Replacing broken string, and tuning advice.

[thehypo]

Hey there. I've read through a couple of great old threads on tuning and broken strings here and I just have a couple of questions. I have a good ear and I tune other instruments all the time; I have also observed piano tuners on a number of occasions, so I feel that I am comfortable tuning my own piano (by which I mean making minor adjustments when a couple of strings sound a bit off to keep the instrument in tune, rather than for doing my own pitch raises or probably not even full-keyboard tunings at this point).

Does anyone have any suggestions or advice in terms of what to look for in a tuning wrench? Are there any particular features that are important or to be avoided?

Secondly, my inlaws had a piano string break (a bass string) on their upright; I believe it was during tuning. The tuner took the string to reference for a replacement and has not been heard from since. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what might be done in terms of replacing the string without having the old one?

Thanks.

[hfmadopter]

Regarding the string, this might help or just call : https://www.pianostrings.com/howtoordersingle.html

As to the tuning wrench or otherwise known as a tuning hammer, look into a decent brand name under apprenctice hammers or wrenches. Those are very good, forgiving and many have interchangeable heads for older pianos that may have odd sized pin configurations. Expect to pay $70-$100 for an apprentice hammer/wrench that is worth using.

Read up on using a hammer/wrench, you don't just go about twisting and turning the pins, you can do more harm than good if used incorrectly. If you are going to be messing around with pianos a book worth owning is a book by Arthur Reblitz called Piano Servicing Tuning and Rebuilding.

Back to the missing string. If this isn't one of the single bass strings and it has a partner or two, just send in the mate to a bass string maker.

[silverwoodpianos]

Back to the missing string. If this isn't one of the single bass strings and it has a partner or two, just send in the mate to a bass string maker.

And tell them which bichord string that one is, the lower or upper bichord. Then ask for replacements for both the broken one and the sample.

[thehypo]

Thanks for the advice (I'm open to more).

[hfmadopter]

Thanks for the advice (I'm open to more).

Buy the book I suggested, you can get it through Amazon, then read it ( it could be that others may suggest other books, this one is getting old now but it's a decent book to own non the less) ! Also that link to Arledge Music Wire is now live, I had posted that in my other message but when I corrected a mistake by using the modify button it killed the link last night. I just noticed it this morning.

If you are in Canada or up along the Canadian border in the US you might like to use Vanda King but I think they sub out their string making to someone like Arledge anyway. Overseas get references there, I know nothing of string makers over there.

There are also youtube videos online about replacing broken strings.

There are two important things to know about tuning with a tuning hammer/wrench. Never lean on the pin with the tool. You can put a tremendous amount of sideways pressure on the pin with leverage causing a couple ( or more) of possible kinds of damage, not the least is severely loosening the pin in the pin block to actually snapping off a pin ( rare) or bending it.. Secondly, pull a string ever so slightly high of tune and let back down to proper tune. You can almost feel it lock into tune if you did it correctly and it will hold tune much better/longer than if you just pull a string up into tune.  Don't be surprised that if you have to pull several up that others that seemed fine before will now also have to be pulled up and if by chance you need to let down, the same is said for surrounding strings to need be let down as well. Change in tension of a string can cause this, doesn't always but it can. Don't let anyone tell you that just tuning a couple of strings on the piano won't effect overall sound, it can and especially so when using pedal.

If you get into tuning and you have a piano that you play or have regular access to then a suggestion is to touch it up at the very first signs of any note being slightly out of tune. Do that on a regular basis, in this way you may be doing a lot of touch up tuning ( good experience for you anyway) but you avoid a huge tuning where everything gets all out of whack. It has the plus advantage of a piano that always sounds great as well ! Don't expect your first few things to hold well overall, it takes technique to get the pins to lock in especially on older pianos where they may not be a tight as they could or should be. In that case summer tunings hold better than winter tunings because the wood swells a bit if you are in a humid climate.

Again, buy the book or one similar.

[indianajo]

I think tuning wrench prices are rediculous.  I have tuned my piano since the tuner refused to come because I owned a cat.  I use an extra long 5/16" allen wrench, inserted into the hex portion of a short 1/4" drive socket.  Allen wrench, $3, replacement socket, $2.  I also rough tuned my sister in law's import piano last holiday season, that was about a half tone flat. When I bought the Steinway 40 in 2010, it was horribly flat and out of tune, last tuner note was 1966.  It took seven times through and an organ as audible reference to get it right. If your piano is not far out, you can tune the high strings to the bass strings, since they don't sag as badly.   Use 2 rolls of quarters to hold the notes down and the dampers up.  Pluck the strings with the right fingernail instead of using two of those felt dampers the pros use. 
As an experienced mechanic, I am aware of the problems of cross-torquing the bolt (peg) which would pull the corners off a hex bolt head just like it would wallow out a peg hole.  Required a certain motion of the hand to avoid that.  Stiff wrist thumb aligned with wrench shaft and laying on it. Four fingers grip the wrench shaft.  Rotate the elbow from the shoulder.  If the peg is stuck, supporting the shaft aligned with the peg with the other hand while you stand up, is useful.  Keeps the wrench from wiggling in the wrong dimension.    I use the left hand to turn pianos pegs,
Otherwise, agree with everything hmfadopter said.  If you do run into a piano that grossly flat, ease up to pitch over several days, keeps you from going too far.
For sure wear safety glasses, if a string breaks it may fly around.  Bass strings may throw short wire pieces around.    
I'm still nervous about replacing a broken string.  There are lots of references to online videos that my computer is too small to play. Also pianoworld.com requires the password to my retirement accounts to talk to them. To install a new treble wire  I'm thinking of pre-coiling up the end of the wire with a wire tightner device salvaged from an old tortilla chip extruder. (They use music wire to cut the chips off the die). I'm thinking of grinding the teeth off a pair of channellock pliers, so I can grip the peg and pull it straight out. Then a nylon head  hammer to put it back.  The Steinway 40 came with a spliced A#5 string that goes "boink" even though in tune, so I'm going to have to deal with it some winter- maybe this one. I bought some piano wire of the right diameter from mcmaster.com.   I realize that the music fairy hasn't blessed this wire, but hey, it is not a bass string.  

[silverwoodpianos]

Cost for a good solid tuning hammer to turn the tuning pins properly without damaging the hole in the block. Cost = $100.00

Cost for restringing and new tuning pins on your average six foot grand after the tuning pin holes have been damaged by someone who thinks that a tuning hammer is too expensive.
 Cost =$5000.00

Cost for advice on a chat forum from a 40 year technician and restorer.
Cost= $000.00

Value of advice: priceless

[hfmadopter]

I think tuning wrench prices are ridiculous.  I have tuned my piano since the tuner refused to come because I owned a cat.  I use an extra long 5/16" allen wrench, inserted into the hex portion of a short 1/4" drive socket.  Otherwise, agree with everything hmfadopter said.  If you do run into a piano that grossly flat, ease up to pitch over several days, keeps you from going too far.  

I've read and reread your message, slept over night and now looking at it again and I come up short of a reply regarding your adapted tuning wrench. I have nothing to say and I don't know your circumstance so I'll just leave it at that.

Back to the OP, I reiterate to buy the book and read it ! It will describe proper tools, the reasoning and their usage. The tip of a proper tuning hammer fits very deeply onto a pianos pins and offers geat grip and support, also offering the correct torque and best feel for the pins movement. Get the right tool for the job. I've figured for myself if I'm going to do this, not being a professional myself though I've worked with some, that I need to offer the piano the best shot at correct procedures, starting with the tuning hammer.. You won't find a single professional tuner/tech out there without at least one and most have more than one. Has to be a reason, if they could do a better job with $6 worth of tools I'm sure they would be delighted at that option.

To indianajo, just change the string and get that experience behind you. They are not hard to do if you use some common sense. As to forming the pin end of the string, just get a tuning pin. Put your vice grips to good use by not grinding them down but to hold an extra tuning pin ( can be used or new) and use the tuning pin to form the coil at the pin end of the wire ( you want about thee turns, put a right angle bend at the end of the wire and insert it into the tuning pin and make tight wraps keeping the coils against each other). In a pinch I've wrapped the wire into a pair of long nosed pliers but the pin works better.. I'd mention the tool that's made for it but I figure you like enginuity better. The tool offers a nice tight set or I should say uniform set of coils though and it's not very expensive..

[indianajo]

Well, I have been tuning the Sohmer 25 years since the piano tuner became hard to hire. I'm waiting for something awful to happen.  Could be any day now.
There was no internet in the days when I started tuning my own piano, and professional journals, the old way to communicate,  never made it out here to the middle.   Nice thing about diy, you don't have to take a day off work to meet the piano tuner.  
Thanks for the talk through of prewinding the A5 string. That is enough to get me started. Now, just to find a piano on the curb out for the garbage pickup so I can pull a tuning peg. 

[daniloperusina]

Indeed!
If anyone wants to be a do-it-yourself self-made man, why don't you do it intelligently?
#1 Buy the proper tools. Too expensive? Look at second-hand market.
#2 Get hold of books, instruction videos, whatever.
#3 Practice on an inexpensive piano. Pianos are given away for free nowadays.
#4 Take lessons from a professional tuner.

But if you really want to learn how to tune a piano properly, and do minor repairs like replacing strings etc, minimum one year of lessons and practicing. That's just to get you started. It's really kind of complex. In, say, 1750, you could reasonably be expected to be able to tune your own harpsichord. But since, say, 1850, the increased complexity of tuning put an end to that and piano tuning has been exclusive to professionally trained people ever since.

Guitarists in general don't even know how to tune a guitar properly. They don't know the relationship between frets, string thickness, string height above fretboard and equal temperament. And on a piano, there are no frets, it's just aural. Add to that an inherent "false" scale of overtones in each string, an avarage 70kg tension on each string, pins of steel that flexes, strings that need to be made sure to be equally tensioned over their entire length (hence the quite hefty banging on each note during tuning) and so on.

So do it, but do it right! Be clever and get hold of the facts.

I suddenly think of a student of mine who's started with the Aria from the Goldberg Varations. She became frustrated with the ornaments. "Why can't he just write out the notes he wants me to play?" Well, he did. You just don't understand how to read it yet.

[daniloperusina]

Indianajo, with all due respect, your advice is awful!:)
One thing I don't understand is, in 25 years you haven't been willing to spend the one-off cost to buy a proper tuning hammer? If I would have been in any way related to you, I'd buy a $2000 luxury one for you as a present and immensely enjoy your reaction when trying it out! "Omg, I can now turn the pins without the least amoun of effort! I don't even have to worry about ruining the threads of the pins! And it's so fast and precise that I can now "tune" my pianos in a quarter of the time I used to need!!" -:)

EDIT And the very least thing you can do is to stop tuning from organs, they are not good as aural references for tuning pianos. Instead, download the free software tunelab97 from here: https://www.tunelab-world.com/
Find the "agerage" tuning setup somewhere in the menu, let the program play each of the 88 notes for you aurally, and go from there. Much better.

[hfmadopter]

Well, I have been tuning the Sohmer 25 years since the piano tuner became hard to hire. I'm waiting for something awful to happen.  Could be any day now.
  
Thanks for the talk through of prewinding the A5 string. That is enough to get me started. Now, just to find a piano on the curb out for the garbage pickup so I can pull a tuning peg.  

This guy describes it well enough for me and offers all the repair parts for various methods of fixing damage to pin blocks or the entire block. It's worth a read, I won't link you you to videos since you say you don't have that kind of access. While Steve doesn't seem to sell lesser quantity of pins, others do, you can buy a dozen pins for $10 elsewhere just FWIW. But here is Steves link anyway, have a read : https://www.stevespianoservice.com/Online-Piano-Parts-Catalog/piano-tuning-pins-drills-pinblocks-and-treatments.htm . I know you have been doing this for 25 years your way but just a word to the wise non the less. Reconsider your position perhaps ! I'm not going to harp on you but just so you do know what the fuss is about, people do do damgae to pianos using similar methods as you are doing.

I've been touch up tuning my piano for as long as you have been tuning and more recently than that started doing my own repairs and full tunings since my tuner moved locations to another part of the state ( i've worked with him as well). I have a tuner and supplier just down the street from me as well, willing to sell me parts and give advice. Incidentally, I own a Schaff tuning hammer and I helped on the partial rebuild of my grand piano more than 30 years ago now with the rebuilder I bought it from. An elderly gentleman willing to coach me and help him on the partial with my labor as a reduction in selling price.. Nice old guy, he got to be friends with myself and family and we went to some concerts, his wife and mine and us two to see some great pianists. In life we always seem to meet the right people at the right time, it seems .

[hfmadopter]

Here is a link to the book I suggested. It's worth having on hand and while it can't get into every specific brand and model of piano it does cover lot's of general techniques in reasonable detail. I use it a lot myself. If anyone knows of one better or even maybe better for specific techniques, just start listing them below this one perhaps, we can build a library of links right here !

: https://www.amazon.com/Piano-Servicing-Tuning-Rebuilding-Professional/dp/1879511029/ref=cm_lmf_tit_1

[indianajo]

Thanks for the link to the pin block repair parts page.  the Sohmer was sold to me "as is where is" in 1982 at a $800 discount, with no dealer support since I lived 140 miles out from KC, MO.  It has had two notes that sagged in pitch in about a month, since I bought it. The KY piano tuner installed a $140 damp chaser, which did exactly nothing for the problem. He was tuning flat to save time, too, I've discovered since I got the organ. Good riddance. I will think about an oversize peg or  reaming and installing a bushing in one of those notes, and bringing the Sohmer back from the junk status it is on now. 
I had a little trouble tuning the top octave of the way out 1941 Steinway in octaves from the bass strings.  I knew about the out of tune overtones and had heard of stretch on organforum.com.  One key (sharps and flats) would sound good on top octave, another wouldn't. Tuning the Steinway in unison to the pure sine waves of the Hammond H100 eliminated that problem and made all notes very pleasurable. It is possible the H100 has stretch, it was made to sell to churches where piano/organ duos were pretty common practice.  My computer doesn't generate audio, thank you.  When updated to modern free software it won't even echo typed input, so my op system is about 6 years old.  Tuning is all a great mystery and I haven't been through to proper apprenticeship program, but (deleted).   When I had money, the only tuner around (and he was in the next state) dissed me, forget him.  Now that I'm living on a bit of nothing, with infinite time to practice music,  I'm not going to start buying expert skill soon. As you said, pianos are almost free, old and in the way.  I overpaid for the Steinway about $500, just out of respect for the lady that listed it again instead of trashing it after the pro turned up his nose because of the child impacted veneer.   It was 4 days from donation, when I bought it. 
Oh and thanks again hmfaadopter for the straight info. There are several sites that google likes, where the answer to every piano question is "Hire a qualified piano tuner". Yeah, right after you move to the coast or the UK. 

[hfmadopter]

Thanks for the link to the pin block repair parts page.  the Sohmer was sold to me "as is where is" in 1982 at a $800 discount, with no dealer support since I lived 140 miles out from KC, MO.  It has had two notes that sagged in pitch in about a month, since I bought it. The KY piano tuner installed a $140 damp chaser, which did exactly nothing for the problem. He was tuning flat to save time, too, I've discovered since I got the organ. Good riddance. I will think about  
Oh and thanks again hmfaadopter for the straight info. There are several sites that google likes, where the answer to every piano question is "Hire a qualified piano tuner". Yeah, right after you move to the coast or the UK. 

The  organ may well be stretch tuned.

Regarding your two loose pins. Have they been driven deeper into the pin block ? Just a thought. And I understand about being in the middle of the country with less potential for qualified people to be located around the corner. A person gets to doing things for themselves in that circumstance. I get it, though I wonder about that tuning hammer/wrench of yours non the less. And there is something to be said for doing things yourself as well, there is no law that says you have to hire a pro tuner yet. Still, trained and qulified people really do know what they are talking about. I've been around a few and respect their opinions greatly. Especially when they have been in the trade so long they actually know something about my old Henry F Miller ( this guy down the road from me has one all rebuilt in his show room)..

You made me laugh about the tuner who tuned flat, some do that. It's not to save time I don't think, at least not a reputable tuner. In some cases they feel the piano won't handle being pulled up or that they may break strings. Some charge for two tunings if the piano is dropped in pitch too much, since they won't pull it up in one whack.

FWIW, we had a guy around here who tuned flat anyway because that was the one tuning fork he owned ! That's what made me laugh when you mentioned tuning flat. My piano teacher way back then got stuck with him just exactly one time and that was it for that relationship.

[indianajo]

Yes, having a piano tuned flat is a real inhibitor to playing by ear.  All the LP's are a quarter tone off the key of Db or Ab or something.  When I tuned the Steinway up to the organ on 2010 (in about 4 passes, can't go too fast) suddenly pop songs were in the key of D or C or F or A, easy to pick out chords for.  I'm learning a whole new skill in my sixties, playing things by ear.  Why the tuner was doing that he never said, but the Sohmer was 1-5 years old, he should have been able to pull it up. Maybe the store had it flat when I bought it.  I picked it up at a different location than the one where I also tried out the Steinway 44 and Everett 44 before buying the Sohmer 39. Didn't play it much the day I bought it, and no other pianos at that location. I  had a long drive home with a U-haul trailer ahead. 
Will try getting a nylon head hammer and firming up the two loose notes on the Sohmer with it next time I tune it (probably this winter).  Maybe the hammer will have  atuning key on it.  Maybe not, I'm perfectly capable of filing out a Craftsman 1/4 socket to have a taper in it, instead of importing some bit of trash metal from *****. 
Thanks for straight answers by someone not passionate about keeping the tricks of the trade secret.  Until you, hmfaadopter, I had been getting better piano mechanics info from handyczech on organforum.  There is one sticky key on the Steinway, in dry weather only, that he thinks I can handle without help.  I made all the special tools to rebuild my automatic transmissions, building a bushing spreader should be a lark. 

[kriatina]

I tune my piano by using an electronic tuner,
(which I bought straight after buying my piano)
and I also use my ear, and in combination I find this o.k.

At first I too experienced two accidents with broken strings.

I was told a good tip to avoid this happening,
is to first release the tension on the string
BEFORE tightening it to the required tone.
 
Secondly, I make absolutely sure I am tightening
the correct string which I am tuning and listening to,
because otherwise one can tighten the wrong string by mistake
and then easily tighten it to breaking point.

Another point is to make sure I feel "relaxed"
on the day I am tuning my piano.

These tips have saved me breaking further strings
and I hope this helps and I wish you good luck,

best wishes from Kristina.

[hfmadopter]

Thanks for straight answers by someone not passionate about keeping the tricks of the trade secret.  Until you, hmfaadopter, I had been getting better piano mechanics info from handyczech on organforum.  There is one sticky key on the Steinway, in dry weather only, that he thinks I can handle without help.  I made all the special tools to rebuild my automatic transmissions, building a bushing spreader should be a lark. 

Any time but please don't mistake me for a professional tuner ! I've worked with them in the past and I bounce ideas off of them even today but I am not in that business, which becomes evident when we get deep into a subject ( even here at pianostreet), they really do know way more than us ya know ! My piano is very old, it requires TLC, so I give it TLC and have been for a long time.

That said, if dry weather is an issue, have you looked to make sure something hasn't loosened up and a couple of hammers are touching together causing the sticky situation. I would expect swollen parts in humid weather and loose parts in dry conditions. Shanks can warp with humidity changes as well.

[indianajo]

Thanks hfma adopter. Yes the sticky key, when it is happening you can flick the hammer with your finger and it goes in and out fine. No visible rubs in the upper parts.   I think the sticky part is in the key itself, or maybe the jack.  I'm heating the house now in a way that produces a lot of humidity lately, so maybe the best thing to do to that problem is nothing . 
Thanks, Kritiana, for the loosen/tighten advice. I will think about that.  I have noticed myself working on the wrong peg occasionally, but if you go a little bit at a time and listen carefully, you can catch yourself before you make too big of a mistake. 

[thehypo]

Thanks to all for the great advice. If anyone could provide a small clarification on two points:
hfmadopter suggested "look into a decent brand name under apprenctice hammers or wrenches" - can anyone advise of what some "decent brands" of hammers are?

Secondly, hfmadopter also indicated "Never lean on the pin with the tool". I am assuming by lean hfmadopter means not to apply lateral pressure to the handle of the hammer because you could end up bending the pin from vertical towards that direction, as opposed to not leaning vertically on the pin (i.e. putting pressure downward on the actual head and pin).

I assume this is the same principle as using a torque wrench to tighting the nuts on a wheel - with that, you want to keep one hand to support the ratchet head so that your twisting motion with the handle only applys twisting force to the pin, and not a pulling force that might bend it, correct?

I will admit, your posts have scared me a bit from trying to tune my piano. I'm not so concerned with the theory behind tuning being a problem, as I have a very good ear and I generally tune string instruments by ear, and I only intended to really fix single problem strings after a pro tuning, but in terms of the risk of damage, along with a more complicated physical technique than I expected, I've gotten a bit weary of trying piano tuning... undecided right now...

Thanks again for all the great advice.

[hfmadopter]

Thanks to all for the great advice. If anyone could provide a small clarification on two points:
hfmadopter suggested "look into a decent brand name under apprenctice hammers or wrenches" - can anyone advise of what some "decent brands" of hammers are?

Secondly, hfmadopter also indicated "Never lean on the pin with the tool". I am assuming by lean hfmadopter means not to apply lateral pressure to the handle of the hammer because you could end up bending the pin from vertical towards that direction, as opposed to not leaning vertically on the pin (i.e. putting pressure downward on the actual head and pin).

I assume this is the same principle as using a torque wrench to tighting the nuts on a wheel - with that, you want to keep one hand to support the ratchet head so that your twisting motion with the handle only applys twisting force to the pin, and not a pulling force that might bend it, correct?

I will admit, your posts have scared me a bit from trying to tune my piano. I'm not so concerned with the theory behind tuning being a problem, as I have a very good ear and I generally tune string instruments by ear, and I only intended to really fix single problem strings after a pro tuning, but in terms of the risk of damage, along with a more complicated physical technique than I expected, I've gotten a bit weary of trying piano tuning... undecided right now...

Thanks again for all the great advice.

This page may help you to understand about the tips used in tuning hammers at least. If you fish around at the site some more you may also learn more about hammers, tuning etc.   https://www.pianoparts.com/tips/

I like the brand name Schaff-Hale and that is what my hammer is, sporting a changeable tip design to which the whole head unscrews off the handle. Some people like a swivel head, removeable shanks, extendable shanks and so on. In the end it comes down to personal taste. I've had mine a while now and am sorry to say that the exact model I no longer know ! But really you should seek out your own favorite anyway, the Schaff name is a good one.

I think in Rannik's thread about learning to tune his own piano I linked to a video of a professional tuner tuning an upright piano. In that video he is using the hammer correctly. Some less professional tuners (IMO) when they set the pin they put the wrong pressure on the hammer with a sideways pressure and down force at the hammer handle. Never put down ward pressure on the handle ( thinking grand piano here, so force toward the pin block otherwise) at the handle.

Edit:

This page shows a bunch of Hale Tuning levers, mine is a Schaff- Hale but it is most like the Hale Student/Craftsman No8 on this page. I like it a lot, it may even be the same tool : https://www.schaffpiano.com/catalog/technicians_tools.pdf  The page shows many of the options available.

[hfmadopter]

Thanks hfma adopter. Yes the sticky key, when it is happening you can flick the hammer with your finger and it goes in and out fine. No visible rubs in the upper parts.   I think the sticky part is in the key itself, or maybe the jack.  I'm heating the house now in a way that produces a lot of humidity lately, so maybe the best thing to do to that problem is nothing . 
Thanks, Kritiana, for the loosen/tighten advice. I will think about that.  I have noticed myself working on the wrong peg occasionally, but if you go a little bit at a time and listen carefully, you can catch yourself before you make too big of a mistake. 

Jacks letoffs, pins, bushings, who knows really. You just going to have to dig in ! I brought up the hammers because I've run into it before where they are just barely touching each other.

[keys60]

I use a nylon Schaff-Hale adjustable length. Its a good hammer although hammers can get personal. You can pay over 300 bucks for a light carbon fiber that some people swear by. Nothing wrong with wood either.