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Was Beethoven black? (Read 2293 times)

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Was Beethoven black?
« on: February 03, 2013, 01:36:35 AM »
Okay, so my dad was driving me home right?  And his friend called him, and the phone was on speaker.  So he was like,

Guy:  Hey man where the heck are you?

Dad:  I'm driving my son home from his audition

Guy:  Did you know Beethoven was black?

Me:  What the heck are you talking about?!

Guy:  Yeah man, Beethoven was black!  And so was Jesus!

Me:  Yeah, okay...  ::)

Guy:  No seriously, Ill send you a video on this!

*Dad hangs up*

Dad:  Beethoven wasn't black.

Me:  Yeah, I know...

So was Beethoven black?
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Offline patrickd

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #1 on: February 03, 2013, 01:48:29 AM »
No.

Offline chopin2015

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #2 on: February 03, 2013, 02:05:31 AM »
No but Lisz was... ::)
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #3 on: February 03, 2013, 02:25:41 AM »
Live large, die large.  Leave a giant coffin.

Offline chopin2015

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #4 on: February 03, 2013, 02:58:20 AM »
Idk! Hes dead so no way to find out! There are pictures of him but they are black and white so no way to tell ..what if he was not really white! I may be acting upon your sense of humor!
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #5 on: February 03, 2013, 03:59:30 AM »
He probably turned black while decomposing in the earth.
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Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #6 on: February 03, 2013, 04:51:56 AM »
I google searched it and I keep getting these articles that don't really answer the question.

"you see, when talking about whether or not Beethoven was black, we first have to understand what being white and black means.  You see,-"

You're outta here!!! >:(
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Offline chopin2015

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #7 on: February 03, 2013, 05:22:49 AM »
Lololol

Ya crack me up!

"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline p2u_

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #8 on: February 03, 2013, 06:26:25 AM »
So was Beethoven black?

Who ever said he wasn't? Just listen to this (start from 5:52)... The birth of boogie woogie, rock & roll, ragtime, jazz, whatever...

Paul
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Offline chopin2015

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #9 on: February 03, 2013, 03:49:57 PM »


You're outta here!!! >:(


Did you mean something specific here?
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline p2u_

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #10 on: February 03, 2013, 04:19:54 PM »
I searched some more through Google, and there has been written a lot of nonsense about the issue with lots of speculations. I don't understand why people would want to find a (pseudo-)scientific answer to that question. Isn't music color blind anymore? He is said to have been Flemish (just as I am by birth), but if he turned out to have been African, it certainly wouldn't change my admiration for his genius.

Paul
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Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #11 on: February 03, 2013, 05:17:47 PM »
I searched some more through Google, and there has been written a lot of nonsense about the issue with lots of speculations. I don't understand why people would want to find a (pseudo-)scientific answer to that question. Isn't music color blind anymore? He is said to have been Flemish (just as I am by birth), but if he turned out to have been African, it certainly wouldn't change my admiration for his genius.

Paul

I'm not trying to say that being black or white affects the quality of his music, I just wanted to know if there was any truth to what that guy said on the phone.
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Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #12 on: February 03, 2013, 05:19:29 PM »

Did you mean something specific here?

I say that whenever something ridiculous happens.  Like...

Some kid:  Yo I just learned Scriabins third piano concerto in a day

Me:  you're outta here!!! >:(
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Offline outin

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #13 on: February 03, 2013, 05:31:23 PM »

Offline p2u_

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #14 on: February 03, 2013, 05:50:38 PM »
I'm not trying to say that being black or white affects the quality of his music, I just wanted to know if there was any truth to what that guy said on the phone.

I wouldn't be surprised if he were right, but of course, I'd like to hear some solid arguments, not rumors.

1) It is my sad conclusion that "history" seems to be mostly a pack of lies for propaganda purposes. Especially in Beethoven's time, the white race was the default for everything that was good, so admitting that Beethoven could have been anything else than the default would have been absurd.
2) Flanders (where Beethoven's roots are) was part of Holland at that time and had been occupied for over 200 years by Spain, which had links to Africa. I wouldn't even be surprised if some percentage in my own blood turns out to be Spanish, although I couldn't care less.

Paul
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Offline chopin2015

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #15 on: February 03, 2013, 06:03:15 PM »
I say that whenever something ridiculous happens.  Like...

Some kid:  Yo I just learned Scriabins third piano concerto in a day

Me:  you're outta here!!! >:(


Woooord! Haha i was scared you didnt like me anymore!

But seriously it doesnt matter if bee was white or black, if he was white that just makes a poor case to like or dislike soneone! but mostly germans, i think...lol im just kidding!

I am fully russian with lots of relatives that fought world war 2, so i can honestly say it would be a lot cooler if bee was internatinally multi-cultural, which i guess you could say he is because everyone enjoys his music, no matter the race or culture, as long as you have the intelligence to see it and like it, unlike some elites who said beethoven's more elaborate works he only wrote for his own pleasure and taste and did not care to appeal to others..see? But if he didnt like it, how would he know what anyone liked?
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline ranniks

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #16 on: February 03, 2013, 08:51:23 PM »
Does it matter if he was black? If you are worried about black composers, fret no more, Scott Joplin and the jazz masters have covered that art long ago. ;)

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #17 on: February 03, 2013, 11:31:06 PM »
Does it matter if he was black? If you are worried about black composers, fret no more, Scott Joplin and the jazz masters have covered that art long ago. ;)

Not really, I was just curious.

What I think everyone will think if someone told me that he was black:

--------------------------------------

Some guy:  yeah Beethoven was black

Me:  wow that's cool, his music is soo much better now!

Or...

Me:  wow his music sucks!


What would really happen:

-----------------------------

Some guy:  yeah, Beethoven was black

Me:  oh that's cool I didn't know that.
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Offline j_menz

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #18 on: February 04, 2013, 12:26:16 AM »
If he were black, his various portraitists have some explaining to do.

Of course it is possible that he had some "black" ancestry somewhere, but how much is needed to qualify?
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline p2u_

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #19 on: February 04, 2013, 04:37:11 AM »
If he were black, his various portraitists have some explaining to do.

Of course it is possible that he had some "black" ancestry somewhere, but how much is needed to qualify?

Some portraitists already did some explaining but they may have been boycotted or censored. Here is a list of sources with pages indicated. I verified some, not all:

Beethoven: The Black-a-Moors of Europe

EDIT: @ rachmaninoff_forever:

You are advised not to argue about this with anyone (especially people in authority) in the conservative surroundings of Conservatories and Music Colleges; it won't be appreciated. Just saying.

Paul
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Offline j_menz

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #20 on: February 04, 2013, 04:43:26 AM »
Some portraitists already did some explaining but they may have been boycotted or censored. Here is a list of sources with pages indicated. I verified some, not all:

Beethoven: The Black-a-Moors of Europe

Paul

The article seems reasonable, though on the same basis I am Swedish.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline outin

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #21 on: February 04, 2013, 04:45:25 AM »


Of course it is possible that he had some "black" ancestry somewhere, but how much is needed to qualify?

In most parts of the world this would be a very relevant question, but in US I assume 0,00000000001% would be enough  ;D

Offline j_menz

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #22 on: February 04, 2013, 04:52:38 AM »
in US I assume 0,00000000001% would be enough  ;D

Even less: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/mixed/onedrop.html

Of course on that basis, we are all black as our remote ancestors all come from Africa.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #23 on: February 04, 2013, 05:27:30 AM »
Some portraitists already did some explaining but they may have been boycotted or censored. Here is a list of sources with pages indicated. I verified some, not all:

Beethoven: The Black-a-Moors of Europe

EDIT: @ rachmaninoff_forever:

You are advised not to argue about this with anyone (especially people in authority) in the conservative surroundings of Conservatories and Music Colleges; it won't be appreciated. Just saying.

Paul

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, I just asked a question.

And why the heck do they get mad at you when talking about race?


It seems like whenever someone talks about race and/or sexual orientation, everyone gets all sensitive and they don't wanna talk about it.  Like dude, it's not a big deal.
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Offline j_menz

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #24 on: February 04, 2013, 05:34:40 AM »
It seems like whenever someone talks about race and/or sexual orientation, everyone gets all sensitive and they don't wanna talk about it.  Like dude, it's not a big deal.

For some people, in some places still and throughout an all too often troubled history it has, sadly, been a very "big deal" indeed. It is the memory of this, and the residue we are still burdened with, that makes these things "touchy" subjects for many people.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline outin

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #25 on: February 04, 2013, 05:35:59 AM »

It seems like whenever someone talks about race and/or sexual orientation, everyone gets all sensitive and they don't wanna talk about it.  Like dude, it's not a big deal.

I think you would benefit form getting out into the world for a while...You would see that when race really is not such a big deal people don't feel necessary to talk so much about it.

Not so with sexual orientation, even in the most "liberal" countries. I doubt many would publicly dare to question one's legal rights to have relationships with the same sex around here, but the discussion still gets into a rather emotional (not very pragmatic) level when adoption or artificial fertilization come to the picture.

Offline p2u_

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #26 on: February 04, 2013, 05:37:55 AM »
I'm not trying to argue with anyone, I just asked a question.
I know you are not doing that now. I just warn you in advance with nothing but kind intentions.

And why the heck do they get mad at you when talking about race?


It seems like whenever someone talks about race and/or sexual orientation, everyone gets all sensitive and they don't wanna talk about it.  Like dude, it's not a big deal.

Unfortunately, I don't have the power to eliminate the hypocrisy that exists in this world. As you know, we are all equal, but somewhere in the back of many people's heads, some are just more equal than others. (c) That's what makes this subject a taboo.

Paul
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Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #27 on: February 04, 2013, 05:48:05 AM »
I think you would benefit form getting out into the world for a while...You would see that when race really is not such a big deal people don't feel necessary to talk so much about it.



Are you implying that I think it's a big deal?



Kid:  hey did you hear about that guy with the thing yesterday?

Me:  yeah, who is he?

Kid:  you don't know him?  Dang, I don't remember his name.

Me:  well what does he look like?

Kid:  you know, the tall black guy with the curly hair?

Me:  ooh, I know who you're talking about!
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Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #28 on: February 04, 2013, 05:50:54 AM »
For some people, in some places still and throughout an all too often troubled history it has, sadly, been a very "big deal" indeed. It is the memory of this, and the residue we are still burdened with, that makes these things "touchy" subjects for many people.

I can't think of anything a person could go through that would make talking about whether or not Beethoven was black a touchy subject.

Unless if...

911:  how may I help you?

Me:  Beethoven just killed my family!

911:  what does he look like?

Me:  *height, body weight, age* and he was white

*a month later in court*

Judge:  we're sentencing you to death!

Beethoven:  NOOOOOO

Me:  that's what you get for murdering my family you loser!

Beethoven:  but it wasn't me!  You have the wrong guy!

*A couple years later*

Detective:  yeah, we got the wrong guy.  Beethoven was actually black.

Me:  NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Live large, die large.  Leave a giant coffin.

Offline j_menz

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #29 on: February 04, 2013, 05:54:44 AM »
I can't think of anything a person could go through that would make talking about whether or not Beethoven was black a touchy subject.

Try a Beethoven fan who is also a member of the KKK (or equivalent bunch of nutters).

Though "touchy" may be an understatement.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #30 on: February 04, 2013, 05:57:40 AM »
Try a Beethoven fan who is also a member of the KKK (or equivalent bunch of nutters).

Though "touchy" may be an understatement.

If it's a touchy subject for a KKK member then does that mean we can't talk about it because he's racist?  

Kid:  hey guys, let's watch out what we say here.  We don't want to offend a KKK member, despite the fact that he insults all of us by default.
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Offline outin

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #31 on: February 04, 2013, 06:01:19 AM »
Are you implying that I think it's a big deal?


We already had this discussion earlier, remember? :)

You live in a society that tries to pretend it's not a big deal while still dealing with repercussions and attitudes from earlier times when it was a big deal. I could write an essay for you but unfortunately I have to go to work now  :(

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #32 on: February 04, 2013, 06:02:53 AM »
We already had this discussion earlier, remember? :)

 Vaguely?
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Offline outin

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #33 on: February 04, 2013, 06:06:16 AM »

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #34 on: February 04, 2013, 06:06:55 AM »
Edited my post, have to go now...

Have fun at work!
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #35 on: February 04, 2013, 07:37:06 PM »
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline outin

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #36 on: February 04, 2013, 07:42:31 PM »
Have fun at work!

Work was not fun, we had a few incidents and had to go back in the evening after my piano lesson, but the lesson went surprisingly well...my teacher even said I could play the invention a bit slower and the tempo would still be fine  :)

But I have solved the problem in this thread...Beethoven was not black. Couldn't be since I like black music and I don't like B's  :P

Offline teran

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #37 on: February 05, 2013, 12:43:45 AM »
L to tha V to tha B stylin on yo b*tch ass

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #38 on: February 05, 2013, 12:44:33 AM »


But I have solved the problem in this thread...Beethoven was not black. Couldn't be since I like black music and I don't like B's  :P

Alright thanks bro.  I mean...  SIS!

Now for my next question...

Was Liszt Aborigine?
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Offline j_menz

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #39 on: February 05, 2013, 12:56:33 AM »
Was Liszt Aborigine?

Hungarian Aborigine, yes.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #40 on: February 05, 2013, 02:06:41 AM »
Live large, die large.  Leave a giant coffin.

Offline j_menz

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Re: Was Beethoven black?
«Reply #41 on: February 05, 2013, 02:44:44 AM »
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant