing the sonatas. I'm just wondering which one to tackle next

[kriatina]

Thank you, brodgers70, I shall try to concentrate
on the score for the left hand only
whilst doing the trills with my right hand
and hopefully it helps to ease the tension.

Thank you, outin, I shall slow down even more now
and give myself much more time.

The Sonata I am learning at the moment is from
an “Introduction to Scarlatti for Beginners”
and is a very easy version of the Sonata in F minor Kk466,
which is my favourite at the moment.
I understand this “Introduction to Scarlatti for Beginners”
as an encouragement to develop from there.

Thanks again from Kristina.

[iansinclair]

You should not strive for speed. The baroque era trills are not about that, they should be clear and musical and it often seems very suitable to vary your speed in Scarlatti's trills. Play slow enough to do them well. The "as fast as possible and must be even" trills came in the later periods.

Absolutely.  Baroque trills are better termed ornaments -- and are a very different beasty from the later romantic trills.  Keep in mind two things about them: unless otherwise indicated, they begin on the note away from the home note (that is, a trill on C in C major will begin on D)(some mordents will vary this) and, perhaps more important, they are strictly in time -- that is, if, for example, the prevailing movement of the music is eighth notes, the ornament will be in sixteenth notes.

[outin]

The Sonata I am learning at the moment is from
an “Introduction to Scarlatti for Beginners”
and is a very easy version of the Sonata in F minor Kk466,
which is my favourite at the moment.
I understand this “Introduction to Scarlatti for Beginners”
as an encouragement to develop from there.

That is one of my favorites too (there are quite a few), but I haven't actually tried to play it yet...but I will one of these days

[kriatina]

Thank you, iansinclair, I am “working on it”
and I think I have now a good chance to “come to terms” with these trills 
and I  thank you again for your kind advice.

Hello again, outin, I have noticed, that my trills are already getting better
and they are much “more even” after I have started to slow down.
It also sounds much, much better.
This Sonata by Scarlatti is very thoughtful, beautiful and sensitive
and it gives great pleasure to play. Best wishes from Kristina.

[outin]

BTW. If you want to practise your trills in Scarlatti I suggest that you look at K291. It is slow, pretty and not too difficult. A good piece to concentrate on making the trills very musical. And in general to practice baroque articulation.

Not my favorite recording but the only one on piano I could find in YT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci6rpTdhycU

[kriatina]

Thanks again, outin, for your suggestion and the youtube-posting,
that gives me something to aim towards.
I have just found the score K.291 and I shall give it a go.

Thanks again from Kristina.

[kriatina]

Hello again,

I have just discovered a much better way for my (small) fingers to approach Baroque-trills:

I originally placed my two fingers (one on the "black key" and the other on the "white key"
in the Scarlatti Sonata) much too far away from each other
and that made my trills too "stale", very slow and difficult to approach every time.

Now I place the two trilling fingers much nearer to each other
and my trills don't "get stuck" anymore.

Thanks for putting me into the right direction to figure out my problem,

from Kristina.